The Graduate: a very different Taiping timeline

I liked the mention earlier about how even if rebels seize one province reinforcements can just be brought in from the next one over. That's what made early Taiping tactics effective: they had a river fleet, hit one city (for loot and recruits) and then quickly moved down the river before reinforcements could arrive to crush them, staying one step ahead of any Qing armies big enough to squish them until they hit critical mass. With more military experience on the part of their leader it'll be interesting to see what tactics get used.

Oh and am enjoying the hell out of this, best new timeline in a while. Keep it up.
 
I'm from Mongolia and want to see how China can dominate Mongolia in mid 1800's. I hope you do not so much ASB'ish thing.

During mid 1800's the Mongolia was predominately Mongolians. Chinese colonization of Mongolia began around 1875's. With China in turmoil , Greater Mongolia will take advantage and organize revolution (they did it in 1911 OTL). And don't expect Mongolia will just come to accept Chinese rule. No chance for such thing. Mongolia hates China, it is in Mongolian blood to hate Chinese. Also Military option is not so great for Chinese.
1. And they had backing of Russians. Russians wanted to integrate Mongolia and even count N.N.Muraviev suggested to take Mongolians in Russian Empire.
2. The logistic problem and cavalry.

However even without Mongolia China is still superpower.
 
In a similar vein the earlier the Qing fall the sooner you get a Korean immigration over the border into Manchuria. This was sped up IOTL by people getting away from the Japanese but it'll star earlier in ITTL and there'll probably be a chunk of the Manchurian-Chinese border with a plurality of Korean speakers unless something strange happens. Unless Korea gets wanked a bit as well those Koreans would probably be fine being under Chinese rule unless it gets very nastily nationalist.
 
Mongolia

I'm from Mongolia and want to see how China can dominate Mongolia in mid 1800's. I hope you do not so much ASB'ish thing.

During mid 1800's the Mongolia was predominately Mongolians. Chinese colonization of Mongolia began around 1875's. With China in turmoil , Greater Mongolia will take advantage and organize revolution (they did it in 1911 OTL).

Well that depends on how you define Mongolia. Large-scale Chinese immigration into Eastern Inner Mongolia, Especially Chahar actually began during the 18th century and they were a large proportion (though not a majority) of the population even in 1840. Their immigration was, at least intialy, welcomed by the Mongol nobles who found them to far more taxable than their Mongol tenants. later, attitudes soured. But I would agree that they were not militarily, socially or politically dominant in 1840.

So there will definately be a period once Qing collapse appears certain where local Mongolian nobles seize control of the Six Leagues. Can they keep control? for how long? are they capable of adompting a common agenda and leadership?


And don't expect Mongolia will just come to accept Chinese rule. No chance for such thing. Mongolia hates China, it is in Mongolian blood to hate Chinese. Also Military option is not so great for Chinese.
1. And they had backing of Russians. Russians wanted to integrate Mongolia and even count N.N.Muraviev suggested to take Mongolians in Russian Empire.
2. The logistic problem and cavalry.

This depends on several factors, some of which you mentioned:

1. Russia. Muraviev was appointed governor of Eastern Siberia in 1847 with a clear agenda, both personal and court based, to expand at the expense of Russia. It took him a bout six months to whip the administration into shape. But his predeccesor was much less energetic (and much more corrupt). If the Taiping take Beijing before he takes control then Russian intervention, though likely, will be delayed and less energetic. You also need to consider Russia's own avaliable power projection and priorities in the late 1840s.

The TransBaikal Cossacks have not yet been raised, Russian population and military presence in Eastern Siberia is still low (it doubled during Muraviev's tenancy), and the Irkutsk-Tomsk road is not yet complete. Also, I think the Greater Kazakh horde hasn't accepted Russian Suzerainty yet and they are having a nasty scuffle with them.

OTL, the Russians didn't move when the Taiping launched their Northen expedition in 1853. They only took the left Bank of the Amur in 1858, when the Qing were distracted by the Second Opium war. Bear in mind that this isn't 1911- there is no Russian railway extending to Mongolia. In fact, there is no Russian railway east of Moscow!

