The Graduate: a very different Taiping timeline

yboxman

Banned

First of all an introduction- this is an unapologetic China Wank. What that means is not that I'm throwing plausibility out of the window but that I am choosing a POD which can plausibly lead to China being spared the century of Opium addiction, civil war, foreign invasion, misrule, and warlordism. I admit however that the 15 years following the POD are tweaked towards that end and while plausible is unlikely to occur exactly as I am positing it.

That does not mean I'm running a "Meiji China" TL. The success of the Japanese to modernize, industrialize and become a colonial power in their own right during the period of high imperialism is due to a wide variety of factors which China could not imitate. These include:
1. Pre existing high literacy and manafucturing.
2. Cultural and ethnic homogeneity.
3. A healthier high protein diet requiring less manpower to harvest (seafood)
4. Greater availability of coal and hydroelectric power per capita.
5. Exceptional forest reserves which were never endangered by population pressure (the 80% of Japan which is uncultivatable is usually thought of as a weakness. Not so. Or at least not for the early stages of industrialization when charcoal and naval stores are of critical importance).
6. Geographic isolation reducing military burden
7. China first drawing the attention of the colonial powers away from Japan, then serving as an abject lesson of the consequences of failure, and finally serving as a captive market and source of tribute for Japan's nascent industries. Japan was able to industrialize as much as it did because China did not. Japan was able to import rice to support a growing population- because China could not.

However, China, does not need to be as successful as Japan was in order to become a wanked up superpower. It just needs to be as successful as Siam/Thailand (just look at OTL). And that 19th century China is capable of doing- if it can avoid three things:

First, Qing rule. There is a mound of research explaining why Prince Gong's self strengthening movement failed. But what it boils down to was that the failure was not a defect of Qing rule- it was a feature.

The ruling elite of Qing China, the Banner people, however Sinified they might appear still viewed themselves and were viewed by their subjects as alien. The Ethnic Manchu and allied ethnicities and Han collaborators in China proper kept themselves separate by dress, name, language, perks available by birth, and were literally FORBIDDEN by the Qing government going into business or integrating into the general Han population.

The Qing could not reform successfully since such reform would empower the masses and lead to the end of Banner people (and Han collaborator) privilege and possibly survival. If they tried the Banner people would somehow find a figurehead to stage a coup- as occurred in 1898. Junkers, nobles and Samuries in Prussia, Russia and Japan were a similar burden to reform- but they were viewed as more legitimate by the commoners and felt sufficiently secure to advance reform to some extent- and if they lost power they could always fade into the general population rather than be massacred (A simplification- but true enough for all that)

Second, and a function of the first is the lack of a pressure valve for the Malthusian horrors which pushed China in the direction of a cycle of famine, revolt and slow recovery from the 1820s onwards. Those cycles swallowed up any surplus capital which might have gone towards industrialization (as occurred in Japan) or external conquest.

Two such pressure valves exist. The first are Manchuria and Mongolia which if opened to Han immigration fully could absorb population growth for nearly a generation before the cycle resumed. But the Qing kept those outlets closed until 1895 and were of two minds about Han immigration until the very end.

The other outlet, immigration overseas, was also kept closed by the Qing until 1860 in theory and until the late 1890s was viewed with great hostility and suffered from official and unofficial restrictions. And at any rate by that time settled white populations, even in the tropics, proved hostile to Asian immigration. What if Chinese immigration starts earlier? Might larger overseas communities backed by a more powerful China gain sufficient influence to keep the door open?

If these pressure valves are opened then Chnia has nearly 50 years before the pressure Valves close again. During that time China might industrialize and prove able to import grain from the new world and the Tropics to feed a growing population. Or it might embrace a population control policy similliar to OTL China. Or it might become strong enough to wage war on it's neighbors and colonize them as Japan did OTL. Or it could develop a proto Green revolution and raise agricultural output.

Third- Qing rule must be removed in a way which does not wreck the country and which replaces it with rulers with broad based support, centralized command structure, a rational (or at least functionally insane) worldview, pro-technology and modernization agenda and open to later reform into some sort of market oriented and semi-representative government.

OTLs Taiping revolution was the worst possible thing which could have happened to China. It held the seeds of it's own defeat at inception and even had it succeeded would have been worse for China than the Qing. Worse, it sucked up all the revolutionary potential of South-Central China for a generation and discredited the concept of anti-Qing revolution amongst the Han Gentry, effectively prolonging Qing rule for a generation.

