The Graduate: a very different Taiping timeline

I'm increasingly realizing that I'm out of my depth in comprehending all the implications of Hanzi on those who use it. I can understand, sorta-kinda, the technicalities of what you are saying and how Hanzi fits together... but I have a difficulty in feeling it or comprehending how one thinks within the constraints and potentialities of such a language.
Think about it this way: If someone reads me a classical poem or text aloud, I have no idea what the hell it's saying.

With newspapers, you need to be reading to unambiguously figure out what is being said. In news reports on TV, the context is unraveled fairly quickly, but it's simply not as clear as having the text there. In fact Chinese news almost always has subtitles, not just for the sake of people who don't know Mandarin, but to clear up any un-clarity.

When you try to think, rather than speak or write the concepts, you described in Hanzi what do you experience? Can you "think" in Hanzi or do you think soley in the vernacular or English?
I do not think in anything but vernacular Mandarin and English, because I did not grow up reading much Chinese and was not schooled in it until recently. However, once I started learning higher vocabulary, I found that I could only remember it if I ingrained not just the sound but the characters into my head. Even just the general shape is fine.

I'm used to reading Latin letters, and I also learned Pinyin before Hanzi. Yet I still can't understand Chinese written in Pinyin much faster than if it's in Hanzi (more on this below). When I read Hanzi, my mind has a habit in some case of conjuring the pinyin instead of going directly to the sound, and this sometimes causes confusion. I tend to see a certain character wrong, think it's a different one, and try with bad results to make the sentence work according to the wrong meaning. If I didn't have the concept of pinyin in my head, I would have gone, if a little more slowly, directly to the correct pronunciation and along with it the correct meaning.

I have often talked with my mother, who is Chinese, about this issue. She learned Japanese and became fluent in it. I asked her if she had difficulties adapting to the Japanese readings of the Hanzi, and she said it wasn't really problem even the cases that the native pronunciation (totally different from the Chinese, in other words) was the correct one. The important factor is the picture and the meaning, which then instantly transform into sound, rather than the picture already being sound.

There was a test done by the Japanese that looked at the speed with which people could read signs on the street. Americans, reading English, were calculated to have understood the meaning in 0.8 seconds. Japanese reading hiragana understood it in 0.6 seconds. Japanese reading Hanzi understood it in 0.06 seconds. I don't have a source, so feel free to dismiss it, but given all my experiences with Chinese people I think it's valid.

My personal experience has been that my thought processes and associations when I think in modern Hebrew are quite different than when I think in English and when I try to think in MS Arabic they are more different yet. Native Arab speakers with whom I've associated who moved from speaking their local dialects or colluqial Arabic as children to adopting the MS Arabic through exposure to Media and/or university education describe a similliar bifurcation in associations.
The thing is that these languages are still phonetically-based. There is a high degree of phonetic production occurring in their vocabularies. I know English and German, and a small amount of Russian. Every one of these seems different to me and it takes some time to get into the correct mentality as far as the spoken language is concerned, but reading and working out the written word is pretty much the same for me across the board. Even Cyrillic is fairly easy to get used to. But Chinese simply doesn't mesh with an alphabetized script.

I think it really is the homophones. There are those tests they do where you take an English paragraph and misspell every word as much as possible, but they found that if the first and last letters stay unchanged, people fluent in English can understand it, albeit at a slower pace, like reading bad handwriting. This is because the words in English are generally different enough that they can form their own unique shapes in our minds, and when we read them, we see them as wholes, in a similar logic to how the Chinese see Hanzi. Chinese is not like this. The phoneticized lexicon contains far too many duplicates and similarities to create "natural shapes" that are unique enough to be recognized and understood with efficient speed.

I wonder if some of the resistance to completely replacing Hanzi has to do not with technical issues or cultural resistance but simply to the fact that those familiar with Hanzi found they could not think in Pinyin or Zhuyin or whatever the same way... and therefore found it inferior.
Again, using myself as an example: I should be able to read Pinyin Chinese more or less fluently, because spoken Mandarin is at least a semi-native language to me, and because I am used to the Roman alphabet and I learned Pinyin before Hanzi. But I can't read it very fast at all. I can't read it anywhere near as fast as I read German, which I didn't study until a few years ago.