Bottom line- While the Russians may recognize any Mongolian state and even send some Cossacks and military trainers to help the speed and effectiveness they do so in depends greatly on the timing and length of the Rebellion. The longer it goes on before the Qing are defeated the more likely the Russians (and not only the RUssians) are likely to seek advantage.

2. Mongolian unity- My impression is that at this timepoint (1840s) there really isn't any real modern Mongolian nationalism (correct me if I'm wrong) in the sense of a literate middle class which was self concsious of it's interests Vs the Qing. So any secessionist movement is going to be one of traditional nobles whom the Qing have kept divided. Will they be able to unite around a single government as they did in 1911 or will each inner Mongolian league prince go it's own way?

Who will the dominant leaders be- Qing Bannermen deserting the sinking ship(How about Sengge Rinchen?), local nobles or the Jebtsundamba Khutuktu and the Buddhist monastic establishement?

3. Logistics and cavalry. As you said any south China based rebellion is going to be short on Cavalry. And Mongolia, unlike Manchuria offers little in the way of river or sea transportation.

OTOH, OTL the Nian rebels raised a very significant Cavalry force in the yellow river valley and Sengge Rinchen had a very tough time defeating them in the field in spite of raising Inner Mongolian troops to combat the rebels.

Fact is, various factors, such as the overwhelming dominance of the Buddhist monastic establishment and the Pauperization of Mongol commoners, meant that mongol cavalry in the mid 19th century was not what it used to be under the Yuan dynasty. This trend was excaberated by Qing policy- they wanted to gradually destroy the Mongol millitary potential and they did a good job accomplishing exactly that.

So I agree that the Taiping will face a big challenge Vs the Mongols but it's not completely insurmountable- at least in Inner Mongolia.

4. Taiping priorities. Any successful Taiping rebellion is going to have three priorities in terms of the Northern borderlands

a. Eliminate any Qing rump state. That means that primary priority is going to be placed on Manchuria, rather than Mongolia. Since both use the same logistics routes if a Mongolian seccesionist state remains neutral in the QIng-Taiping struggle it may well be left alone. For a while anyway, and maybe indefinatelry if Russia invests a great deal in it's protection.

b. LAND! A greta deal of the force impelling the Taiping rebellion and motivating Taiping troops is the lack of land in CHina proper and it's avaliability in Manchuria and Mongolia. Manchuria, however, is by far the greater prize and Outer Mongolia (no offense intended) is not much of a prize.

c. Prevent a European foothold to the North. Russian Eastern Siberia simply doesn't produce enough food to support a large Russian military force. Manchuria and Mongolia do. So in the Long term, if the Taiping think they can get away with it they are going to try and detach any Mongolian-Manchurian protectorates from Russian control (though in the case of Mongolia they may be equally satisfied vassal state rather than a province).

5. Possibility of Mongol-Chinese accomodation. Depending on how the Mongolian internal political scene and on whether a strong Qing rump state survives in Manchuria to fixate Taiping attention I can see A Mongolian government or some governments (if Inner Mongolian princes and generals fail to unify and struggle for dominance) agree to become Taiping "tributary states" and surrender foreign policy to it. On the long run that will of course create tension (over immigration, military force movements, contributions to common dfense, railroads, etc),clashes and possibly a tug of war with Russia.

Bottom line:

Without giving away too many spoliers I think outer Mongolia, Outer Manchuria , the illi Basin and Kashgaria will almost certainly become Russian protectorates or independent for the short-medium term and possibly for the long term. And that's no great loss for real chinese power- only for prestige.

Southern Manchuria (Liaoning), parts of Eastern and Southern Inner Mongolia, Inner Tibet (Qinghai) and Gansu will almost certainly be incorporated after some resistance into the Taiping state.

Everything in between (Most of Inner Mongolia, Heilongjiang, Jilin, Outer Tibet, Most of Xinjiang) is something I see as possibly going either way and I'm open for discussion about it :)

In fact I would be most grateful for any additional information or insights you have about how Mongolia was administered under the Qing and about the internal balance of power within Mongolian society and attitudes of nobles, monks and commoners towards Russians, Qing and Han. Not being Mongolian a lot of that information if difficult for me to access:)
 
Korean immigration

In a similar vein the earlier the Qing fall the sooner you get a Korean immigration over the border into Manchuria. This was sped up IOTL by people getting away from the Japanese but it'll star earlier in ITTL and there'll probably be a chunk of the Manchurian-Chinese border with a plurality of Korean speakers unless something strange happens. Unless Korea gets wanked a bit as well those Koreans would probably be fine being under Chinese rule unless it gets very nastily nationalist.

