Nah. Plenty of tank action options available there. It is the current location of the German's true heavy tanks.Are you people suggesting I'd have a battle in Norway just so I can do some naval action?
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
Nah. Plenty of tank action options available there. It is the current location of the German's true heavy tanks.
Neubaufahrzeug - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Some of them are even made of armour plate (in a whopping 10 - 20 mm) and not mild steel.
I was thinking the battle would last another day or two and a panzer divison would have to sacrifice itself to stop the brits and that would trigger a withdrawal but i forgot that the german high command was actually very good especially compared to the french currently altough things will change hopefully since apparently astro has sacked gamelin for bilotte wich seems like a great idea. Altough the question remains who will command army group 1 instead of him ? My suggestion is gort to get brooke to the army command and montgomery to corp command early?
And if you dont want the 1st army group to be to big , you can cleave the 2nd army and whatever you will call the reinforcements that are arriving to help them and you could also take away the remants of the 9th army altough 2nd DCR might be useful further north with the as reinforcements to the cavarly corps maybe ?
I still thank the mentioned 150 reserve tanks before the battle by the brits should be formed up into a brigade and sent to france and you can send like 30-40 of those as replacements for first armored i guess . There is also the 2nd armored divison wich is supposed to be deployed to france in june i think aswell or i might wrong here.
Since the disaster is averted , maybe send the 1st armored brigade to antwerp to defend against the oncoming 10th panzer divison since the BEF itself is tank free more or less wich isnt ideal at all .
Maybe redeploy the panzers toward the gemboulux gap while cannibilizing a divison or two to get the rest up to strenght and attack there is my thought while maybe leaving a divison and a infantry army on french side of the meuse so you dont have assault cross it again by them . You could also send a infantry army north aswell and the 2 panzer divisons that are in the gap could be sent further north to murder the belgians wich are the weak link to be honest .
Basicly attack in the north with 3 rejiggered divisons from the sickle cut attacking through the cap and the three original panzer divison attacking north around antwerp or near the coast against the belgians is the best plan i can come up with for the germans. With the main effort being against the belgians seems to me to be the best plan against the allies for the germans.
And if you dont want the 1st army group to be to big , you can cleave the 2nd army and whatever you will call the reinforcements that are arriving to help them and you could also take away the remants of the 9th army altough 2nd DCR might be useful further north with the as reinforcements to the cavarly corps maybe ?
I still thank the mentioned 150 reserve tanks before the battle by the brits should be formed up into a brigade and sent to france and you can send like 30-40 of those as replacements for first armored i guess . There is also the 2nd armored divison wich is supposed to be deployed to france in june i think aswell or i might wrong here.
Since the disaster is averted , maybe send the 1st armored brigade to antwerp to defend against the oncoming 10th panzer divison since the BEF itself is tank free more or less wich isnt ideal at all .
Maybe redeploy the panzers toward the gemboulux gap while cannibilizing a divison or two to get the rest up to strenght and attack there is my thought while maybe leaving a divison and a infantry army on french side of the meuse so you dont have assault cross it again by them . You could also send a infantry army north aswell and the 2 panzer divisons that are in the gap could be sent further north to murder the belgians wich are the weak link to be honest .
Basicly attack in the north with 3 rejiggered divisons from the sickle cut attacking through the cap and the three original panzer divison attacking north around antwerp or near the coast against the belgians is the best plan i can come up with for the germans. With the main effort being against the belgians seems to me to be the best plan against the allies for the germans.
So again for those that know much more than I do....
Can anyone elaborate on how the French command and control system worked in 1940?
While looking at the map and reading Astrodragon's fine storyline, I always envisioned that the key hurdle in the French system was the dependence of large units like Divisions upon central HQ to either "move" or "attack". Such that Division Commanders did not have independent authority to make such commitments on their own. In OTL, the impact was that by the time that the French HQ ordered Divisions to close the gap from the Ardennes, the Germans were already pushing towards Calais and the battle was lost.
In this timeline, if that is accurate and Division Commanders did require HQ for approval to move or attack it would completely explain why the two French Armoured Units didn't crash down on the escape route, unless they were within visual range to see the Germans themselves and assess the opportunity.