I also wonder if the way Hanzi works might have widened the conceptual gap between Literati and non-Literati even more than existed between the elites and the proles in the West.
I think that illiteracy would not have severely impacted the ability of the Chinese proles to perceive things in a way similar to the literati, but that they would've found it much more difficult to to express themselves or complicated subjects, instead opting to use local dialectic slang for whatever might be needed. They might pick up some select literary sayings that would be otherwise incomprehensible to them, be it through provincial theater entertainment or a limited amount of education imparted from village elders or something, but they would be stuck at that limited level until they got the chance to learn Hanzi.


EDIT: I kind of want you to write the next update, so feel free not to waste the energy to respond to this. :)
 
EDIT: I kind of want you to write the next update, so feel free not to waste the energy to respond to this. :)

Expect next update Thursday (off to Tikkun+ hike during our Shavuot Holiday http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot in about an hour) and will put the language issue on the back-burner till the post after that.

But to summarize your take: A fully phonetic alphabet (even with ancillary symbols like Nikkud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkud to denote pronounciation) of a Mandarin vernacular dialect would quite simply never be as efficient or comprehensible as a Western (or Korean or Vietnamese) equivalent- unless the Vernacular itself was reformed to reduce homophones which would probably involve excising a large portion of the vocabulary, replacing existing roots with new ones containing sounds not indeginous to Mandarin, and generally mucking up the vernacular to such an extent that no one knowing pre-reform Mandarin would find it comprehensible.

And If that is the only way to do things then from a utilatiarian, culture neutral perspective you may as well invent a new language altogether (Asian Esperanto) which draws most but not all of it's vocabulary from various Mandarin and non-Mandarin dialects.

The Taiping won't be able to launch such a project in the 1850s-1860s. Or anytime during the 19th century. And by the time the lingusitic expertise to do so is avaliable the moment of fluidity when such a massive social re-engineering has a chance of succeeding will probably pass. For one thing the scholar-gentry class will have been integrated into the administration by then.

Any other native Mandarin speakers with a second opinion?

BTW is your father Japanese or American?
 
democracy's post does a pretty good job of explaining the mechanics of the issue. However, I stand by my position that Hanzi/Hanja/Kanji remain useful for the purpose of greater flexibility of lexical production and precision of meaning. For non-Chinese languages, it makes sense to have at least partially-phonetic systems, since they have their native vernacular lexicons which have no relation to Hanzi, but since by and large almost all Chinese words have corresponding characters that convey meaning rather than sound (i.e. the Hanzi are more or less tailored to the spoken language), there is no linguistic difficulty in retaining them for all parts of the language.

While retaining Chinese characters might work for Chinese dialects, the same is not necessarily true for Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese, as the comparisons are technically indirect in each case. Although the latter three possess a large amount of Sino-Xenic vocabulary, they are also frequently replaced by their native counterparts whenever possible, so the ratio between the two, at least in spoken conversations, generally tilts towards the latter. The usage of borrowed vocabulary does increase significantly when using highly technical terms, but those cases usually apply to a small minority of the population, so is not really relevant. In addition, loan words from other foreign languages, such as English, are also frequently borrowed directly into the three languages as well, as opposed to the Chinese dialects, which often attempt to break the words down semantically partially due to limitations in pronunciation, highlighting another key difference between the two. I'm not sure about Vietnamese, but Korean and Japanese also use a much larger amount of grammatical particles than Chinese, which would greatly aid the reader or listener in separating the individual components.