It did, however, succeed in killing 30-50 million Chinese, plunging the Qing into inescapable debt, destroy much of the infrastructure of central China and lay down the seeds of later Warlordism,

So let's look over both the strengths and Weaknesses of the Taiping:

Strength:
1. An ideology which rationalized the land hunger of the peasants.
2. A religion which provided a rationalization for fighting the Qing and potential common ground with the West.
3. An ethnic core of Hakka which were largely loyal to each other without being viewed as alien by Han outside the Southeast.
4. A clear Anti-Manchu sentiment which potentially translates into appeal to the Han population.
5. An ability to mobilize and organize large numbers of recruits into well motivated armies.


Weaknesses:
1. Decentralized command and constant warfare between the de facto leaders.
2. A figurehead leader who lacked the experience or capabilities to lead and the confidence to delegate- but who could still sabotage any effective leader who might threaten him.
3. An ideology which alienated the Han Gentry whose support had underlain any previously successful dynastic change.
4. A religion which alienated both Chinese and ultimately the Westerners as well.
5. No military or administrative experience among the leadership and few defectors with the relevant skills. It may be politically incorrect but revolutions without upper and middle class leadership generally do not do so well.
6. Although the rebellion started in the provinces most open to Western trade they failed to establish any real contact with Westerners who might have provided training or weapons.


So what POD could possibly change the Taipings inbuilt deficiencies into strengths?
 

yboxman

Banned
#1 The Graduate

August 20th, 1829, Fuyuanshui Village, Hua County, Guandong

Hong Renkun stood shivering in front of the assembled members of the Clan. For the past three hours he had recited to four books and fiveclassics in front of the stony faced audience. He doubted they understood him. Certainly they could not evaluate his performance. His were a clan of moderately prosperous Farmers and Charcoal burners, not literate merchants and Gentry. It was uncommon for one of their number to aspire to achieve a degree in the Imperial examinations. It was even rarer for one of their number to succeed in such an endevour. For one such as he, a Hakka and son of farmers to pass the examinations would require both the favor of the ancestors and the most stringet preparations.

He knew all too well how expensive his tutors were and how stretched the finances of the family were. But the lined face of Hong Guoyou, his grandfather, was not unfriendly. That was the face of a man who had worked hard all his life precisely so his grandchildren might attain the heights he failed to reach. (1)

Finaly the old man speaks. "Let his studies continue- but as his knowledge of the four books appears complete let him now study Sun Tzu". Madam Wang's gasp of dismay is quickly stifled but not swiftly enough. Guoyou shakes his head." For every candidate to the military exams there are three or four to the civil exams. Sons to families with more resources and better connections than ours. Did not Lao Tze say that the greatest journey begins with the smallest step? Let our family first place one of our own as an officer in the Green standard army. His son may in turn take his place in the civil service."

July 17th 1833, Guanxou, Guandong (2)

Hong Renkun (3) had to make a strong attempt not to stare at the sights displayed on the streets of the massive metropolis. One of those sights was just careening his way towards him as a elderly man, a gleam of fanaticsm in his eyes, caught Hongs gaze and presses towards him, his hand clutching a stack of pamplets (4) but the crowd separates them. Shrugging, Hong Renkun makes his way towards the examination pavilions.

Febuary 29 1833, Guanxou, Guandong

Hong has been crouced within his cubicle for three days, writing feverishly the eight legged essay, pausing only to attend his bodily needs. For the past week he has stayed with distant family in the poorer quarters. Now however the results of the exams are posted. Even in the Military exams competition is harsh. And he nearly swoons when he discovers his name as the Jieyuan (5). He had passed. And more than that- with such a rank he need not fear being sent back to his village in honor but lacking a paid position. Some posting would be found for him, hopefully near his county where his influence might advance the interests of his family (6). While he could not hope to be sent to the metropolitan exams (7) he might still look forward to a life of relative comfort and high statues- assuming he is not killed by a Bandit's arrow or a Rebel gun first.

(1) And this is the POD. OTL Hong Guoyou decided Hong Renkun would have to be cut loose as the family's finances were too stretched. TTL he decides his grandson is worth the investement.
(2) OTL Hong Xiuquan made his first attempt at the provinicial examinations in 1836. TTL he is better prepared- and he knows that he will receive no more tuition fees next year.
(3) I hope I understand the Chinese naming system properly. As I understand it at the age of 20 traditional male Chinese choose (or rather have a calligrapher advise them) a "style"/grownup name to replace their brith name. OTL this was Huoxiou but since Hong is still 19 his name remains Renkun. Xiuquan was the name he chose after his epiphany in 1839.
(4) That's Liang Fa, a Christian convert and missionary whose pamphlet "good words to Mankind" may have influenced Hong's rather muddled Theology. OTL and TTL he will flee to Malaysia in 1834, two steps ahead of the Qing.
(5) First place in the provincial exams.
(6) Technicaly against regulations but happens all the time.
(7) Since for the military this was limited to the Banner people
 
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Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
Well, I actually disagree with several points of your assessment of the Qing. Since I agree completely with your assessment of the Taiping, though, I don't think it much matters.