Actually, I'm not sure about that. It is true that the Qing limited Korean, as well as Han immigration into Manchuria. However, if a Han Dynasty gains control of the Korean-Manchurian border in the revolt then that area is going to filled up with Han immigrants very rapidly indeed and the population sparse Niche that Korean immigrants moved into is going to be closed very quickly. I think that in the long run the Korean minority north of the Yalu is actually going to be smaller than OTL.

One effect of that is probably going to be earlier and more severe peasant rebellions against the ruling dynasty (Ideological affinity of the Tonghak with a more Neo-Confucian Taiping?).

OTOH if a Qing rump state remains in control of that area then yes, I can see them inviting Korean (and Russian) settlers in to safeguard the border against Han infiltration and offset the massive Han demographic advantage.

Also, an earlier Qing loss of the Trans-Issuri lands will probably mean earlier Korean immigration there, possibly enough for Russia to accept that as a Fait Accompli rather than try to end it as occured OTL.
 
Very interesting stuff! Keep it up. It will be interesting to see how alt-Hong's religion differs from the stuff he came up with OTL - one would think that with his very different life experience as an experienced and successful Chinese official it would tend a bit closer to orthodox Chinese thought.

Bruce
 

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
Beautiful. I often wish Taiping got as much attention as the ACW, but such are the limits of the historical record/the site's demographics.
 
Beautiful. I often wish Taiping got as much attention as the ACW, but such are the limits of the historical record/the site's demographics.

Thanks man- BTW, I noticed you started a thread once about the Lanfang republic. Any idea about what it's statues were in the 1860s? Was it still independent or did the Dutch manage to reduce them to a vassal state by then? What were it's borders anyway?
 
Actually, I'm not sure about that. It is true that the Qing limited Korean, as well as Han immigration into Manchuria. However, if a Han Dynasty gains control of the Korean-Manchurian border in the revolt then that area is going to filled up with Han immigrants very rapidly indeed and the population sparse Niche that Korean immigrants moved into is going to be closed very quickly. I think that in the long run the Korean minority north of the Yalu is actually going to be smaller than OTL.

One effect of that is probably going to be earlier and more severe peasant rebellions against the ruling dynasty (Ideological affinity of the Tonghak with a more Neo-Confucian Taiping?).

OTOH if a Qing rump state remains in control of that area then yes, I can see them inviting Korean (and Russian) settlers in to safeguard the border against Han infiltration and offset the massive Han demographic advantage.

Also, an earlier Qing loss of the Trans-Issuri lands will probably mean earlier Korean immigration there, possibly enough for Russia to accept that as a Fait Accompli rather than try to end it as occured OTL.

Well IOTL a lot of Koreans crossed the border into China when the Qing fell along with the Chinese coming north (in far larger numbers) at the same time, which allowed them to be the majority in some border areas for a while (not anymore too much assimilation and ambitious kids moving off to Chinese cities or South Korea where they do wonderful things like open mutton skewer restaurants).

If the Qing fall earlier the Koreans will come in earlier but maybe in smaller numbers if the Chinese are better organized and if there isn't the Japanese occupation to provide another impetus out of Korea.

Still though, if anything that'll WEAKEN stuff like the Tonghak Rebellion in the 1890's because you'd have landless people getting out of Korea before that time rather than after it was beaten down. Maybe a more disaffection later on once cleaner water and vaccines start lowering the infant mortality rate but there isn't land in Manchuria to soak up the additional population as IOTL, as you say...
 
Well IOTL a lot of Koreans crossed the border into China when the Qing fell along with the Chinese coming north (in far larger numbers) at the same time, which allowed them to be the majority in some border areas for a while (not anymore too much assimilation and ambitious kids moving off to Chinese cities or South Korea where they do wonderful things like open mutton skewer restaurants).

If the Qing fall earlier the Koreans will come in earlier but maybe in smaller numbers if the Chinese are better organized and if there isn't the Japanese occupation to provide another impetus out of Korea.

