It's both; the reason they mentioned air attack... you'll see more on later.
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
There isn't any real reason not to use wheeled recon vehicles in western Europe. The good and dense roads and their economy and speed work well. They only really do poorly is in the sort of appalling conditions of the WW1 Western Front. Overall, they're a good bargain
"You wouldn't want to do this of course, because it would be illegal using red diesel but these tractors are also really useful for road haulage. You say that you will take three?"
By this time Holt had become the Caterpillar tractor company, and was developing the D 2 diesel, tractor released for general sales in spring 1938. Contacting Caterpillar can get a decent diesel engine with a heavy duty tractor and track system attached.
OK, I have a query maybe someone can help with.
I'm trying to find the cost for the Universal carrier and the Lloyd carrier
(I'd also love to find how much the Dragon cost, but given how little data seems to be on the net, I'm not hoping too hard)
Help would be appreciated.
I'm trying to find the cost for the Universal carrier and the Lloyd carrier
(I'd also love to find how much the Dragon cost, but given how little data seems to be on the net, I'm not hoping too hard)
Help would be appreciated.
My best guess something around the armored car cost that was mentioned earlier but this is a guess . If someone could find a source or knows for some reason then please post cause im actually interested . And if someone knows what other armored car did cost it would also be good to know. I mean in the 600-1000 pound range ?
Driftless
Donor
^^^ Not directly giving unit costs, there are numerous macro-cost discussions in this lengthy thesis by Roger Salmon: Mechanizing the British Regular and Household Cavalry
That document may be known to others here, but it was a quick, and interesting, first scan for me.
That document may be known to others here, but it was a quick, and interesting, first scan for me.
I can't find anything directly at all, but this may give a rough guide, using wartime exchange rate of c$4- £1
jeep £323
lorry £425 (standard 4 wheeler)
1/2 track £2,250 (example is sdkfz7, so complex but unarmoured). And price is dodgy, after going through 2 exchange conversions).
Pz II £5,000 (ish)
Pz IV/Sherman £12,000 (ish)
So if you think of a 1/2 track as a lorry with wheels replaced by tracks, then that looks like a costly option.
But that would be comparing a cheap lorry with a costly 1/2 track.
As a simple armoured car was £900, and a simple light tank was £1200, then the carrier should be in the same range.
More than a jeep and lorry (armour + tracks), less than armoured car or tank (smaller, less armour, no gun, simpler tracks, longer production run).
Say between £600 and £900?
jeep £323
lorry £425 (standard 4 wheeler)
1/2 track £2,250 (example is sdkfz7, so complex but unarmoured). And price is dodgy, after going through 2 exchange conversions).
Pz II £5,000 (ish)
Pz IV/Sherman £12,000 (ish)
So if you think of a 1/2 track as a lorry with wheels replaced by tracks, then that looks like a costly option.
But that would be comparing a cheap lorry with a costly 1/2 track.
As a simple armoured car was £900, and a simple light tank was £1200, then the carrier should be in the same range.
More than a jeep and lorry (armour + tracks), less than armoured car or tank (smaller, less armour, no gun, simpler tracks, longer production run).
Say between £600 and £900?
Something in the range £1,000 - £1,200 seems reasonable, maybe cheaper when they get into true mass production. They did build around 26,000 Lloyds carriers OTL, after all.
They wont need so many lorries, but otoh the running costs of carriers are higher
They wont need so many lorries, but otoh the running costs of carriers are higher
Would these figures show economy of scale? Moth Pz IV and Sherman were produced en masse, over at least 5 years, so I suspect the price started much higher per unit?
I did find a figure of $3000Cd for a Canadian produced Universal carrier, so that would be around £750 at the time given the quoted exchange rate of c$4- £1
Apparently the exchange rate was about £1 to $4.5Cd, so $3000Cd would be about £650.
However, with different factories in different countries with different currencies turning them out, a guesstimate is probably the closest anyone can get.
Especially as production costs would change over time.
Also are we talking unit production cost, cost including development and overheads, price to customer?
More than a lorry (£450), less than an Armoured car (£1000) seems right.
The other 2 estimates of £650 to £750 fall in that range, so a good chance that is about right.
marathag
Banned
German Halftracks were ridiculously over engineered, even for them.
multiple needle bearing for each track pin in the track, and it was a full controlled differential, not just a truck axle like the US with snowmobile style rubber band tracks
The US White was a truck with treads replacing the wheels, the German was pretty much a tank with wheels in the front
Lloyd Carriers are unarmoured though and anything with armour plate added will be quite a bit more expensive to produce.