I look forward to this very much. May I ask where you're coming from in writing this in terms of sources and background?
 

yboxman

Banned
Well, I actually disagree with several points of your assessment of the Qing. Since I agree completely with your assessment of the Taiping, though, I don't think it much matters.

I look forward to this very much. May I ask where you're coming from in writing this in terms of sources and background?


1. God's Chinese son
2. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom: Rebellion and the Blasphemy of Empire
3. Religion in chinese society
4. The Chinese gentry
5. Oriental Despotism (taking this with a grain of salt).
6. The scramble for China
7. The Awakening of China (Many, many grains of Salt. But he has the advantage of personal observation during the relevant period).
8. China a new History (By Fairbank- yes, I know he's outdated but several of his observations are non PC in today's terms but I think all the more factually correct)
9. China from the opium wars to the 1911 revolution

Any particular sources you can suggest?

As for the Qing- like I said I know the subject is controversial and my sources disagree as to how much Qing attempt at reform more structualy flawed Vs unlucky and how much the "Foreign" nature of the Qing really affected the Chinese failure to confront the West.

But to me the bottom line is that there is simply no other society on earth where a tiny foreign minority was able to maintain control of a conquered majority over time without either largely assimilating the ruled (Arabs in Middle East/Turks in Anatolia/ Spanish in Latin America) or being assimilated into them (Germanic tribes in the Western Roman empire).

The Qing failed to do either and I can't see how they could survive a Chinese society in which more of the Han would be literate, armed and organized in large conscript armies, etc. And since they realized that I can't see how they could have allowed reform efforts to succeed. Given the growing number of rebellions the Qing experienced BEFORE China was opened I suspect they would have been deposed sometime in the 1870s or 1880s absent foreign intervention and the temporary monopoly their forces enjoyed over modern weapons.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
1. God's Chinese son
2. The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom: Rebellion and the Blasphemy of Empire
3. Religion in chinese society
4. The Chinese gentry
5. Oriental Despotism (taking this with a grain of salt).
6. The scramble for China
7. The Awakening of China (Many, many grains of Salt. But he has the advantage of personal observation during the relevant period).
8. China a new History (By Fairbank- yes, I know he's outdated but several of his observations are non PC in today's terms but I think all the more factually correct)
9. China from the opium wars to the 1911 revolution

Any particular sources you can suggest?

I had my nose in a couple a year ago or so, including Oriental Despotism, I'll try and dig the others up. I envy you your focus.

As for the Qing- like I said I know the subject is controversial and my sources disagree as to how much Qing attempt at reform more structualy flawed Vs unlucky and how much the "Foreign" nature of the Qing really affected the Chinese failure to confront the West.

But to me the bottom line is that there is simply no other society on earth where a tiny foreign minority was able to maintain control of a conquered majority over time without either largely assimilating the ruled (Arabs in Middle East/Turks in Anatolia/ Spanish in Latin America) or being assimilated into them (Germanic tribes in the Western Roman empire).

The Qing failed to do either and I can't see how they could survive a Chinese society in which more of the Han would be literate, armed and organized in large conscript armies, etc. And since they realized that I can't see how they could have allowed reform efforts to succeed. Given the growing number of rebellions the Qing experienced BEFORE China was opened I suspect they would have been deposed sometime in the 1870s or 1880s absent foreign intervention and the temporary monopoly their forces enjoyed over modern weapons.

I'm in full agreement with you on the direction it pushed Qing policy. What I'd dispute was the reality of the separation between the "Manchu overlords" and "Han collaborators," and the extent of the Qing inability to reform.

On the former, I'd argue that the Qing were able to achieve the impossible largely because the perceived and intended caste system was only vaguely connected to reality. Everybody was speaking Chinese, many were writing it, most were living in China proper, the leadership was increasingly Chinese by ancestry due to intermarriage, the emperor mostly so, promoting Confucianism was the focus, and when the regime did eventually crumble the Manchu were able to seamlessly assimilate with negligible violence. In the meantime, the biggest day-to-day foreign cultural imposition's foreignness was forgotten by most. Of course that's not to say that Manchu, especially away from the emperor's family, didn't perceive their shared interests. And it definitely doesn't change the fact that the Chinese popularly regarded them as aliens. But. The ethnic-Chinese national movement of the turn of the century still involved shouting "Rebuild the Qing!"