Still though, if anything that'll WEAKEN stuff like the Tonghak Rebellion in the 1890's because you'd have landless people getting out of Korea before that time rather than after it was beaten down. Maybe a more disaffection later on once cleaner water and vaccines start lowering the infant mortality rate but there isn't land in Manchuria to soak up the additional population as IOTL, as you say...

According to Wiki, Korean immigration started in the 1860s, concurrently with the Tonghak movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_China, with 34,000 arriving by 1894, 110,000 by 1910 and 1 million or so by the time the "China incident" started. The trigger for immigration seems to have been the weakening of the Qing due to the revolts and second Opium war (which also resulted in increased Han immigration to Manchuria and Inner Mongolia) and natural disasters within Korea. If the Taiping take over the Manchuria-Korea border by, say, 1848 after a 5 year long revolt, before those disasters occur and take another 5 years to establish strict border control then I don't see that many Korean wetbacks crossing- probably less than the number which crossed by 1894 OTL.

Still, the number seems small enough that I guess it won't have much effect one way or another on the Tonghak rebellion, let alone on the 1860s disturbances. Question is whether political/Ideological reprecussions of the Fall of the Qing will have any effect on the Korean political climate.

OTOH, if immigration to inner Manchuria is blocked there is probabl;y greater immigration to the Trans-Ussuri (As I said earlier, either Russia or a rump Qing state is likely to hold onto it for the short-medium term) OTL, there were 7,000 Koreans, 20% of the population in the Trans ussuri by 1869 and 26,000 by 1897. Probably at least twice that many, maybe more, TTL.

How Isolated was Korea from China tradewise? Were some Koreans free to travel to China and return? If the Qing fall would Korea switch "tribute relations" to the Taiping automaticaly? If The Qing hold out in Northern Manchuria will Korea try to stay loyal to them? Or even seek Russian protection?

There's an interesting article here about later Korean immigration into Manchuria. http://www.jstor.org/stable/209173?seq=5
 

Rush Tarquin

Gone Fishin'
Thanks man- BTW, I noticed you started a thread once about the Lanfang republic. Any idea about what it's statues were in the 1860s? Was it still independent or did the Dutch manage to reduce them to a vassal state by then? What were it's borders anyway?

I assume you mean this thread. As you can tell from that thread, I'm not going to be able to be a great deal of help on this. I never had any sources beyond what I could find online (I live in Korea and don't have the funds to pay for history books).

For their part, the Dutch just seem to have always considered conflicts with Lanfang, aka the Kongsi Wars, as being a series of 'Chinese revolts'. On the other hand, Lanfang citizens seem to have considered Lanfang to be resisting invasion until its autonomy was finally snuffed out in the mid-1880s. Indeed the creation of the state seems to have been a protective measure against the arrival of the Dutch.

There doesn't seem to have been a great deal of communication between the two sides so I have to question the extent of the Dutch presence on the ground and naturally the possibility of an acknowledged and formalised vassal relationship. Remember though that by the 1860s, two of the three expeditions which made up the Kongsi Wars had already taken place, with the third and last one ending Lanfang's existence.

As for the extent of the state, wolf brother's guesstimate of southern modern West and Central Kalimantan seems plausible.
 
Ah. In that case, no, Functionally insane is what I meant- it means someone who is operating according to false assumptions that still result in favorable interaction with the real world.

Like using Newtonian mechanics. Or a variety of religious practices from various Pagan, Eastern and Monotheistic religions which will invariably offend someone on this thread if I gave them.

So what you mean is "insane but functional". "Functionally insane" would appear to mean "insane in effect", regardless of actual mental state.
 
1. Russia. Muraviev was appointed governor of Eastern Siberia in 1847 with a clear agenda, both personal and court based, to expand at the expense of Russia.

ITYM "at the expense of China." Though financially it would be at the expense of Russia.
 
