The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
Driftless
Donor
The Duquense should be able to pound the Emden (provided they make contact) - as long as they don't have to fight off the Luftwaffe too. The 1940 MN Duquense maybe was a bit light on AA weaponry - just like every other comparable ship of the period
The RN had by far the heaviest AA fits in 1940, and they were still far too light on many ships.
Splitting the force actually is a poor decision, but after France the KM is under a lot of pressure to DO SOMETHING! So risks that might have been better not taken are being
nbcman
Donor
The words of a gambler that is holding a losing hand who keeps on raising the stakes instead of cutting their losses and pushing away from the table...
First, welcome back Astrodragon! Your updates have been missed.
Just a context question as I continue to try to educate myself from those who know much more than I do....
In addition to the Naval units identified, at this time approximately how many UK submarines and maritime patrol aircraft would be operating in the North Sea? And as a follow-up, in OTL how effective were they in interdicting German Naval Forces?
Thanks so much!
Just a context question as I continue to try to educate myself from those who know much more than I do....
In addition to the Naval units identified, at this time approximately how many UK submarines and maritime patrol aircraft would be operating in the North Sea? And as a follow-up, in OTL how effective were they in interdicting German Naval Forces?
Thanks so much!
To be fair even then the RN knew it needed more AA dakka for its ships but it took a long time to get this fixed and the fact that the RN was rapidly expanding didn't exactly help much given the limits in short and medium AA gun, gun mount, and fire control production let alone the fact that UK yards were overworked for the whole war so getting the yard time just to add more AA was hard to do. Not to mention the fact that a lot of RN design had relatively limited growth margins for extra top weight and crew numbers
Hmm. Yes, definitely subs, although most are in the south, hoping to catch a supply ship heading to Oslo. Further north, likely hanging hopefully around the ports the KM is using. There really arent enough Germans ships around to patrol the Norwegian Sea.
Norwegian Sea 3
Norwegian Sea, 1700
One of the swordfish had lingered in sight of the cruisers, but made a rapid retreat when the observer saw a flight of German fighters approaching from the south-east. The pilot had hoped to keep the flotilla under observation until it additional scouts or another torpedo attack could be made, but with fighters around, and the weather good with few clouds, discretion was the best course of action.
The crew of HMS Ark Royal had been sending off flights of three planes to act as scouts. While the current position of the cruiser force was now known, they still had not located the far more dangerous battlecruiser squadron. Until they did, Admiral Wells was assuming that they were likely to either the south or west of him, and intended to keep HMS Valiant close by - she was the only heavy ship in the British force who could reasonably fight the twins. The situation was made more complicated by the fact that the cruisers now seemed to be under cover of the Luftwaffe, which would make a strike a much more hazardous proposition. There was also the problem of the time - it was already 1700, and given the need to locate the enemy, then arrange a substantial escorted attack, and allow the planes to be recovered in daylight, the chance of another aerial attack today was fast vanishing.
However while the immediate situation was unfortunate, the Royal Navy would soon be reinforced. Admiral Forbes was currently aboard HMS Nelson, who would join the squadron the next day, and HMS Warspite and her escorts was closing from the south west. All merchant ships were either heading for the safety of the British coast, or heading for Narvik.That limited the options of the German battlecruisers, there wasn't much vulnerable shipping left in the immediate area, and the RAF were operating out of Narvik to cover the possibility the fast battlecruisers would break through to attack the port. Forbes considered this unlikely, as this would allow him to position his ships to block their retreat, and with three capital ships available the odds would be poor for the Germans. The immediate problem was the cruisers.
Vice Admiral Godfroy's communications officer had been kept busy feeding him reports of the results of the FAA's attack, and assuming the positions given were accurate, he would be in a position to engage them in a few hours. The final report of the swordfish, before it had been forced to retreat, indicated that at least part of the force seemed to be heading north again, so he would adjust his squadrons course to intercept. Whether this would be part or all of the force wasn't known; the swordfish had reported hits on one of the cruisers, but she hadn't appeared to be in major difficulty, so he assumed she was only damaged. Nevertheless, his intention was to find and attack them, and a northerly course was his best option - if the Germans retreated south to Trondheim, it would be much more difficult given the air support the Luftwaffe would provide.
Norwegian Sea, 1930
The French squadron made contact with the Emden and her destroyer escort shortly after 1915 that evening, the German force steering east of north. Godfroy was pleased - he had gambled on the course the Germans would take, and it had paid off. Now he would be able to start to pay back the bill owed for the Nazi attack on France. Once the German ships were identified, he was more certain of a decisive result. The larger ship was identified as the Emden, and she was relatively slow for a cruiser, his ships had a five knot advantage, and he intended to make full use of it to close and destroy the ships.