And I don't think it's entirely fair to speak of an inability to reform either; rather an inbuilt unwillingness. The Qing felt they couldn't afford to import foreign reforms because they were already seen as foreign. Hence why the Self-Strengthening was only partially successful (or that's how I'd classify it). If the Sino-French War had been avoided or mitigated and/or the Sino-Japanese War had been less of a disaster - both possible - even those limited reforms would have borne substantial fruit. Then there are the Hundred Days reforms, whose critical flaws were due to the circumstances of the 1895 peace. And that's not counting the genuinely successful reforms under Cixi in the last years of her life. They sure weren't good at it, but they could and would do it once their backs were to the corner. And to give them some credit, they managed their reforms without consigning millions to the grave - not something that could be said again of Chinese reformers until Deng took power.

But again I'm arguing extent, not trend. Certainly there can be no question that a Han monarch would be more open to straying from the Classics or importing foreign strengths. Please go on.
 

yboxman

Banned
#2a A hard education

July 22nd 1833 Guandong-Guanxi border

The forces of Zhao the golden dragon (1) were finally routed from the town, their fighting strength decimated. They had been reluctant to abandon the county Yamen- it was, after all the symbol of their leaders claim to legitimacy (2). Hong Renkun leaned on his spear, trying to ignore the blood on it's tip. The men of his unit (3) released a yell of triumph as it became clear that the town was theirs. Some were already pounding at the doorways of the towns hovels seeking women, rice wine and any loot the inhabitants might posses.

"Stop them!" Commanded Renkun sharply at his titular subordinates (4). Feng Xiaoping (5) turned just quickly enough so as to to be considered insubordinate. "The men had fought hard. Should they not enjoy their rewards?"

Hong Renkun considered quickly. Somehow, he doubted that quoting Mencius and Confucius at the men would have much effect. Instead he tried to appeal to their self interest 'Do they seek more hard fighting? Zhao has fled to the mountains and we will have to pursue him there do you wish his men to get more supplies and recruits from this town? Do you wish the men of this town to avenge their daughters by attacking our own supplies once we are gone? Do you wish to return to your wives swiftly or to chase Zhao for another year?"

Feng Hesitates, seemingly considering Hong's words before answering. "If we do not take our pleasures here some other unit will. And we will face the same consequences with none of the rewards"

It is Hong's turn to hesitate. But he realizes that if he backs down now he will have lost what little respect his men grant him. He allows his pike to level itself "If other, unscrupulous commanders permit unharmonious behavior then they shall answer for it. But no Pings under my command shall engage in actions which are opposed to the will of the emperor"

Feng, fifteen years older and trained from birth in the arts of war (7) is the one who finally bends. Later, myths would be woven from this moment. It would be said that this was the moment Hong's true, divine nature first shone through. But for now it is just a grizzeled old soldier deciding to

"Well" he says spitting to the side, "let us at least wait for Lion commander Qin's words on the matter".

Hong is not sure which of them is more surprised when the lion Commander curtly backs his judgment.

September 15th 1833, Guandong-Guanxi border
Six weeks later Hong Renkun's victorious men march back the same path they took into the mountains. While his unit did not have the honor of fighting Zho himself they had dutifully blocked the sector assigned to them from any rebels seeking escape, and had taken nearly a score of heads as Zhao's collapsing command disintegrated into panicked, starved bands seeking any way out of the surrounded bandit stronghold. Lion commander Hun Qin (8) was killed in one of the bandits final desperate attempts at a breakout and, absent communications with the other Qiin commanders he had assumed command of the 80 odd men.

That command had proved temporary. But his command of the thirty men of his platoon had been cemented by the campaign. He could not think in fact of any actual commands he gave- it was mostly a matter of backing any suggestion Feng had made. But he had learned. Next time, perhaps, he will be the one giving the commands.

On their way out of the mountain they pass the township they fought to liberate six weeks ago. It is gone. Or nearly so. Rengkun addresses one of the few fearful souls left in the burned out remains of the village. Like him, the old man speaks Hakka, making for an easy and somewhat private conversation.

"I am mortified that we defeated the Bandit lord Zhao too late to prevent his followers from wrecking destruction on your town."