@ybox

Mongolia-Qing relationship is very interesting topic. Except Zungaria, Inner and Outer Mongolia submited Qing dynasty not conquered. When they submitted the agreement was to Manchu's will not allow Chinese settlement and Mongolians will keep loyalty to Qing Court. After 2nd Opium war Qing was weakened greatly and was become ripped by colonial powers which Qing Empire countered their sheer population where allowed Han Chinese to settle in Manchuria and Mongolian proper.
1878 Heilongjiang province was populated by only 100,0 Chinese which was smaller than several time smaller than Mongolians and Manchurians. Without infrastructure there will be no big Han Chinese settlement, because of hostile environment and cold weather.
before 1850 there will no chance to control North Manchuria and whole Mongolian proper (including Inner Mongolia and Zungarian Basin) is impossible to stay in Chinese control because of demographic reason and without Chinese control there will be no Han Chinese settlement. Even with Chinese control without extensive railway network it is impossible to settle large number of Han Chinese.
 
In fact I would be most grateful for any additional information or insights you have about how Mongolia was administered under the Qing and about the internal balance of power within Mongolian society and attitudes of nobles, monks and commoners towards Russians, Qing and Han. Not being Mongolian a lot of that information if difficult for me to access:)

I'm more than glad to help you if anything I could.


Well that depends on how you define Mongolia. Large-scale Chinese immigration into Eastern Inner Mongolia, Especially Chahar actually began during the 18th century and they were a large proportion (though not a majority) of the population even in 1840. Their immigration was, at least intialy, welcomed by the Mongol nobles who found them to far more taxable than their Mongol tenants. later, attitudes soured. But I would agree that they were not militarily, socially or politically dominant in 1840.

There is very hard to find any statistic about Mongolia during 1840's but it is believed to have some 1:15 population ratio with Chinese. So Mongolia was very dominant.

From this Map you can find homogenous Mongolian land. So if 1840 Mongolia will be independent then the border will be somehow like this Map shows. And Inner Mongolia had 4 times more Mongolians than Outer Mongolia, so without dominant Han Chinese population Inner Mongolia sure will be part of independent Mongolia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russian_Empire_Map_1912.jpg

Actually Mongolian land was larger than this, but I believe others are settled by some large number of Chinese, so even though initially all of Mongolian lands circa 1650's will be under Mongolian Government, in long run those lands will be transferred to China given China could transform itself into superpower.


So there will definately be a period once Qing collapse appears certain where local Mongolian nobles seize control of the Six Leagues. Can they keep control? for how long? are they capable of adompting a common agenda and leadership?

As I stated Mongolia was never conquered (save from Zungaria) but submitted to Qing Court. The agreement was to allow Mongolians live as it and not allow Chinese to settle Mongolian land, in turn Mongolians will loyal to Qing Court. So Mongolia and Qing relationship is more like vassal relationship. Once Qing is gone Mongolians will see no longer to be part of some Dynasty. Believe me 1840 Mongolians was more nationalistic than 1911 Mongolians. So Nationalism is no question. Common agenda was always restore Great Chingiss Khaan's Mongolia. And don't forget that 1760's Mongolians tried to revolt against Qing court, 1840 is not so long period to be forget Nationalism.
 
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This sounds like the Karaethon Cycle.

Damn. Oh, well, I'll be sure to add copious spanking and soft BDSM scenes then. And also a repetitive height comparison for all the characters in every post.

Seriously though these are pretty much the visions Hong described OTL with some tweaks to orient them to a more neo-confucian mold.
 
According to Wiki, Korean immigration started in the 1860s, concurrently with the Tonghak movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_China, with 34,000 arriving by 1894, 110,000 by 1910 and 1 million or so by the time the "China incident" started. The trigger for immigration seems to have been the weakening of the Qing due to the revolts and second Opium war (which also resulted in increased Han immigration to Manchuria and Inner Mongolia) and natural disasters within Korea. If the Taiping take over the Manchuria-Korea border by, say, 1848 after a 5 year long revolt, before those disasters occur and take another 5 years to establish strict border control then I don't see that many Korean wetbacks crossing- probably less than the number which crossed by 1894 OTL.

Still, the number seems small enough that I guess it won't have much effect one way or another on the Tonghak rebellion, let alone on the 1860s disturbances. Question is whether political/Ideological reprecussions of the Fall of the Qing will have any effect on the Korean political climate.