KptzS Lange realised his position once the enemy force was identified as cruisers and destroyers. It hadn't been immediately certain, the cruisers didn't seem to be one of the Royal Navy ships known to be in the area, but the size difference between the two larger ships and their escorts made it obvious they were cruisers, and not small ones. He obviously couldn't expect a successful result against them with hi s light cruiser and a single destroyer, so came about, hoping that he might be able to eitherc evade them or pull them onto the Hipper or the Stukas of the Luftwaffe. His radio message for air support was received, but given the use of planes to cover the Hipper, he was not expecting anything to arrive for the next hour. Until then, he had to do his best to avoid action.
With the earlier location of the German ships, and Godfroy's anticipation of their course, the French were in a good position to cut the Emden off from escape, and the speed advantage they had over her meant she had no hope of running away from them. The long days at this latitude in June meant that while the best firing conditions of the day were past, there was no real danger of losing her ion the darkness for some time. At just before 2000, the four forward 8" guns of the duQuesne opened fire, soon followed by the Suffren.
The Emden was handled well, and it took quite a few salvoes before the French cruisers made the first hit on her, as she twisted and turned under the partial cover of her own smoke. Like most German ships, the Emden was strongly built, and the first three hits didn't seem to do serious damage to her, but her evasive action meant that the French cruisers could close more quickly, and once they felt able to turn and open their aft firing arcs, the Emden's fate was sealed. The next salvo struck her hard, at least two 8" shells plunging into her machinery space, and the fleeing ship slowed noticeably. From then on, it was only a matter of time before the French cruisers hammered her into a flaming wreck.
The destroyer Karl Glaster, who had been in company with the Emden tried to get between the Emden and the French cruisers, making smoke in an attempt to allow her to break free of the trap, but the French had three large destroyers of their own, and the moved to intercept and engage the ship. Despite the disparity in force, the German destroyer managed to get off a torpedo attack, but the French destroyers had made a close approach impossible, and the torpedoes vanished into the cold waters of the Norwegian Sea. The French destroyers made a torpedo attack of their own, and the Karl Glaster was hit amidships, which caused her stern to break off, the ship sinking quickly. With the well-served guns of his cruisers rapidly finishing off Emden, Admiral Godfroy ordered them to pick up the survivors. Half an hour later, all the remained of the German force was two large oil slicks and men struggling to survive in the water until the French ships picked them up.
The final act was the belated arrival of the Luftwaffe, a dozen Stuka's with fighter escort arriving too late to save the Emden, With freedom to manoeuvre, only one hit was made on the Suffren, and while this caused damage to one of her engine rooms, the growing darkness meant that the shipn had time to recover. Both cruisers had recieved hits from the Emden's 6" guns, but Godfroy reported to Admiral Fraser that there was no significant damage, and that his ships were still ready to fight. The most unfortunate part of the Luftwaffe intervention was that it interrupted the rescue of survivors - by the time it was done, the French ships were scattered and it was getting too dark to see many of the men struggling to survive.
One of the swordfish had lingered in sight of the cruisers, but made a rapid retreat when the observer saw a flight of German fighters approaching from the south-east. The pilot had hoped to keep the flotilla under observation until it additional scouts or another torpedo attack could be made, but with fighters around, and the weather good with few clouds, discretion was the best course of action.
The crew of HMS Ark Royal had been sending off flights of three planes to act as scouts. While the current position of the cruiser force was now known, they still had not located the far more dangerous battlecruiser squadron. Until they did, Admiral Wells was assuming that they were likely to either the south or west of him, and intended to keep HMS Valiant close by - she was the only heavy ship in the British force who could reasonably fight the twins. The situation was made more complicated by the fact that the cruisers now seemed to be under cover of the Luftwaffe, which would make a strike a much more hazardous proposition. There was also the problem of the time - it was already 1700, and given the need to locate the enemy, then arrange a substantial escorted attack, and allow the planes to be recovered in daylight, the chance of another aerial attack today was fast vanishing.
However while the immediate situation was unfortunate, the Royal Navy would soon be reinforced. Admiral Forbes was currently aboard HMS Nelson, who would join the squadron the next day, and HMS Warspite and her escorts was closing from the south west. All merchant ships were either heading for the safety of the British coast, or heading for Narvik.That limited the options of the German battlecruisers, there wasn't much vulnerable shipping left in the immediate area, and the RAF were operating out of Narvik to cover the possibility the fast battlecruisers would break through to attack the port. Forbes considered this unlikely, as this would allow him to position his ships to block their retreat, and with three capital ships available the odds would be poor for the Germans. The immediate problem was the cruisers.
