@material_boy , just finished the chapter! Amazing work as always! You're one of the best for a reason! Can't wait to see more od Ed V awesomeness!
You might be in for a treat then. I've put together a roadmap for the rest of Phase 2 that includes four possible visits to the Pyrenees and southern France ...Occitània will be always on my mind...
I voted for the Battle of Newcastle, Edward V will succeed where Longshanks couldn't 😎😎😎.The options for the next update after Guelders War are:
- Battle of Newcastle: Edward V chooses his ambitions in Britain over his ambitions on the continent, with major consequences for both England and Scotland.
- Provençal Civil War: Carlo III invades Provence with dreams of sacking Avignon, but is he already too late?
I low-key love Charles the Bad, but also low-key love the way Charles V just handed his brother-in-law his ass over and over and over again. Charles V was just so much better at kinging than his father and he really was done with Charles the Bad's shit (both in OTL and ATL)I kinda feel bad for Charles II, all his life was filled with greater men refusing him and denying his status/lands.
Sancerre traveled south toward Aragon, which offered him safe passage through the Pyrenees and back into France, but he was stopped at Tudela by a squire in the service of the prince of Viana. The prince's younger siblings had been prisoners of the French crown for nearly five years by this time and, though they lived comfortably as guests of their uncle, the duke of Burgundy, two of the prince's younger sisters had already died in France. His sister Blanche had died in an outbreak of plague in 1382. His other sister, Bonne, had died shortly before Sancerre's mission left France in early 1383. The prince would not allow the opportunity to secure the release of the surviving infantes to slip by and offered to make himself a prisoner of the French in exchange for his brother and sisters' release. As heir to Navarre, he was a significantly more valuable prisoner than they were. Talks for an exchange of hostages proceeded secretly.
On 14 October, the prince of Viana surrendered himself to the French at Tarazona, an Aragonese town on the border with Navarre. His surviving sisters, Jeanne and Bonne, were handed over to men loyal to the prince and escorted back to Pamplona. Their brother, Pierre, chose to remain in Paris. The prince of Viana's wife, Elizabeth of Lancaster, was not informed of the prince's plans until after the prisoner exchange had happened. She was likely left behind because she was pregnant at the time and the journey was deemed too difficult in her state. She gave birth to a short-lived daughter, named Jeanne, early in 1384. Elizabeth refused to join her husband in Paris after she recovered from the childbirth, viewing his actions as a betrayal of Navarre's alliance with her father. The young couple became estranged for a time.
I proofread these things so many times and still miss stuff like this? 😩
Although it seems like the other option has already won I vote for the Provencal Civil War.Cast your vote now!
- Battle of Newcastle: Edward V chooses his ambitions in Britain over his ambitions on the continent, with major consequences for both England and Scotland.
- Provençal Civil War: Carlo III invades Provence with dreams of sacking Avignon, but is he already too late?
I had written a bit about Longueville, Logroño and Vitoria, etc., but cut it out because I thought it was getting a bit too in the weeds about land transactions that probably no one but me cared aboutA curious detail is that unlike IOTL Charles III was able to return not only Evreux but also Longueville. While Longueville is not a particularly large county on itself, I wonder if this makes Charles less willing to exchange his Normandian lands for Nemours (which he IOTL did in 1404) - not only it is his ancestral land, it also makes more sense to have a more compact demesne.
Another question in relation to Navarrese kingdom is if Charles was able to retain territory captured from Castille after battle of Estella as well as with the help of Despenser’s crusaders (Vitoria, Logroño as well a number of smaller towns such as Alfaro). While it is not stated either way, I do think that this couldn’t have happened before the Treaty of Bayonne (i. e. before late 1384) and immediately after Juan’s death Bernardo probably cannot afford to wage a war on Navarre. And after Charles II dies Bernardo probably cannot afford to attack French ally.
So presumably either Navarre still holds all these places (with or without Castilian recognition). Another possibility that at some point (either while Charles II is still alive or when Charles III finally gets back to Pamplona) peace negotiation happen and probably Castile gets some of the towns back in exchange for recognizing the rest as part of Navarre.
Yeah, Newcastle has run away with it. I've already gotten it half written, but maybe I can crank out something quick on this for a bonus update.Although it seems like the other option has already won I vote for the Provencal Civil War.
The Angevin inheritance goes very differently, though we won't get into that until Provençal Civil War at the earliest. There is a tiny (one word!) reference to this in a past update, but I don't think anyone caught it. (Though, with you asking about the border towns and Tyler catching my infantas typo, maybe y'all at paying closer attention that I think!) Part of me has considered going back and taking it out to give myself more flexibility going forward, but I think I'm just going to plow ahead with it since I already put it out there.And judging by the fact that Charles of Durazzo is able to wage war in Provence, it probably means that he survived the assassination attempt by Elizabeth of Bosnia which leads to massive repercussions in Hungary, Poland and HRE. Charles living presumably means that he was able not only to avoid being killed, but also able to deal with Sigismund’s invasion (or maybe Sigismund is not able to get Maria’s hand due to butterflies which also changes a great deal)
I do think that Hungary would always be a priority for Charles so if he is in Provence this means that Hungary is securely in his hands (and hence the changes written above).