True, but if a light tank (depending on model) is in the £3,000 - £4,000 range, and is armoured (and a lot more complicated to make), its a not totally off cost - Lloyd has assumed mass production, as for his OTL carrier. Its mainly a ballpark to give be an idea what they'd buy pre-war
Adding about a thousand or two quid to the cost of an unarmoured carrier sounds about right for the cost of a light tank.
Mobile Division composition
25th November 1936, War Office, office of Field Marshall Deveril, CIGS.
Sir Cyril Deveril put down the report he'd been looking at to examine the officers he'd summoned to clarify some sections of it. Ellis and Martel looked back with a certain amount of trepidation - they'd both had considerable input to the report, and a bad reception would have a negative impact on their careers.
"So, gentlemen, you are in agreement?"
Ellis took the lead in answering.
"Yes Sir. There are some areas where there is still ongoing discussion on the best way to take things, but overall we think this is the best course for the development of the Army Mobile forces."
Deveril nodded, and started to read through the summary.
Proposed force structure for the Royal Tank Corps.
Given the various possible uses of an armoured force, it is our recommendation that we spilt the force into two different types. A Mobile Division, whose main objectives are to attack and exploit, and to be the core of a counterattack. Secondly an Independent Tank Brigade, whose function is to provide armoured support to an Infantry Division. Our exercises and tests over the last few years have given us a range of ways the armour can be used, and while the mentioned tasks are seen as the main ones, the RTC regiments should be trained in all their possible uses. One of the main advantages of an armoured force is its mobility and we believe training the men in the flexible use of their mobility and firepower will result in the most efficient use of them in combat.
The Mobile Division will be of a similar structure to a standard division, that is three brigades plus a supporting HQ section. After carefully considering the results of our trials and exercises, we have developed the following structure.
Each Armoured Brigade will consist of the following :
One Royal Tank Regiment organised into two battalions. Each battalion will have 48 medium tanks. In addition, the Regiment will have some few extra tanks for additional duties.
Two Infantry Battalions, mounted on the proposed new carrier. Each battalion will need 64 carriers for the infantry sections, plus some for the supporting troops and some spares. Our first estimate is 100 carriers per battalion. The battalion will have the normal composition of an infantry battalion, but will carry a larger number of radios in order to maintain its structure in fast-moving mobile operations. Tests have shown that the most efficient use of the Brigade is when the infantry and tanks are mutually supporting, and this means the infantry need a fast method of transport that is not confined to roads.
Artillery support will consist of 24 of the new 25pdr guns (when available). We propose that these are mounted on a tank chassis in a similar manner to the earlier Birch guns, to allow the artillery support to keep up with the rest of the unit.
Engineering support will be at the Brigade level. In addition to the usual supporting structure for a Brigade, they will contain additional bridging equipment, as a mobile attack is seen as needing more immediate bridging capability. For mobility and protection the engineers should be in carriers.
Some of the RASC and other supporting units will devolve to the Brigade, the rest will be held under the control of the Division HQ. This is to enable them to deal more promptly with broken down vehicles, especially with those only needing minor repairs to put back into action.
As a result of the radios used, a reinforced signals unit is recommended to handle the additional work.
As the brigade is built around the tanks, the AT units will be equipped with the 2pdr gun and be part of the Company level support. Mobility will be provided by using a carrier as the tractor. These guns are there to support the infantry in case of counterattack. We suggest they have the same establishment as an infantry force, as they are likely to be attacked by enemy tanks if these are available due to their role.
We are still considering the issue of anti-aircraft protection, for two reasons. First, there is ongoing discussion as to the appropriate level and type of this for a typical division. Second is the issue of mobility; given the armoured protection of the forward units, it is not clear how much AA support they will actually need. The proposed heavy AA gun is more intended for use defending fixed positions, its not terribly mobile. Ideally RAF air cover would mean we wouldn't need to worry, but experience has shown that there are conditions and circumstances which effect air cover, even in the absence of enemy actions, so the Division needs its own mobile air defence.
The Division HQ will be similar to a typical division. Given the nature and range of its use, we do not feel it necessary to make the heavy artillery mobile guns in the same way as the 25pdr, the usual prime movers will suffice. Similar reasoning applies to the other headquarter functions.