Vice Admiral Godfroy's communications officer had been kept busy feeding him reports of the results of the FAA's attack, and assuming the positions given were accurate, he would be in a position to engage them in a few hours. The final report of the swordfish, before it had been forced to retreat, indicated that at least part of the force seemed to be heading north again, so he would adjust his squadrons course to intercept. Whether this would be part or all of the force wasn't known; the swordfish had reported hits on one of the cruisers, but she hadn't appeared to be in major difficulty, so he assumed she was only damaged. Nevertheless, his intention was to find and attack them, and a northerly course was his best option - if the Germans retreated south to Trondheim, it would be much more difficult given the air support the Luftwaffe would provide.
Norwegian Sea, 1930
The French squadron made contact with the Emden and her destroyer escort shortly after 1915 that evening, the German force steering east of north. Godfroy was pleased - he had gambled on the course the Germans would take, and it had paid off. Now he would be able to start to pay back the bill owed for the Nazi attack on France. Once the German ships were identified, he was more certain of a decisive result. The larger ship was identified as the Emden, and she was relatively slow for a cruiser, his ships had a five knot advantage, and he intended to make full use of it to close and destroy the ships.
KptzS Lange realised his position once the enemy force was identified as cruisers and destroyers. It hadn't been immediately certain, the cruisers didn't seem to be one of the Royal Navy ships known to be in the area, but the size difference between the two larger ships and their escorts made it obvious they were cruisers, and not small ones. He obviously couldn't expect a successful result against them with hi s light cruiser and a single destroyer, so came about, hoping that he might be able to eitherc evade them or pull them onto the Hipper or the Stukas of the Luftwaffe. His radio message for air support was received, but given the use of planes to cover the Hipper, he was not expecting anything to arrive for the next hour. Until then, he had to do his best to avoid action.
With the earlier location of the German ships, and Godfroy's anticipation of their course, the French were in a good position to cut the Emden off from escape, and the speed advantage they had over her meant she had no hope of running away from them. The long days at this latitude in June meant that while the best firing conditions of the day were past, there was no real danger of losing her ion the darkness for some time. At just before 2000, the four forward 8" guns of the duQuesne opened fire, soon followed by the Suffren.
The Emden was handled well, and it took quite a few salvoes before the French cruisers made the first hit on her, as she twisted and turned under the partial cover of her own smoke. Like most German ships, the Emden was strongly built, and the first three hits didn't seem to do serious damage to her, but her evasive action meant that the French cruisers could close more quickly, and once they felt able to turn and open their aft firing arcs, the Emden's fate was sealed. The next salvo struck her hard, at least two 8" shells plunging into her machinery space, and the fleeing ship slowed noticeably. From then on, it was only a matter of time before the French cruisers hammered her into a flaming wreck.
The destroyer Karl Glaster, who had been in company with the Emden tried to get between the Emden and the French cruisers, making smoke in an attempt to allow her to break free of the trap, but the French had three large destroyers of their own, and the moved to intercept and engage the ship. Despite the disparity in force, the German destroyer managed to get off a torpedo attack, but the French destroyers had made a close approach impossible, and the torpedoes vanished into the cold waters of the Norwegian Sea. The French destroyers made a torpedo attack of their own, and the Karl Glaster was hit amidships, which caused her stern to break off, the ship sinking quickly. With the well-served guns of his cruisers rapidly finishing off Emden, Admiral Godfroy ordered them to pick up the survivors. Half an hour later, all the remained of the German force was two large oil slicks and men struggling to survive in the water until the French ships picked them up.
The final act was the belated arrival of the Luftwaffe, a dozen Stuka's with fighter escort arriving too late to save the Emden, With freedom to manoeuvre, only one hit was made on the Suffren, and while this caused damage to one of her engine rooms, the growing darkness meant that the shipn had time to recover. Both cruisers had recieved hits from the Emden's 6" guns, but Godfroy reported to Admiral Fraser that there was no significant damage, and that his ships were still ready to fight. The most unfortunate part of the Luftwaffe intervention was that it interrupted the rescue of survivors - by the time it was done, the French ships were scattered and it was getting too dark to see many of the men struggling to survive.
I'm guessing that it's less about the love of the suicide mission and more about the Fuhrer screaming that he'll scrap the fleet if it doesn't "do something."
Hitler never had a good understanding of sea operations you see it in the way he went about things in that theater.
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Well of course it was intended to be a raid.
Sadly doing a raid into the area the RN is occupying in some force tends to be rather suicidal.