However even if he for whatever reasons comes to Provence before Hungary, this leads to similar consequences as long as he doesn’t die there. Charles would still come to Hungary and would probably be victorious (IOTL he definitely had much larger support than Maria). Even if Elizabeth lives longer than IOTL (she was killed by Charles’s supporters), different timing means that not only Charles’s assassination can be easily butterflied away due to different timing, Mary would probably marry someone other than Sigismund in the meantime, so major changes happen even if Charles is killed as IOTL.
Amazing! can't wait! Ned does well on focusing on Britain first!Yeah, Newcastle has run away with it. I've already gotten it half written, but maybe I can crank out something quick on this for a bonus update.
It is a little bit of a disappointing outcome for Navarre even if definitely plausible. I hoped that given the mess Castile is in, Charles would be able to make at least part of his father’s gains permanent.Castile will bribe the captain of Vitoria back to their side and then grant the town its first charter to ensure it has a reason to stay on-side in the future. Navarre's position in the marches goes a bit wobbly as a result, and so Charles III opens talks with Bernardo to iron out the details of the border. A French delegation sits in to observe the talks, which ultimately end with Castile buying back the lands and the two sides formalizing the border as tensions between Aragon and Castile heat up. (More on that in a later update.)
I tried to find it, but unfortunately was unable to(The Angevin inheritance goes very differently, though we won't get into that until Provençal Civil War at the earliest. There is a tiny (one word!) reference to this in a past update, but I don't think anyone caught it. (Though, with you asking about the border towns and Tyler catching my infantas typo, maybe y'all at paying closer attention that I think!) Part of me has considered going back and taking it out to give myself more flexibility going forward, but I think I'm just going to plow ahead with it since I already put it out there.
Part of the reason I cut what I had written and went with a more general "things were resolved" was specifically because I kept going back and forth on Alfaro and Logroño!It is a little bit of a disappointing outcome for Navarre even if definitely plausible. I hoped that given the mess Castile is in, Charles would be able to make at least part of his father’s gains permanent.
Given the support by France and the upcoming Castilian-Aragonese tensions returning Alfaro for Castile recognizing the loss of Logroño or vice versa must have been withing Charles’s reach.
The word is "Catherine" 🤫I tried to find it, but unfortunately was unable to(
If the question is what would Charles prefer, I think Logroño should be a clear favorite.Part of the reason I cut what I had written and went with a more general "things were resolved" was specifically because I kept going back and forth on Alfaro and Logroño!
I had the same thought you did here, that Charles III could probably get one or the other. But I couldn't choose between them, and then thought "eh, maybe Casilte would just buy them both back?" And after spending too much time agonizing over it, I figured that "OK, you're really getting too in the weeds on this land stuff, just move on."
Maybe I'll go back and add a sentence about it
Catherine surviving does indeed lead to massive consequences.The word is "Catherine" 🤫
edit: OK, I won't be quite so coy. From the "Schism" section of "Neapolitan Crusades:"
In June 1379, Louis of Hungary endorsed Urban VI. He also broke his eldest daughter, Catherine's, betrothal to Louis of France, the younger son of King Charles V of France, who was obedient to Avignon. At this time, Carlo of Durazzo was at the head of a Hungarian army, skirmishing with the Venetians. Carlo soon became the subject of a plot by Louis of Hungary and Urban VI to unseat Giovanna. As Naples was a papal fief, Urban agreed to depose Giovanna and crown Carlo as the new king. Louis would allow Carlo to lead his Hungarian forces into Italy, and would even provide thousands more, in exchange for Carlo conceding his claim to the crown of Hungary and recognizing Louis's daughters as the rightful heiresses to Louis's territories. Carlo agreed.
In OTL, Catherine died of unknown causes in 1378, before her father declared for Urban. In ATL, she survives and Louis breaks her betrothal from Louis of Orléans. The survival of a third Angevin daughter has major repercussions.
I think this is great, and you've hit on more than one of my thoughts between this post and your last one. But I won't be getting into things too deeply, tbh. It is still meant to be an Edward of Angoulême timeline, with the Hundred Years War as its focus. The Angevin inheritance is very much at the periphery of this, and its effects on Lithuania (i.e., something even further beyond the Capetian-Angevin lands) might only get a sentence or two. I doubt I'll mention Muscovy at all. Right now, the furthest we've gotten from England and France is Iberia and Italy, and Castile was a major player in the war at the time of our POD, so it was directly relevant. Italy is more closely related to events in the HYW than Hungary or Poland, and it only got one update. All of which is to say that, if and when we do visit eastern Europe, it certainly won't be to the same degree we have other places so far.Catherine surviving does indeed lead to massive consequences.