Where I am far less clear is the freedom of action Division Commanders would have had once positioned in their assigned areas of responsibility. In my uneducated mind, I always envisioned that one of the key objectives of training and drilling was to be able to arrive at a location assigned to the Division, at which point sub-units would immediately be broken off and positioned in their areas of responsibility, with Division HQ ensuring first that their sub-units deployed where they were directed, and then at intervals begin to do the rounds to review each of those sub-units and the progress they were making to fortify their positions. Sub-unit commanders would be responsible for positioning defensive works including mine fields, machine gun nests, anti-tank gun positions, mortar positions, reserve locations, etc. Division Command would retain responsibility for Artillery Positions and Artillery Spotters (who would run their own communication lines) and potentially supporting tank units. My potentially erroneous assumption being that a Division would have trained to a level where they would be fully capable of reliably having basic defenses dug-in and artillery spotters wired within 6-12 hours, with full entrenchment potentially taking a couple of days.
Back to the communication issue, after digging in, intra-division communication would be fine. It was the inter-division communication to neighbouring units and HQ that could still be a problem. Although once settled, as long as not encircled, I don't see any reason why telephone lines would not be working, or motorcycle couriers unable to operate with significant freedom of movement.
But key assumption being that if the emplaced Division was attacked, that need for external communication was very much a secondary issue and while in contact a French Division could viciously defend themselves in their area of operation with the combined arms in the unit.
Hoping someone may be able to elaborate and provide corrections to my assumptions as necessary.
Many thanks again gents, M.
Can anyone elaborate on how the French command and control system worked in 1940?
While looking at the map and reading Astrodragon's fine storyline, I always envisioned that the key hurdle in the French system was the dependence of large units like Divisions upon central HQ to either "move" or "attack". Such that Division Commanders did not have independent authority to make such commitments on their own. In OTL, the impact was that by the time that the French HQ ordered Divisions to close the gap from the Ardennes, the Germans were already pushing towards Calais and the battle was lost.
In this timeline, if that is accurate and Division Commanders did require HQ for approval to move or attack it would completely explain why the two French Armoured Units didn't crash down on the escape route, unless they were within visual range to see the Germans themselves and assess the opportunity.
Where I am far less clear is the freedom of action Division Commanders would have had once positioned in their assigned areas of responsibility. In my uneducated mind, I always envisioned that one of the key objectives of training and drilling was to be able to arrive at a location assigned to the Division, at which point sub-units would immediately be broken off and positioned in their areas of responsibility, with Division HQ ensuring first that their sub-units deployed where they were directed, and then at intervals begin to do the rounds to review each of those sub-units and the progress they were making to fortify their positions. Sub-unit commanders would be responsible for positioning defensive works including mine fields, machine gun nests, anti-tank gun positions, mortar positions, reserve locations, etc. Division Command would retain responsibility for Artillery Positions and Artillery Spotters (who would run their own communication lines) and potentially supporting tank units. My potentially erroneous assumption being that a Division would have trained to a level where they would be fully capable of reliably having basic defenses dug-in and artillery spotters wired within 6-12 hours, with full entrenchment potentially taking a couple of days.
Back to the communication issue, after digging in, intra-division communication would be fine. It was the inter-division communication to neighbouring units and HQ that could still be a problem. Although once settled, as long as not encircled, I don't see any reason why telephone lines would not be working, or motorcycle couriers unable to operate with significant freedom of movement.
But key assumption being that if the emplaced Division was attacked, that need for external communication was very much a secondary issue and while in contact a French Division could viciously defend themselves in their area of operation with the combined arms in the unit.
Hoping someone may be able to elaborate and provide corrections to my assumptions as necessary.
Many thanks again gents, M.
My understanding of the French structure is that it was very top-down.
So if a division was ordered to stay in place, it would do so unless circumstances forced a change.
Hence divisions sitting idle due to Huntzigers inability to respond, and time wasted with Gamelins very slow communications.
That hasn't really changed.
With Huntziger gone, things are much more pro-active in the 2nd Army area.