In terms of Korean, mixed script, which uses Chinese characters for Sino-Korean terms and Hangul for the remainder, was used for most of the 20th century, but the educational system was not consistent, as it gradually began to phase out the Hanja curriculum to the point where some students never learned the system around 1960-80. In any case, the mixed script was gradually phased out by newspapers during the 1990s, making it theoretically possible to read and write for the most part without learning any Hanja after the transition. Hanja glosses are still occasionally provided for disambiguation, but they are extremely minimal, and solely using Hangul generally does not pose any problems to comprehension. On the other hand, Japanese still utilizes Kanji because it has a much higher amount of homophones, and it managed to systematically map Native Japanese words to Chinese characters, so it represents a special scenario different from that of Chinese. In addition, Vietnamese has essentially abandoned Han Tu and Chu Nom altogether, and the fact that no serious reforms have been considered suggest that there are no major issues with Quoc Ngu. However, this is probably due to the fact that Vietnamese has a larger amount of possible syllables than Mandarin, Korean, or Japanese after taking tones into account, so it also represents a different situation.

Speaking from personal experience, I learned most of the Sino-Korean terminology without learning how they were written in Hanja, and I understood them in most written and spoken contexts. Learning them beforehand also helped me significantly when learning them in Mandarin, but this shows that prior knowledge of Chinese characters was not necessary in order to understand Korean as a whole. I also realized that many of the words that I had assumed to be Native Korean were actually Sino-Korean, suggesting that a significant amount of the foreign terminology has already been integrated seamlessly into Korean. My mother also knows a significant amount of Sino-Korean words without knowing their Sino-Korean components, and while she can read Hanja, she has no trouble reading and understanding the content within newspapers. As a result, while learning Chinese characters can certainly aid the process of learning or understanding Korean, it is far from a requirement, similar to the situation between English and Latin.

In other words, while the arguments presented after the quote may apply to Chinese dialects, the same logic does not necessarily apply to Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese for various reasons, so they are not technically comparable as a whole. To sum up, while it might be easier to semantically comprehend words when they are rendered in Chinese characters, most people have little trouble understanding them solely by their general meaning, and would be more willing to learn one system instead of two.

Let's look at some news headlines, the style of which, unlike Classical Chinese, is still in common use.

紐時:中國經濟下行風險強大
Literally - New (loanword) Time: central-state-pass-aid-down-move-wind-danger-strong-big
Translation: New York Times: Chinese Economic Slump at Risk of Exacerbation

奧巴馬:國稅局針對保守黨政治查稅「離譜」
Literally - Obama (loanword): state-tax-office-needle-towards-protect-conserve-party-policy-rule-check-tax-"leave-chart"
Translation: Obama: IRS's political targeting of conservative groups "uncalled for"

世衛警告發生冠狀病毒快速蔓延
Literally - World-guard-alert-report-arise-birth-crown-shape-illness-poison-fast-speed-spread-prolong
Translation: World Health Organization Warns of Crown-shaped Virus's Rapid Spread

Most of that is specialized vocabulary.
If all that were in pinyin the reader would be screwed. These sentences, not being particularly vernacular, are not so much composed of words as they are morphemes. The "context" wouldn't be of much help. But in Hanzi it works seamlessly.

I can't translate these titles directly into Korean, but I will say that many of these components can be replaced with direct loanwords or their counterparts in Native Korean. For example, "Obama" would be rendered as "오바마" (without a Sino-Korean counterpart), which is similar to the method used in Chinese, and "IRS" and "WTO" would probably be rendered as they are in English, instead of using a semantic translation. In addition, components like "下行" and "強大" will be replaced with their Native Korean counterparts, not to mention that grammatical particles will be added as well, which would greatly aid understanding as they would separate words from each other.

Also, these examples are taken from titles, which usually attempt to summarize the content instead of providing a detailed description.
 
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democracy, I was speaking with Chinese languages in mind, not the Sino-Xenic ones, when discussing the utility of a pure phonetic system. As it regards Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese you are most probably correct (although I would disagree about Japanese from personal experience and from correspondence with native speakers), as those languages are not genetically related to Chinese and only got the Sino-Xenic vocabulary through borrowing.

yboxman said:
Expect next update Thursday (off to Tikkun+ hike during our Shavuot Holiday http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot in about an hour) and will put the language issue on the back-burner till the post after that.
Looking forward to it. Enjoy your holiday.