One of the most important ones is that Hedwig, having two elder sisters, probably doesn’t become the Queen of Poland.
I am not sure who of Catherine and Mary gets Poland and who gets Hungary, but I think the probability of Mary going to Poland should be higher for at least two reasons. Firstly, her betrothal to Sigismund was in infancy and shouldn’t be impacted by Catherine surviving and it makes a lot more sense to unite Brandenburg (elector of which Sigismund is in 1380s) with Poland than with Hungary. Secondly while prestige-wise kingdoms of Hungary and Poland are probably in the same tier, having the elder daughter get the primary title of her father makes more sense.
What does Hedwig get in such a scenario? Either no independent major title of her own (although undoubtably she will receive a generous appanage) or she can become the queen of Galicia-Volhynia. No matter what is the status of Hedwig, Mary being the queen of Poland instead of her can lead to extremely interesting consequences. While this is probably going a bit too far away, I will elaborate a little bit.
If the option of inheriting Poland is not on the table Jogaila probably marries the Sofia, daughter of Dmitry Donskoy of Moscow as he originally intended to and thus stays Orthodox (or converts to it, but it is usually accepted that he was christened to Orthodoxy in childhood by his mother). There was a treaty signed in 1384 between Jogaila and Dmitry by which Jogaila was to marry Sofia, he and his brothers Skrigaila and Kaributas were to recognize Dmitry’s seniority and to baptize Lithuania to the Orthodox rite. IOTL Jogaila backtracked from this treaty as the option to marry Hedwig and thus to become the king of Poland materialized. But if ITTL Mary is the queen of Poland, this option isn’t present (as Mary is betrothed to Sigismund) and thus the alliance with Moscow against the Golden Horde, Vytautas and Teutonic Order is the best offer present: even if Hedwig is queen of Galicia-Volhynia, alliance with it is much less promising than alliance with Grand Duchy of Moscow (as Gediminids controlled basically all Volhynia anyway).
On the other hand, Hedwig is queen of Galicia-Volhynia (and if she doesn’t marry William, see below), it makes a lot of sense for Vytautas and his brothers to make an alliance with her as their power base is located was located in the western part of GDL. Vytautas was definitely married IOTL in the 1380s and probably is married ITTL as well, but one of his brothers (Sigismund or Tautvilas) can potentially be a good match. All 3 brothers are Catholics by 1383-1384 (although Vytautas did briefly switched into Orthodoxy in 1384-1386) which should be important for pious Hedwig.
Thus by the end of 1380-s when the knew iteration of Lithuanian Civil War starts we can see an Orthodox central and eastern GDL under Jogaila supported by Moscow fighting against Сatholic Vytautas and his brothers based in Podlachia, Grodno and Brest principalities and Galicia-Volhynia (if Hedwing doesn’t become queen of Galicia-Volhynia, just Volhynia) supported by Teutons and if Hedwig marries one of his brothers possibly to some limited extent by Poland or Hungary (which is an interesting contrast as IOTL Moscow supported Vytautas and Poland fully supported Jogaila).
Catherine surviving could also lead to interesting consequences for Habsburgs. IOTL Hedwig was betrothed to William of Austria (and presumably ITTL as well as this happened before Catharine died), who was smitten with his bride. However Polish nobles didn’t want to have a king in his early teens and forced Hedwig to marry Jogaila. As a result, William’s father Leopold spent a lot of time and resources trying to chase the match with Hedwig. If this marriage happens smoothly (either if Hedwig doesn’t have an independent kingdom of her own or if she is a queen of Galicia-Volhynia as even if local nobles would have trouble with William, they have a lot less sway than Polish ones), this would allow Leopold to dedicate his full attention to Switzerland, which could potentially allow Habsburgs to win the battle of Sempach or at least not to make their defeat less disastrous. While obviously this could very well go as per OTL, if Habsburgs manage to avoid the Sempach disaster, they may be able to preserve their demesne in Switzerland and prevent or even reverse the rapid expansion of cantons in the next few decades.
Having said all that, I don’t think that Catherine surviving would impact Charles’s desire or ability to claim Hungary for himself. He still is popular in Hungary and still is viewed by many as a better king than a teenage girl. Thus, if he doesn’t marry Catherine himself (or agree to marry her to his heir Ladislaus) he almost certainly would invade Hungary at some point. But having a different queen of Hungary would lead to different circumstances (at the very least Sigismund would probably be not become involved) which may lead to assassination attempt not happening or Charles surviving it.
P. S. Sorry for my rambling. Catherine surviving does indeed lead to very interesting consequences and I wasn’t able to contain myself from listing some of the possibilities