The old man stares back blankly.

"It was not Zhao's men. They had always been satisfied with some tribute in grain. Far less than the Taxes the Qing collect"

"Who then?"

"It was the Banner soldiers. They gathered all the young men and women. They will be sold as slaves in Guanxou. To cover the costs of the campaign, they said. Our women shall be whores in the brothels of the Punti ass lickers and our men shall be sent across the Western seas to labor for the foreign devils (9)"



(1) Bet you never heard about this guy, right? He was a bandit turned rebel who managed to gather 30,000 men on the mountainous borderlands between Guanxi, Guandong and Hunan between 1832-1833. He took to wearing a golden dragon robe as a sign of his imperial pretensions and it took a year to put his rebellion down. You won't find anything about this rebellion on the net though. Or the dozen of other peasent rebellion which occurred in the decade preceding the opium war.
(2) Seizing the administrative center of a Hsien, county or perfecture
(3) The command structure of the Green standard army is pretty much ad-hoc. It's kept split up into small units which are generally, but not always "commanded" by a military official (that is, one who has passed the theoretical exams) who is frequently rotated to different commands (in order to prevent him from building up a power base) while actual command is often carried out by long serving soldiers with no official rank- the chinese equivalent of NCOs. Except that the whole system is even worse than the "gentlemen officers, Rabble soldiers" of pre Napoleonic Europe. It's actually specifically designed to make the green standard forces LESS effective in large scale actions so as to keep the Banner soldiers as the sole effective military force. Except, of course, that due to their automatic privillaged positions they have stopped being effective a long time ago- partly because their officers are rotated as well in order to prevent a palace coup.
(4) The Green standard troops are largely hereditary. So Hong Renkun is not only the lowliest life form in any army, a second lieutenant equivalent, he's also an absolute outsider.
(5) He's sort of the NCO equivalent.
(6) That's sort of a Captain equivalent
(7) Insofar as green standard troops are trained
(8) Consider that Captain equivalent. But the Qing military rank system is so bloody unstandardized, especially for the green banner soldiers that I'm playing fast and loose with the titles.
(9) The Brits banned the slave trade. Guess who's replacing the African slave labor in the new world? Of course, this is all under 'temporary" indentured contract.
 

yboxman

Banned
On the former, I'd argue that the Qing were able to achieve the impossible largely because the perceived and intended caste system was only vaguely connected to reality. Everybody was speaking Chinese, many were writing it, most were living in China proper, the leadership was increasingly Chinese by ancestry due to intermarriage, the emperor mostly so

The emperor was not- primary marriages were almost always within the Aisin Goro clan or, occasionaly, with Chingizid Khalkha Mongol clans. I don't think there was a single heir to the throne whose mother was an ethnic Han (unless you count Han banner people who were serving the Manchus BEFORE the conquest of China proper. And I don;t think there were any of them either).

I'll grant you that the Caste system was never completely enforced, but it blurred only at the lowest margins (Manchu dropouts) and the highest levels (well performing Han being married into Manchu clans and adopting a Manchu identity).

The point is that compared to, say, the Goths or the Normans or the Franks or the Bulgars the Qing were undergoing much slower assimilation and that compared with the Arabs or the Spanish they were carrying out virtualy no assimilation of their own.

, promoting Confucianism was the focus,

Yes, but this should be viewed as similliar, in modern terms, to the way Assads Alawites promoted Pan-Arab nationalism. Everyone realizes it's a bit of a sham but knows it's impolite (and deadly!) to talk about it.

and when the regime did eventually crumble the Manchu were able to seamlessly assimilate with negligible violence.

Not so. In Manchuria itself, and in Beijing where the Manchu population was large and control was handed over gradually through a regime loyalist/ turncoat (Yuan) the violence was minimal. In CHina proper there were horrific massacres of the Banner people quarters. And bear in mind that by then (1911) they were much more assimilated than they were in 1840.

And I don't think it's entirely fair to speak of an inability to reform either; rather an inbuilt unwillingness. The Qing felt they couldn't afford to import foreign reforms because they were already seen as foreign.

That's a good way of putting it.

Hence why the Self-Strengthening was only partially successful (or that's how I'd classify it).

Me as well- but there really isn't any second place if you're a target for european and Japanese agression. The self strengthing movement's main sucess was in making the regime more capable of crushing internal rebellions. It failed to either reverse the trend of Chinese deindustrialization, reduce the debt burden, or create a military force capable of deterring further agression.
If the Sino-French War had been avoided or mitigated and/or the Sino-Japanese War had been less of a disaster - both possible - even those limited reforms would have borne substantial fruit.