But to summarize your take: A fully phonetic alphabet (even with ancillary symbols like Nikkud http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikkud to denote pronounciation) of a Mandarin vernacular dialect would quite simply never be as efficient or comprehensible as a Western (or Korean or Vietnamese) equivalent- unless the Vernacular itself was reformed to reduce homophones which would probably involve excising a large portion of the vocabulary, replacing existing roots with new ones containing sounds not indeginous to Mandarin, and generally mucking up the vernacular to such an extent that no one knowing pre-reform Mandarin would find it comprehensible.

And If that is the only way to do things then from a utilatiarian, culture neutral perspective you may as well invent a new language altogether (Asian Esperanto) which draws most but not all of it's vocabulary from various Mandarin and non-Mandarin dialects.
This is pretty much the case, and essentially what I was attempting to get at.

The Taiping won't be able to launch such a project in the 1850s-1860s. Or anytime during the 19th century. And by the time the lingusitic expertise to do so is avaliable the moment of fluidity when such a massive social re-engineering has a chance of succeeding will probably pass. For one thing the scholar-gentry class will have been integrated into the administration by then.
The thing is that we have OTL to look at in judging the success of Hanzi, be it with traditional characters in Taiwan or simplified in the PRC. By the time the Taiping government is on its way to modernization in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, you'd have a lot of people already literate in Hanzi and doing fine with it. The gentry would be integrated but the written language, plus whatever reforms it naturally undergoes to incorporate foreign scientific and intellectual innovations, would have already taken root in a more general educated class.

BTW is your father Japanese or American?
Father is American. Parents met each other because they both studied in Japan.
 
democracy, I was speaking with Chinese languages in mind, not the Sino-Xenic ones, when discussing the utility of a pure phonetic system. As it regards Korean, Japanese, and Vietnamese you are most probably correct (although I would disagree about Japanese from personal experience and from correspondence with native speakers), as those languages are not genetically related to Chinese and only got the Sino-Xenic vocabulary through borrowing.

That's fine, but you had stated earlier:

However, I stand by my position that Hanzi/Hanja/Kanji remain useful for the purpose of greater flexibility of lexical production and precision of meaning. For non-Chinese languages, it makes sense to have at least partially-phonetic systems, since they have their native vernacular lexicons which have no relation to Hanzi, but since by and large almost all Chinese words have corresponding characters that convey meaning rather than sound (i.e. the Hanzi are more or less tailored to the spoken language), there is no linguistic difficulty in retaining them for all parts of the language.

As a result, I was under the impression that your assumptions were along the lines of how a mixed script incorporating Chinese characters and phonetic systems were suitable for Korean and Vietnamese, which is why I provided reasons for why this was not necessarily the case. Within Korean, for example, although estimates for the proportion of Sino-Korean terminology range from 30-60%, the high estimate includes words that are obsolete, while the low one is generally limited to vernacular speech. This means that while the proportion might reach 40-50% in formal contexts, it will generally hover around 20-40% in most cases. In other words, it makes less sense for the general public to learn ~2000 characters when they can communicate by solely using Hangul, and while the mixed script is still used for some official documents, this is far from the written norm. This was why I concluded that purely phonetic systems for Korean and Vietnamese were just as efficient as, if not more than, mixed scripts utilizing both systems.

I had also stated why Japanese was more suited to utilizing a mixture of kana and kanji, although my main point was that there were two main reasons for retaining both, which highlighted how its situation was different from that of Korean and Vietnamese, not to mention Chinese, due to the lack of imported vocabulary concerning the latter.
 
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France was what I had in mid actually- only 60% or so of Frenchmen spoke what we would recognize as "french" when the revolution broke out. But Italy is an even better example- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language#History Northern and southern dialects were mutually unintelligible and Dante's "standardized version" was understood by less than 5%(!!) of the population.

Actually, Italy's not a very good example, really. Italian could be and was imposed on the premise that it was the historical language of the country. It's not even a totally outrageous assertion, given that the vast majority of the Italian renaissance classics were written in it. Or rather in it's closest natural parent.