OTOH, if immigration to inner Manchuria is blocked there is probabl;y greater immigration to the Trans-Ussuri (As I said earlier, either Russia or a rump Qing state is likely to hold onto it for the short-medium term) OTL, there were 7,000 Koreans, 20% of the population in the Trans ussuri by 1869 and 26,000 by 1897. Probably at least twice that many, maybe more, TTL.

How Isolated was Korea from China tradewise? Were some Koreans free to travel to China and return? If the Qing fall would Korea switch "tribute relations" to the Taiping automaticaly? If The Qing hold out in Northern Manchuria will Korea try to stay loyal to them? Or even seek Russian protection?

There's an interesting article here about later Korean immigration into Manchuria. http://www.jstor.org/stable/209173?seq=5

Thanks for the link. Have to work but some quick comments:
-Going by your stats some immigration was trickling in as the Qing was weakening but the vast majority of it happened after the Qing fell (110,000 Koreans when the Qing fell, the rest of one million later). So if the Qing falls sooner you'll have large-scale Korean immigration coming in sooner (but probably in lower numbers than IOTL) and less land pressure than IOTL in the late 19th century (at least marginally, earlier better sanitation and vaccines will cause an earlier population boom).
-Also would they necessarily be wetbacks? Would the Taiping have a huge problem with Koreans settling in bits of their land?
-The fall of the Qing will have a MASSIVE impact on the local Korean scene, especially since this bit of Korean history is exceptionally butterfly-prone.
-Not sure about trade links at this time but the Korean elite was tight with China at this time, the Korean alphabet was seen as something for women and the poor and even that (for example in early newspapers) was studded with Chinese characters (hanja in Korean) while they've almost disappeared these days (with a few exceptions like notations for days of the week on calendars and "small," "medium" and "large" on restaurant menus and for ultra-formal uses).
-As to Korean policy towards China, unlike other vassals they took the vassalage very seriously since Confucianism had sunken in their very deep, especially during the last dynasty which tended to be distrustful of Buddhism.

But what they do depends on who is in charge:
-When the Taiping take over it'll still be King Cheoljong who was a puppet of the Andong Kim clan. The Andong Kims will probably mostly just try to keep a hold on power and not rock the boat, I'd judge they'd do whatever they'd judge would be least likely to result in an army coming in to kick them out. Maybe Qing loyalists?
-He doesn't have a son IOTL so he adopts a member of the royal clan (King Gojong). The adopted heir's original father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heungseon_Daewongun) was a canny bastard and pretended to be a useless drunk so the Andong Kims wouldn't take him seriously and then when Cheoljong died he assumed the regency and took hold on power. As regent he was competent and cunning, but rather isolationist and traditionalistic. If the Taiping can paint themselves as more Confucian than the Qing he might jump aboard but he'd be wary of Chinese meddling in Korean affairs, was happened IOTL with Yuan Shikai pushing him aside when he tried to launch a coup against his daughter in-law later on.
-If Gojong doesn't get adopted then things get massively butterflied and you might see an anti-Andoing Kim rebellion, a vaguely-Meiji restoration of royal power by someone else or just about anything. Big scope for butterflies since there were plenty of other random princelings who could've been adopted as heir.
-Hope Queen Min doesn't get butterflied too badly. Technically she's never born (born after the POD) but she could have a very similar ATL sister. She was a badass. Even if she doesn't end up as Queen of Korea (very butterfly prone) she should do something interesting. She elbowed aside her father in-law and seized de facto power in her early twenties. She was tight with China, generally aligned with the more progressive Chinese elements and only put out feelers to Russia after the Sino-Japanese War made it clear that China couldn't defend Korea from Japan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Min

My gut tells me that the people in power at this time aren't of very high caliber and are running on inertia and they'll be loyal to the Qing longer than is wise and then spark an anti-Andong Kim rebellion for the restoration of royal power with leadership that'd be fine with being a loyal Taiping vassal, UNLESS the Taiping do anything offensive to Confucian sensibilities early on. That'd burn a lot of good will.
 
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This depends on several factors, some of which you mentioned:

1. Russia. Muraviev was appointed governor of Eastern Siberia in 1847 with a clear agenda, both personal and court based, to expand at the expense of Russia. It took him a bout six months to whip the administration into shape. But his predeccesor was much less energetic (and much more corrupt). If the Taiping take Beijing before he takes control then Russian intervention, though likely, will be delayed and less energetic. You also need to consider Russia's own avaliable power projection and priorities in the late 1840s.