The final addition to the HQ will be a battalion of heavy Infantry tanks. This will consist of 32 tanks, and is intended for close support of the infantry, especially in situations where the main tank battalions are engaged in offensive action or are engaging other tank units.
In addition to the Army forces, we will also need the dedicated support of the RAF. The addition of aircraft has proven very important in exercises; not critical, but they have made the operations considerably easier. We see the need for aircraft to act in three main roles. First, a dedicated reconnaissance squadron, intended to supplement our scouting patrols. This would report directly to the Division they are supporting. Second, a close support aircraft, able to attack and disrupt enemy positions and their counterattacks. The Hawker Hart squadrons allocated in previous exercises have done a good job, but the aircraft are now obsolete. We need to discuss the nature and use of their replacements. Finally we need protection against air attack, so need fighters overhead. While the armour is less susceptible to air attack then most units, it is still a problem, particularly when moving. In any case, such a protective umbrella is certainly needed by the rest of the Divisions.
The second formation is the Independent Tank Brigade. The purpose of this unit is to support infantry either in attack or defence. Accordingly it will consist of a Regiment of 96 infantry tanks. Given the normal operation of a Division, using two brigades as the main attacking or defending force, we suggest that the Regiment is split into two battalions of 40 tanks, with a third reserve battalion of 16 tanks. Since the most efficient use of these requires a fast response to infantry needs, additional radios will be needed by the infantry units to communicate with the tanks. It has been suggested that the small carrier to be supplied to infantry units could be a useful radio platform. Other additional requirements are broadly those of the Armoured Brigade, although with less mobility as the unit will be tied to the infantry sections.
Ideally each Infantry Division would have an embedded tank brigade. It is recognised that this will not be affordable, so instead the Independent brigades would be allocated to the division in most need of their support at the time. The Brigades would be under the control of the Corps, and allocated by them. This means the units will not be as familiar with each other as we would prefer, so it is seen as essential that the infantry and tank units are trained to act together for when this happens. Otherwise the infantry will not understand how best to use the tanks allocated to them.
Sir Cyril put down the report with a sigh.
"Well, it's certainly comprehensive. Personally I am in favour of a solid Mobile division as the core of a European intervention force, and what you've described would seen to be a very solid basis." He pointed at the much thicker full report sitting on his desk. "I see you don't have any use for cavalry?"
"No Sir. After all, it's already been decided in principle to mechanise the Cavalry Regiments, and their logical use is screening and reconnaissance in support of individual divisions. When we've seen is that mechanised forces move quite a bit faster than men on foot, so those reports need to be given to the Division command as soon as possible, so having the cavalry directly reporting seems the best way of doing this. Combining them in a Cavalry Division is just too clumsy, they need to be an integrated part of the division."
"Not unreasonable, Ellis. However there is one rather large problem with this plan. The cost."
Both officers nodded. The comment was obvious, after all, as Sir Cyril continued. "Now, overall I look favourably on this. Granted there are areas that need some clarification, but overall it's a solid starting point. The problem is allocating the funds to actually implement the new Mobile Division, as well as the work we need to do to improve the rest of the Army, and completely mechanise the cavalry."
This time Martel answered. "We do realise that, Sir. One problem the RTC does have is the extremely old and limited conditions of our tanks. Exercises using them can only go so far, and we really need new, better vehicles as soon as possible so we can work with them and develop our doctrine. There are bound to be issues we only find in use, and the sooner we can identify and correct those the better. Our suggestion is that we fund, as soon as possible, an Armoured Brigade, along the lines in the report. Once that's done, we can look at building the rest of the tank force as money allows."
"I see. And how are these new tanks you want getting along?"
"That is a bit more of a problem, Sir. As the report points out, the only tanks we have immediately available to order are light tanks, and these are of extremely limited use. Ordering more of these would be a waste of money, which as you have rightly pointed out is in limited supply. However Sir John Cardine at Vickers has a new medium tank which should fill the cruiser role adequately. It's not perfect, and the initial tests raised some problems which need to be fixed. The Vickers team hopes to have it back in a couple of months with these fixed, and if they have then we could order enough for a first Regiment. Given the need to allocate training tanks, that would be about 150 tanks. Of course there are other needs, but the tanks are the most critical and take the longest to develop. We have possibilities for the Infantry tank coming along, and we are hoping to get some better Cruiser designs as well. But our situation on tanks is such we need to get some new ones now, even if they aren't perfect."