Well.... I considered that. But after taking a good hard look at the Qing's debt structure I decided that any recovery after the second Opium war and the Taiping rebellion would be a truely cisyphian task. Avoiding (not winning) the Sino-French war is a possible POD. It would have the added benefit of delaying (not preventing) Gong's exile from power. But I don't think the Sino-Japanese war can be prevented. Only delayed. The trends of economic and military growth are such that China would be in a continually weakening position up to WWI Vs Japan and Russia. Even if the Sino-Japanese war is delayed until, say, 1902 the most likely outcome is Russia taking a larger chunk out of Northern Manchuria as a price for "Saving" the Qing and the other powers playing along.

My point is that I couldn't realy find any single plausible POD post 1850 that would prevent the continuous relative chinese decline of 1840-1970 and keep the Qing in power. Ameliorate the decline? yes. Prevent it, and prevent some kind of Japnese or Russian invasion? Not really.

Even if the Qing manage to reach WWI in better shape that just means Japan will likely use the opportunity to pounce earlier- rather than wait as it did OTL for warlords to tear the country apart.

To avoid that scenario China has to be sufficiently strong to deter Japan from any agression by the time a WWI analog comes along- or to completely change the nature of their relationship with Japan beforehand.

Then there are the Hundred Days reforms, whose critical flaws were due to the circumstances of the 1895 peace. And that's not counting the genuinely successful reforms under Cixi in the last years of her life.


But here's the probelm- it was precisely those reforms, and the formation of the New armies which led to the 1911 revolution- The moment Modernized Han armies without Manchu control were created they turned on the regime! That was precisely the reason Cixi had resisted forming those armies and persisted on keeping the ineffective banner armies around for so long.


They sure weren't good at it, but they could and would do it once their backs were to the corner. And to give them some credit, they managed their reforms without consigning millions to the grave - not something that could be said again of Chinese reformers until Deng took power.

Take a look at Chinese demographics between 1840-1911. http://www.populstat.info/Asia/chinac.htm. they plateau'd. This is not because they had less children. The reason is that instability and a crushing tax burden (caused by foreign debt, high military spending and uncompetitive industries) led to a famine-growth cycle similiar to what was happening in India. While the people who died in those famines may not be counted in the same way that "the Great leap forward" and "cultual revolution" victims are they are still dead. It is simply that this was the rule rather than the exception (not that I'm whitewashing Mao!). Now take a look at Japan's http://populstat.info/ and Siam's http://populstat.info/ demographics. They got out of Malthus's trap. China didn't.

But again I'm arguing extent, not trend. Certainly there can be no question that a Han monarch would be more open to straying from the Classics or importing foreign strengths. Please go on.

I am- and I may be making mistakes concerning how the CHinese military system worked at that time so let me know if you spot anything- retroconning is always and option.
 

yboxman

Banned
Interesting, particularly the part about the slaves.

Also, what about the other TL?

I need to rework it a bit- just realized I missed the end of the Second opium war by a year:eek: (ended in 1860, not 1859. I was using a sloppy reference) so I need to regame the entire balance of power in the Pacific.

Another update to "a heartbeat away from greatness" next week.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
The emperor was not- primary marriages were almost always within the Aisin Goro clan or, occasionaly, with Chingizid Khalkha Mongol clans. I don't think there was a single heir to the throne whose mother was an ethnic Han (unless you count Han banner people who were serving the Manchus BEFORE the conquest of China proper. And I don;t think there were any of them either).

I'll grant you that the Caste system was never completely enforced, but it blurred only at the lowest margins (Manchu dropouts) and the highest levels (well performing Han being married into Manchu clans and adopting a Manchu identity).

The point is that compared to, say, the Goths or the Normans or the Franks or the Bulgars the Qing were undergoing much slower assimilation and that compared with the Arabs or the Spanish they were carrying out virtualy no assimilation of their own.

Well that shows me on the emperor's ancestry. Point.

Yes, but this should be viewed as similliar, in modern terms, to the way Assads Alawites promoted Pan-Arab nationalism. Everyone realizes it's a bit of a sham but knows it's impolite (and deadly!) to talk about it.

When a hundred million people refuse to call a spade a spade....well, maybe it's actually a duck.

Not so. In Manchuria itself, and in Beijing where the Manchu population was large and control was handed over gradually through a regime loyalist/ turncoat (Yuan) the violence was minimal. In CHina proper there were horrific massacres of the Banner people quarters. And bear in mind that by then (1911) they were much more assimilated than they were in 1840.