I think it's been said below, but one of the main obstacles to a vernacular language is that you would necessarily vastly multiply the length of spoken and written Chinese.
 
I don't know how useful this might be, but....

As a native English speaker who picked up French and Italian as a young adult, I came to China intending to only learn the spoken language. As such I bought up an enormous number of children's books - the only significant source of hanyu pinyin. They did help me a lot, getting started, but honestly I found I hit the wall of character-based ambiguities pretty quickly.

Pinyin could be a more complete system - for one, since early education makes tone marks "immature," anything written for adults that for some reason includes pinyin lacks them, and so is impossible to pronounce unless you already know it. That's easy. More regular diacriticals to differentiate things like jian'gan from jiang'an or ji'an'gan would be wise. And if only there was a real spacing system! But eventually I realized that even given all that, I would be regularly struggling with meaning. It'd be much easier to rely on the hanzi as memorization devices, and within a year I'd more or less given up. To my mind pinyin isn't Chinese, as much as it might be billed as such. It's a teaching tool (of English as much as Chinese). It's a step toward internationalization. It even has value in advertising. But it barely approaches what Chinese is.

For what it's worth.
 
To return to my original question- is there any barrier to representing one dialect (Hakka, Nanking Mandarin, Beijing Mandarin) phonetically? If there is no such technical barrier the issues can be parsed down to:

Technical:
1. Can the classics be translated into a phonetic script based on one of those dialects without losing their meaning and relevance? Do Pinyin translations of the classics exist (I assume they do) and how awful are they?

I have some - The Romance of the Three Kingdoms and 300 Tang-era porms, that I've really looked into. They're fine, but as others have said, they're only legible because the hanzi are above each pinyin sound as a reference tool.

Cultural:
2. Can that dialect be propagated as the official "imperial tongue" to such an extent that other dialects will be reduced to "hillbilly holdouts" (I'm talking about the core of Inner China not places like Yunnan)?

It'd be messy. The Republic and then People's Republic "imposed" what had already been the linguistic standard for centuries. Small wonder they could pull off what was already taken for granted. Imposing Kèjiā would be a royal mess.

3. What are the literati options for opposing such a policy, besides obstructionism, if it is adopted early in the regime when many key officials are still self-tought military of peasant background rather than scholar gentry?
4. If a proto-pinyin vernacular based "Xiquan bible" (Possibly including some of the classics as an "Old testament") is propagated by the Taiping to the masses how long will it take the literati to realize what kind of threat it poses to their monopoly?
5. If Taiping imperial examinations require mastery of subject matter in proto-Pinyin rather than Hanzi will scholar gentry study for them and attend them- or will they initially boycott them?

Dunno.

6. How sectional is the attachment to Hanzi? Will opposition come mainly from the scholar gentry or will the peasant masses and urban merchants also view attempts to replace it as an assault on their identity?

Literacy was low, but it was also high by premodern European standards. Simple, official, and lucky characters seem to have been universal. And in some regions (I honestly don't know how widespread it was) virtually everyone was literate as far as place names, as well as personal, family, and style names. I suspect disaffected scholars would have an easy time rousing peasants against such a visual and visceral change. Of course when and if the peasants learn that language, that's off the table.

7. Will the use of a single dialect rather than ancient non-vernacular as a basis for a "national language" arouse additional antagonism? how significant are regional rivalries and identities at this time point? Will certain dialects arouse more antagonism than others? Hakka for example will certainly cause both Punti and Zhou to view the national language as an imposition (and the vocobulary will not be intelligible to Mandarin speakers). But will a Mandarin dialect be acceptable to other Mandarin speakers and/or the south?

Beijing dialect won't even be questioned. Similar Mandarin dialects would likewise cause limited disruption. But if there's a big shift, then everyone looks up and pays attention. At that point people start paying attention to linguistic groups, getting defensive about their version of the language, and you have the possibility of local nationalism (Texas, not France) appearing. Which I suspect is a lot of why governments have avoided tampering with the national dialect.
 
Think about it this way: If someone reads me a classical poem or text aloud, I have no idea what the hell it's saying.