Sir Cyril thought on that for a moment.
"Very well, I'll see what can be done to make a start on getting what we need. It wont be fast or easy, but you're quite correct in needing to make a start. Leave this with me, and make sure you keep me up to date with the new tanks you're looking at."
Sir Cyril Deveril put down the report he'd been looking at to examine the officers he'd summoned to clarify some sections of it. Ellis and Martel looked back with a certain amount of trepidation - they'd both had considerable input to the report, and a bad reception would have a negative impact on their careers.
"So, gentlemen, you are in agreement?"
Ellis took the lead in answering.
"Yes Sir. There are some areas where there is still ongoing discussion on the best way to take things, but overall we think this is the best course for the development of the Army Mobile forces."
Deveril nodded, and started to read through the summary.
Proposed force structure for the Royal Tank Corps.
Given the various possible uses of an armoured force, it is our recommendation that we spilt the force into two different types. A Mobile Division, whose main objectives are to attack and exploit, and to be the core of a counterattack. Secondly an Independent Tank Brigade, whose function is to provide armoured support to an Infantry Division. Our exercises and tests over the last few years have given us a range of ways the armour can be used, and while the mentioned tasks are seen as the main ones, the RTC regiments should be trained in all their possible uses. One of the main advantages of an armoured force is its mobility and we believe training the men in the flexible use of their mobility and firepower will result in the most efficient use of them in combat.
The Mobile Division will be of a similar structure to a standard division, that is three brigades plus a supporting HQ section. After carefully considering the results of our trials and exercises, we have developed the following structure.
Each Armoured Brigade will consist of the following :
One Royal Tank Regiment organised into two battalions. Each battalion will have 48 medium tanks. In addition, the Regiment will have some few extra tanks for additional duties.
Two Infantry Battalions, mounted on the proposed new carrier. Each battalion will need 64 carriers for the infantry sections, plus some for the supporting troops and some spares. Our first estimate is 100 carriers per battalion. The battalion will have the normal composition of an infantry battalion, but will carry a larger number of radios in order to maintain its structure in fast-moving mobile operations. Tests have shown that the most efficient use of the Brigade is when the infantry and tanks are mutually supporting, and this means the infantry need a fast method of transport that is not confined to roads.
Artillery support will consist of 24 of the new 25pdr guns (when available). We propose that these are mounted on a tank chassis in a similar manner to the earlier Birch guns, to allow the artillery support to keep up with the rest of the unit.
Engineering support will be at the Brigade level. In addition to the usual supporting structure for a Brigade, they will contain additional bridging equipment, as a mobile attack is seen as needing more immediate bridging capability. For mobility and protection the engineers should be in carriers.
Some of the RASC and other supporting units will devolve to the Brigade, the rest will be held under the control of the Division HQ. This is to enable them to deal more promptly with broken down vehicles, especially with those only needing minor repairs to put back into action.
As a result of the radios used, a reinforced signals unit is recommended to handle the additional work.
As the brigade is built around the tanks, the AT units will be equipped with the 2pdr gun and be part of the Company level support. Mobility will be provided by using a carrier as the tractor. These guns are there to support the infantry in case of counterattack. We suggest they have the same establishment as an infantry force, as they are likely to be attacked by enemy tanks if these are available due to their role.
We are still considering the issue of anti-aircraft protection, for two reasons. First, there is ongoing discussion as to the appropriate level and type of this for a typical division. Second is the issue of mobility; given the armoured protection of the forward units, it is not clear how much AA support they will actually need. The proposed heavy AA gun is more intended for use defending fixed positions, its not terribly mobile. Ideally RAF air cover would mean we wouldn't need to worry, but experience has shown that there are conditions and circumstances which effect air cover, even in the absence of enemy actions, so the Division needs its own mobile air defence.
The Division HQ will be similar to a typical division. Given the nature and range of its use, we do not feel it necessary to make the heavy artillery mobile guns in the same way as the 25pdr, the usual prime movers will suffice. Similar reasoning applies to the other headquarter functions.
The final addition to the HQ will be a battalion of heavy Infantry tanks. This will consist of 32 tanks, and is intended for close support of the infantry, especially in situations where the main tank battalions are engaged in offensive action or are engaging other tank units.