Whoa. How did I miss that? Could you recommend a source? I've not heard a word on the subject.

That's a good way of putting it.

Me as well- but there really isn't any second place if you're a target for european and Japanese agression. The self strengthing movement's main sucess was in making the regime more capable of crushing internal rebellions. It failed to either reverse the trend of Chinese deindustrialization, reduce the debt burden, or create a military force capable of deterring further agression.

Well.... I considered that. But after taking a good hard look at the Qing's debt structure I decided that any recovery after the second Opium war and the Taiping rebellion would be a truely cisyphian task. Avoiding (not winning) the Sino-French war is a possible POD. It would have the added benefit of delaying (not preventing) Gong's exile from power. But I don't think the Sino-Japanese war can be prevented. Only delayed. The trends of economic and military growth are such that China would be in a continually weakening position up to WWI Vs Japan and Russia. Even if the Sino-Japanese war is delayed until, say, 1902 the most likely outcome is Russia taking a larger chunk out of Northern Manchuria as a price for "Saving" the Qing and the other powers playing along.

Well why delay it when China's undergoing relative decline? What would've been best was an earlier war. Japan's navy was made ready only a few years before the war broke out - had it happened a decade earlier it could easily have been a mutual embarrassment instead of a Chinese disaster. Taiwan might even have been kept from Japan in the peace, if not returned to China, denying them the sugar and hence gold reserves they depended on for much of their successful development in OTL. Even if not, China would have had a similar impetus to reform in a less desperate climate - not having as much of a target painted on its back and with the Europeans a little less able to intervene. Either way, stalling the Japanese would make Russia the Great Power in northeast Asia, which means everyone but the French will be wanting to back them off.

My point is that I couldn't realy find any single plausible POD post 1850 that would prevent the continuous relative chinese decline of 1840-1970 and keep the Qing in power. Ameliorate the decline? yes. Prevent it, and prevent some kind of Japnese or Russian invasion? Not really.

I see where you're coming from. Probably people from a Qing China wank would look at a Han-led China wank and shout wank. But given what happened in OTL, I'd argue that it's very doable to wank China relative to its OTL experience, if not relative to your best case. I believe that's what you're saying in terms of ameliorating the problem?

Even if the Qing manage to reach WWI in better shape that just means Japan will likely use the opportunity to pounce earlier- rather than wait as it did OTL for warlords to tear the country apart.

To avoid that scenario China has to be sufficiently strong to deter Japan from any agression by the time a WWI analog comes along- or to completely change the nature of their relationship with Japan beforehand.

Well, Japan first attacking in WWI (admittedly unlikely) would suggest a Japan that lacks Manchuria, Taiwan, and even Korea. Much less the development and recruitment made possible by those possessions. I suspect the result would be remarkably better for China than what it went through historically.

And then there's the fact that WWI's date wasn't tied down. A pair of global wars in the 1880s/1900s or 1900s/1920s, say, could potentially have broken European exansionist tendencies in time for the Qing to get their house in order. As much as they could.

But here's the probelm- it was precisely those reforms, and the formation of the New armies which led to the 1911 revolution- The moment Modernized Han armies without Manchu control were created they turned on the regime! That was precisely the reason Cixi had resisted forming those armies and persisted on keeping the ineffective banner armies around for so long.

Indeed it was. But historically many states have survived just such obstacles, sometimes for centuries at a time. You can turn to positive discrimination of minorities for command positions. You can shift people around between commands. You can keep the best commanders on the most inacessible frontiers. You can play ambitious men off each other. Absent structural change it dooms them to instability, but that doesn't necessarily make the collapse of the regime inevitable. Merely likely.

Take a look at Chinese demographics between 1840-1911. http://www.populstat.info/Asia/chinac.htm. they plateau'd. This is not because they had less children. The reason is that instability and a crushing tax burden (caused by foreign debt, high military spending and uncompetitive industries) led to a famine-growth cycle similiar to what was happening in India. While the people who died in those famines may not be counted in the same way that "the Great leap forward" and "cultual revolution" victims are they are still dead. It is simply that this was the rule rather than the exception (not that I'm whitewashing Mao!). Now take a look at Japan's http://populstat.info/ and Siam's http://populstat.info/ demographics. They got out of Malthus's trap. China didn't.

I love that site.

I am- and I may be making mistakes concerning how the CHinese military system worked at that time so let me know if you spot anything- retroconning is always and option.