And sending 7th Army was basically telling the reserve to go and do what it was there for. The reserve is always going to be a bit more flexible on arrival, as you dont know beforehand what the situation will actually be. Then Billotte gave him the power to co-opt anything he found useful when he got there.
So if a division was ordered to stay in place, it would do so unless circumstances forced a change.
Hence divisions sitting idle due to Huntzigers inability to respond, and time wasted with Gamelins very slow communications.
That hasn't really changed.
With Huntziger gone, things are much more pro-active in the 2nd Army area.
And sending 7th Army was basically telling the reserve to go and do what it was there for. The reserve is always going to be a bit more flexible on arrival, as you dont know beforehand what the situation will actually be. Then Billotte gave him the power to co-opt anything he found useful when he got there.
17 May Map
Promised you a map. This is roughly at the beginning of the 18th May
There are some French units just off the bottom, the only one that will be heading north is a Corps under Touchon.
The German line isn't as strong as it looks. The Panzers are mainly falling back (with a few not-so-badly-hit units held as a reserve), and the infantry divisions have had to fight to get to where they are now. There are more infantry divisions following.
A couple of French divisions that had been hit hard (61st and 102nd) are basically taking prisoners back.
Most of the units are busy getting themselves back together after a heavy days fighting (at least in the centre).
1st Armoured is being held as the counterattack force. 1DLM got hit hard by the panzers, but is also available if needed.
There are some French units just off the bottom, the only one that will be heading north is a Corps under Touchon.
The German line isn't as strong as it looks. The Panzers are mainly falling back (with a few not-so-badly-hit units held as a reserve), and the infantry divisions have had to fight to get to where they are now. There are more infantry divisions following.
A couple of French divisions that had been hit hard (61st and 102nd) are basically taking prisoners back.
Most of the units are busy getting themselves back together after a heavy days fighting (at least in the centre).
1st Armoured is being held as the counterattack force. 1DLM got hit hard by the panzers, but is also available if needed.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Well the Germans aren't going anywhere at Sedan.
And it will take them 4-5 days minimum to redeploy to an open flank (Gembloux?)
I'm calling it that the French won't be pushed back further than the Somme and even then that's only assuming some heroic efforts by the Panzers and the Luftwaffe.
With the front stabilising the incentive for Churchill to release more of the home defence fighter squadrons will strengthen. And hopefully the AdA will do something better too.
And it will take them 4-5 days minimum to redeploy to an open flank (Gembloux?)
I'm calling it that the French won't be pushed back further than the Somme and even then that's only assuming some heroic efforts by the Panzers and the Luftwaffe.
With the front stabilising the incentive for Churchill to release more of the home defence fighter squadrons will strengthen. And hopefully the AdA will do something better too.
The Germans have a number of options available to use the infantry divisions they still have a sufficiency in.
They can try to cross the Meuse again. That should be doable, but the problem is with the Panzers battered exploitation will be slow (and plays into the French Armies pre-war playbook)
They can cross the Meuse and hope the French Army batters itself to death against their beachead.
They can push through the Gembloux gap
They can take and push past Antwerp, either rolling up the Belgian army, or taking the coast, or both. That would in theory allow the Luftwaffe to bomb Britain more efficiently.
They can finish off Holland
Or variations and combinations of the above.
They actually do still have a good range of options, just not the one they had in OTL (a very quick exploitation by Guderian through the Sedan area)
It's by no means over in France yet (and of course there is always the issue of French politics...)
They can try to cross the Meuse again. That should be doable, but the problem is with the Panzers battered exploitation will be slow (and plays into the French Armies pre-war playbook)
They can cross the Meuse and hope the French Army batters itself to death against their beachead.
They can push through the Gembloux gap
They can take and push past Antwerp, either rolling up the Belgian army, or taking the coast, or both. That would in theory allow the Luftwaffe to bomb Britain more efficiently.
They can finish off Holland
Or variations and combinations of the above.
They actually do still have a good range of options, just not the one they had in OTL (a very quick exploitation by Guderian through the Sedan area)
It's by no means over in France yet (and of course there is always the issue of French politics...)