With newspapers, you need to be reading to unambiguously figure out what is being said. In news reports on TV, the context is unraveled fairly quickly, but it's simply not as clear as having the text there. In fact Chinese news almost always has subtitles, not just for the sake of people who don't know Mandarin, but to clear up any un-clarity.


I do not think in anything but vernacular Mandarin and English, because I did not grow up reading much Chinese and was not schooled in it until recently. However, once I started learning higher vocabulary, I found that I could only remember it if I ingrained not just the sound but the characters into my head. Even just the general shape is fine.

I'm used to reading Latin letters, and I also learned Pinyin before Hanzi. Yet I still can't understand Chinese written in Pinyin much faster than if it's in Hanzi (more on this below). When I read Hanzi, my mind has a habit in some case of conjuring the pinyin instead of going directly to the sound, and this sometimes causes confusion. I tend to see a certain character wrong, think it's a different one, and try with bad results to make the sentence work according to the wrong meaning. If I didn't have the concept of pinyin in my head, I would have gone, if a little more slowly, directly to the correct pronunciation and along with it the correct meaning.

I have often talked with my mother, who is Chinese, about this issue. She learned Japanese and became fluent in it. I asked her if she had difficulties adapting to the Japanese readings of the Hanzi, and she said it wasn't really problem even the cases that the native pronunciation (totally different from the Chinese, in other words) was the correct one. The important factor is the picture and the meaning, which then instantly transform into sound, rather than the picture already being sound.

There was a test done by the Japanese that looked at the speed with which people could read signs on the street. Americans, reading English, were calculated to have understood the meaning in 0.8 seconds. Japanese reading hiragana understood it in 0.6 seconds. Japanese reading Hanzi understood it in 0.06 seconds. I don't have a source, so feel free to dismiss it, but given all my experiences with Chinese people I think it's valid.


The thing is that these languages are still phonetically-based. There is a high degree of phonetic production occurring in their vocabularies. I know English and German, and a small amount of Russian. Every one of these seems different to me and it takes some time to get into the correct mentality as far as the spoken language is concerned, but reading and working out the written word is pretty much the same for me across the board. Even Cyrillic is fairly easy to get used to. But Chinese simply doesn't mesh with an alphabetized script.

I think it really is the homophones. There are those tests they do where you take an English paragraph and misspell every word as much as possible, but they found that if the first and last letters stay unchanged, people fluent in English can understand it, albeit at a slower pace, like reading bad handwriting. This is because the words in English are generally different enough that they can form their own unique shapes in our minds, and when we read them, we see them as wholes, in a similar logic to how the Chinese see Hanzi. Chinese is not like this. The phoneticized lexicon contains far too many duplicates and similarities to create "natural shapes" that are unique enough to be recognized and understood with efficient speed.


Again, using myself as an example: I should be able to read Pinyin Chinese more or less fluently, because spoken Mandarin is at least a semi-native language to me, and because I am used to the Roman alphabet and I learned Pinyin before Hanzi. But I can't read it very fast at all. I can't read it anywhere near as fast as I read German, which I didn't study until a few years ago.


I think that illiteracy would not have severely impacted the ability of the Chinese proles to perceive things in a way similar to the literati, but that they would've found it much more difficult to to express themselves or complicated subjects, instead opting to use local dialectic slang for whatever might be needed. They might pick up some select literary sayings that would be otherwise incomprehensible to them, be it through provincial theater entertainment or a limited amount of education imparted from village elders or something, but they would be stuck at that limited level until they got the chance to learn Hanzi.


EDIT: I kind of want you to write the next update, so feel free not to waste the energy to respond to this. :)

Thank you for writing this. It expresses a lot of the feel I've had trying to learn this language in a way no one really talks about. And to find someone with your background having a similar experience is somehow vaguely a relief. :)
 
Thank you for writing this. It expresses a lot of the feel I've had trying to learn this language in a way no one really talks about. And to find someone with your background having a similar experience is somehow vaguely a relief. :)
Haha thanks. It's a not relief for me though, my major is Chinese and I need to get good at this stuff. :p
 
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