The TransBaikal Cossacks have not yet been raised, Russian population and military presence in Eastern Siberia is still low (it doubled during Muraviev's tenancy), and the Irkutsk-Tomsk road is not yet complete. Also, I think the Greater Kazakh horde hasn't accepted Russian Suzerainty yet and they are having a nasty scuffle with them.

OTL, the Russians didn't move when the Taiping launched their Northen expedition in 1853. They only took the left Bank of the Amur in 1858, when the Qing were distracted by the Second Opium war. Bear in mind that this isn't 1911- there is no Russian railway extending to Mongolia. In fact, there is no Russian railway east of Moscow!

Bottom line- While the Russians may recognize any Mongolian state and even send some Cossacks and military trainers to help the speed and effectiveness they do so in depends greatly on the timing and length of the Rebellion. The longer it goes on before the Qing are defeated the more likely the Russians (and not only the Russians) are likely to seek advantage.

My point was Russia was expansionist. What holded Russia become too aggressive is because well they could get whatever they want from Qing. Without OTL late Qing period Russia will play whole different game. 1840's Russia was too strong (at least they believed so) to make concession to some "rebels". And Russians can conduct war better than Taipin rebels in Mongolia if Mongolians fully supports Russians, which is most likely.
My point is conquering and controlling Mongolia is not possible with large Chinese settlers which is not existed in 1840's.

2. Mongolian unity- My impression is that at this timepoint (1840s) there really isn't any real modern Mongolian nationalism (correct me if I'm wrong) in the sense of a literate middle class which was self concsious of it's interests Vs the Qing. So any secessionist movement is going to be one of traditional nobles whom the Qing have kept divided. Will they be able to unite around a single government as they did in 1911 or will each inner Mongolian league prince go it's own way?

Who will the dominant leaders be- Qing Bannermen deserting the sinking ship(How about Sengge Rinchen?), local nobles or the Jebtsundamba Khutuktu and the Buddhist monastic establishement?

Mongols thought themselves vassal of Qing Dynasty (was never conquered). Once Qing is fallen Mongolians instinctively will declare independence.
For leadership it will be same Jebtsundambe Khutuktu, Head of Mongolian Buddhism, because he was only acceptable. All the major princes was dircet descendent of Chingis Family. However they will have some rivalry common hatred against Chinese rule will unite them for while. Yes I think Sengge Renchen will play very big role, like defeating some military which was sent from China and further strengthen Mongolian military.

3. Logistics and cavalry. As you said any south China based rebellion is going to be short on Cavalry. And Mongolia, unlike Manchuria offers little in the way of river or sea transportation.

OTOH, OTL the Nian rebels raised a very significant Cavalry force in the yellow river valley and Sengge Rinchen had a very tough time defeating them in the field in spite of raising Inner Mongolian troops to combat the rebels.

Fact is, various factors, such as the overwhelming dominance of the Buddhist monastic establishment and the Pauperization of Mongol commoners, meant that mongol cavalry in the mid 19th century was not what it used to be under the Yuan dynasty. This trend was excaberated by Qing policy- they wanted to gradually destroy the Mongol millitary potential and they did a good job accomplishing exactly that.

So I agree that the Taiping will face a big challenge Vs the Mongols but it's not completely insurmountable- at least in Inner Mongolia.

Problem is not having successful military expedition. Mongolia is nomadic state. No cities, no settlements just a lot of moving nomads. How you will beat them and how you will control them without Chinese settlement. This nomadic life was main reason why Chinese struggled to beat Mongolia. They just could retreat further North and make military expedition untenable. After fall of Yuan Dynasty Ming army could destroy Khar-horum city the capital of Mongolia, but Mongolia was still very strong. So Taipin army will have same problem. They can destroy Urga (which itself almost impossible task), but in the end you can't beat Mongolians. they will launch counter offense just when you back home when Mongolian fall arrives. The stationing large army is out of question, they will just starve.
About military, yes 1840's Mongolian military is not Chingis army, even not 1700's Mongolian army. But Taipin rebels also not Ming army. So it is almost equal in terms of quality. Chinese military become competent after Qing military reformation of 1860's, after 2nd Opium War.