In addition to the Army forces, we will also need the dedicated support of the RAF. The addition of aircraft has proven very important in exercises; not critical, but they have made the operations considerably easier. We see the need for aircraft to act in three main roles. First, a dedicated reconnaissance squadron, intended to supplement our scouting patrols. This would report directly to the Division they are supporting. Second, a close support aircraft, able to attack and disrupt enemy positions and their counterattacks. The Hawker Hart squadrons allocated in previous exercises have done a good job, but the aircraft are now obsolete. We need to discuss the nature and use of their replacements. Finally we need protection against air attack, so need fighters overhead. While the armour is less susceptible to air attack then most units, it is still a problem, particularly when moving. In any case, such a protective umbrella is certainly needed by the rest of the Divisions.
The second formation is the Independent Tank Brigade. The purpose of this unit is to support infantry either in attack or defence. Accordingly it will consist of a Regiment of 96 infantry tanks. Given the normal operation of a Division, using two brigades as the main attacking or defending force, we suggest that the Regiment is split into two battalions of 40 tanks, with a third reserve battalion of 16 tanks. Since the most efficient use of these requires a fast response to infantry needs, additional radios will be needed by the infantry units to communicate with the tanks. It has been suggested that the small carrier to be supplied to infantry units could be a useful radio platform. Other additional requirements are broadly those of the Armoured Brigade, although with less mobility as the unit will be tied to the infantry sections.
Ideally each Infantry Division would have an embedded tank brigade. It is recognised that this will not be affordable, so instead the Independent brigades would be allocated to the division in most need of their support at the time. The Brigades would be under the control of the Corps, and allocated by them. This means the units will not be as familiar with each other as we would prefer, so it is seen as essential that the infantry and tank units are trained to act together for when this happens. Otherwise the infantry will not understand how best to use the tanks allocated to them.
Sir Cyril put down the report with a sigh.
"Well, it's certainly comprehensive. Personally I am in favour of a solid Mobile division as the core of a European intervention force, and what you've described would seen to be a very solid basis." He pointed at the much thicker full report sitting on his desk. "I see you don't have any use for cavalry?"
"No Sir. After all, it's already been decided in principle to mechanise the Cavalry Regiments, and their logical use is screening and reconnaissance in support of individual divisions. When we've seen is that mechanised forces move quite a bit faster than men on foot, so those reports need to be given to the Division command as soon as possible, so having the cavalry directly reporting seems the best way of doing this. Combining them in a Cavalry Division is just too clumsy, they need to be an integrated part of the division."
"Not unreasonable, Ellis. However there is one rather large problem with this plan. The cost."
Both officers nodded. The comment was obvious, after all, as Sir Cyril continued. "Now, overall I look favourably on this. Granted there are areas that need some clarification, but overall it's a solid starting point. The problem is allocating the funds to actually implement the new Mobile Division, as well as the work we need to do to improve the rest of the Army, and completely mechanise the cavalry."
This time Martel answered. "We do realise that, Sir. One problem the RTC does have is the extremely old and limited conditions of our tanks. Exercises using them can only go so far, and we really need new, better vehicles as soon as possible so we can work with them and develop our doctrine. There are bound to be issues we only find in use, and the sooner we can identify and correct those the better. Our suggestion is that we fund, as soon as possible, an Armoured Brigade, along the lines in the report. Once that's done, we can look at building the rest of the tank force as money allows."
"I see. And how are these new tanks you want getting along?"
"That is a bit more of a problem, Sir. As the report points out, the only tanks we have immediately available to order are light tanks, and these are of extremely limited use. Ordering more of these would be a waste of money, which as you have rightly pointed out is in limited supply. However Sir John Cardine at Vickers has a new medium tank which should fill the cruiser role adequately. It's not perfect, and the initial tests raised some problems which need to be fixed. The Vickers team hopes to have it back in a couple of months with these fixed, and if they have then we could order enough for a first Regiment. Given the need to allocate training tanks, that would be about 150 tanks. Of course there are other needs, but the tanks are the most critical and take the longest to develop. We have possibilities for the Infantry tank coming along, and we are hoping to get some better Cruiser designs as well. But our situation on tanks is such we need to get some new ones now, even if they aren't perfect."
Sir Cyril thought on that for a moment.
"Very well, I'll see what can be done to make a start on getting what we need. It wont be fast or easy, but you're quite correct in needing to make a start. Leave this with me, and make sure you keep me up to date with the new tanks you're looking at."
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