Oh I don't know that I'll be much use, actually. I've got breadth going for me, not depth. As you may have noticed, my take on the Qing is much more from the frame of the late-1880s on, because that's where I have really gotten into reading. Even then, living in China I'm going on a combination of online sources and personal anecdotes from acquaintances here. I'd not have found out about those revolts, for example, until I was able to read about them in Chinese, and who knows if that'll even happen.
 

yboxman

Banned
I'm amazed the Taiping rebellion isn't used more as a PoD. Subscribed

Well, partly it's because, IMHO, if the Taiping rebellion is not fundamentally different from what it was OTL then a more successful rebellion (say, an immediate Northern expidition rather than setting up in Nanking. Or A conslidation in Guanxi and Guandong following the Jiantan uprising) simply results in a china which is even more FUBAR'd than OTL and which is efectively partitioned in the scramble for China.

That would be interesting (in the Chinese sense) to explore- but Jared filled that Niche in Decades of darkness.

An interesting way to change the character of the Taiping is to have a different outcome to the Tianjin incident- But that's been explored in "All about my brother" (result- a tongue in cheek time line in which southern China alternates between Kuoimitang style dictatorship, Mao style cultual revolution, Capitlist rule by an oligarchy and Khomeini style theocracy while Northern China goes Meiji under prince Gong)

Since my avowed intention is a China wank I'm changing things at the inception- in the personality, experience, competence, ideology and initial support of Hong Xiuquan. Consider this an intellectual exercise in what kind of chinese rebellion is both plausible to begin with, likely to succeed and likely to rule better than the Qing.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
I'm very curious how you'll get That Man back to leading a parallel rebellion. Many authors would have dismissed him as having had his life too dramatically butterflied by this point.

Edit: Would you prefer we took the debate off your thread? I don't especially want to distract from the main act.
 

yboxman

Banned
I'm very curious how you'll get That Man back to leading a parallel rebellion. Many authors would have dismissed him as having had his life too dramatically butterflied by this point.

Well that would be telling:)

Seriously though, and without releasing spoilers, the revolution is coming. The Opium crisis and war, the malthusian crisis and all the other factors leading to the outbreak of revolutions throughout China are all there. Things were already breaking up before the Opium war (rember Zhao the Golden dragon? Or the White Lotus rebellion?) and go to hell afterwards. The Taiping were'nt the only rebellion- the Tongs were raising hell throughout the south and briefly took over Shanghai before the taiping reached there, the Nian rebellion, the Muslim rebellions, the Miao, the Punti-Hakka war, the Red Turban Rebellion, the taiwan insurrection (linked to both the ming restoration attempts by the Tongs and the Punti-Hakka wars), etc, etc. And these are just the major rebellions that Westerners noticed. Almost every year up to the Opium wars and thereafter sees a major peasent insurrection.

The point is that the revolutionary potential is there. The Taiping offered a spark and a principle which swept many of the discontented into their fold but they are not the CAUSE of the rebellion- they are simply the form it took.

If Hong has an early career as a Green Banner officer involved in putting down the minor insurrections preceding the Opium war is he less likely to become the focal point of this outbreak than if he is a failed scholar and school master? If we didn't know his history OTL then I would say the answer was no- most succesful Chinese dynastic changes were led by men of statues, and often officials, rather than peseants. Since we know how Hong ended up OTL the answer is yes- it is less likely.

The likelihood of ANY historical figure be it Mao, Lenin, Garibaldi, etc assuming the exact same historical significance they assumed OTL if a major detail of their lives had changed is small. But this is a story, not an in detailed historical analysis. As I said upfront It's aimed at being plausible for the period 15 years post POD rather than likely.

And in the case of Hong, after reading his family biography and delving more deeply into the course of the first Opium war I think I spotted an interesting opening where he is in fact likely to find himself involved in activities which will place him in a revolutionary position AND give him a better running start to assume the Mandate of heaven. I admit I could choose someone else to fill that niche but do to the dearth of sources of don't have enough material to make that as interesting a story or a plausible POD.

Also, while any psychological analysis of a man 150 years in the grave is bound to be patchy, I think Hong have the necessary mix of megalomania and vision to make a bid for greatness given the proper circumstances. Those circumstances will be described in the next three posts.

Edit: Would you prefer we took the debate off your thread? I don't especially want to distract from the main act.

No, If I wanted to publish a complete timeline I would have placed it in the completed timeline section- the discussion is part of the timeline evolution- as I said I'm open to retroconing. And I think other readers who know less about the period will find the duiscussion interesting.
 
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