Taipin could control OTL Hohhot region, Kaalgan, Chifeng region but beyond it is impossible to conquer. The financial burden will just kill them.

4. Taiping priorities. Any successful Taiping rebellion is going to have three priorities in terms of the Northern borderlands

a. Eliminate any Qing rump state. That means that primary priority is going to be placed on Manchuria, rather than Mongolia. Since both use the same logistics routes if a Mongolian seccesionist state remains neutral in the QIng-Taiping struggle it may well be left alone. For a while anyway, and maybe indefinatelry if Russia invests a great deal in it's protection.

b. LAND! A greta deal of the force impelling the Taiping rebellion and motivating Taiping troops is the lack of land in CHina proper and it's avaliability in Manchuria and Mongolia. Manchuria, however, is by far the greater prize and Outer Mongolia (no offense intended) is not much of a prize.

c. Prevent a European foothold to the North. Russian Eastern Siberia simply doesn't produce enough food to support a large Russian military force. Manchuria and Mongolia do. So in the Long term, if the Taiping think they can get away with it they are going to try and detach any Mongolian-Manchurian protectorates from Russian control (though in the case of Mongolia they may be equally satisfied vassal state rather than a province).

a\ IMO, Mongolians will be glad to be neutral, I even think they could be pro-Taipin, if they convince it is time for Mongolians to gain independence again. That will make Taipin rebels job very easy, because it will take out whole Mongolian force from Manchu army which will make them very vulnerable.
b\ In 1840's either it is Greater Mongolia or no Mongolia. So you can't separate Inner Mongolia from Outer Mongolia. (no Chinese settlement in Inner Mongolia yet)
I can see Mongolia then launching joint expedition with Taipin to Manchurian proper to help Taipin force conquer Manchuria. Mongolians are more capable to fight in Manchuria than Chinese. Only you need to negotiate with Russians (give outer Manchuria, but retain some Japan Sea coast), Exchange for independence, Mongolia will help to conquer Manchuria for China.
c\ Russia won't back off from Mongolia. Once Mongolia fallen to other powers hand Southern Baikal will indefensible. Without secure southern Baikal whole Russian Far Eastern will be exposed to conquest. Southern Baikal is geo-strategic point. So Russians always will want to control Mongolia. Mongolia is like Switzerland, buffer zone between to Great Power.
 
5. Possibility of Mongol-Chinese accomodation. Depending on how the Mongolian internal political scene and on whether a strong Qing rump state survives in Manchuria to fixate Taiping attention I can see A Mongolian government or some governments (if Inner Mongolian princes and generals fail to unify and struggle for dominance) agree to become Taiping "tributary states" and surrender foreign policy to it. On the long run that will of course create tension (over immigration, military force movements, contributions to common dfense, railroads, etc),clashes and possibly a tug of war with Russia.

Bottom line:

Without giving away too many spoliers I think outer Mongolia, Outer Manchuria , the illi Basin and Kashgaria will almost certainly become Russian protectorates or independent for the short-medium term and possibly for the long term. And that's no great loss for real chinese power- only for prestige.

Southern Manchuria (Liaoning), parts of Eastern and Southern Inner Mongolia, Inner Tibet (Qinghai) and Gansu will almost certainly be incorporated after some resistance into the Taiping state.

Everything in between (Most of Inner Mongolia, Heilongjiang, Jilin, Outer Tibet, Most of Xinjiang) is something I see as possibly going either way and I'm open for discussion about it :)

In fact I would be most grateful for any additional information or insights you have about how Mongolia was administered under the Qing and about the internal balance of power within Mongolian society and attitudes of nobles, monks and commoners towards Russians, Qing and Han. Not being Mongolian a lot of that information if difficult for me to access:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ru...e_Map_1912.jpg - within this land it is debatable. Mongolian nobles were ready to cooperate with Communists just to expel Chinese forces from Mongolia in 1921. Interesting fact is West Mongolians or Oirats was eager to bribe. In 1911 they were ready to accept ROC rule because of some bitter relationship with Khalkha nobles.

Once China become Great Power, Mongolia will be under Economic orbit of China, if they not become Communist.
 
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