Yes the reserve is roughly the same as training vehicles and kit under factory repair rather than an available material reserve. In terms of production the OTL numbers will be wrong. The Germans demobbed factory workers very quickly after the BoF and started to change models. But in terms of production 0 P1 per month, around 30 P2 30 P38t, 60-80 P3, 20-30 PIV and 10-20 Stug and 30 armoured cars. One issue for the Germans is whether they switch to 5cm guns for the P3 which will reduce the numbers produced.
And between 1-2000 trucks per month. So if a PZ division has lost its soft vehicles its a months production to remotorise it or you end up demotorizing other things and have to replace that transport with horses - which are useful in agriculture or porters.
Second issue available for use. A lot of vehicles will have some form of damage and amongst the items being lost will be the truck borne repair units ( also signallers, medics, artillery specialists who won't be with the panzers and are not equipped to fight past the inevitable unsuppressed machine gun). But without the repair units lightly damaged equipment will be unavailable, Simple things like are code machines and code books destroyed? because they have to be reissued, and maybe men trained, the kit from the bridging units replaced and all the while men fed and ammo supplied.
Not to mention the loss of trained infantry and their kit.
But the general situation after a week of the war and 3 days of intense fighting - its difficult to criticise French reaction time given its 3 days and you really only know what's going on half way through day 1 of the major offensive
But the end result is of the 10 available Pz Div 6 are combat ineffective for some time. There may be working tanks but not so much the Arty, infantry, support arms, 1 is understrength to begin with and 2 are recovering from meeting the Cavalry Corps. The Motorised infantry are not much better off, they have been frontally assaulting entrenched French infantry and if you go ahead regardless of casualties you will be losing a lot of junior leaders. Overall not high losses but in the specific units engaged probably debilitating. OTL GD regiment had 25% casualties in the fighting around the Meuse Heights 15-17 May. Thats likely to be a minimum for the attacking units for 2-3 days fighting if they are pressing the attack.
The highest daily rates for the campaign were around 4000 per day but most of the German divisions were barely engaged average 1000 casualties for the whole campaign. So if we call the OTL campaign one month the absolute minimum would be around 30k KIA 100k WIA ( of which about half you get back in three months) and probably much higher, say 10k MIA. Which are comparable to July 41 in Barbarossa which is the most intense of the initial campaign. Of which 80-90 % would be in the infantry.
As to what the Allies will know, immediately not much but POW debrief is a thing and the will eventually get a good picture of the German system but not tomorrow and maybe not next month so the allies are unlikely to switch over to major offensive action right away because they don't know how thin the German reserve is and they do know what their production rates are so with another 3 months production the British will have another army in the field, no materiel losses from Dunkirk to replace its all new issue. The French will have replaced their older tank inventory and so forth. Smashing the Meuse Bridgehead or the relief of Fortress Holland is another matter, but smashing really means getting into artillery range. For the Germans that includes battleships bombarding the Dutch Coast.
The other factor is the panzerwaffe as a maneuver element has failed. It cant just refuel and charge again in the morning, and by evening the French will be closing the gaps, digging deeper, laying mines and so forth. By the next day other divisions will have entered the line and the battered formations be reorganised. By the time the the panzers are ready the allies will be dug in wired in and you can't go around you have to go through what you need is a Breakthrough tank which fortunately the Germans are working on be ready by 42 at the outside.
Luftwaffe position is far worse. Either the allies have free rein over the battlefield or you have to fly - and Essen is 150 miles from Antwerp which the allies hold and there is no reason for the main allied forces to have withdrawn from Brussels. Thats a reaction to the OTL Offensive now the Dyle line is holding, so Leopold has no reason to go surrendery negotiate for free stuff and food for his army and population yes. The Ruhr is in range of fighter cover from Belgian airfields and most of German production in range of unescorted bombers from France.
Division commanders in all the Allied armies have more limited freedom than you might imagine compared to the German. Because they are using Corps assets. The French OTL slightly less so than the British but I suspect thats a function of the advance to the Dyle line and putting the Corps HQ forward with motorised elements so they can plan the defence. The BEF 1 corps for example has 3 MG Bn ( plus 3 more from GHQ plus GHQ engineer bn) CCRA with 2 field 2 medium 2 light AA regiments, CCMA ( medium atillery) with 2 field, 3 medium, 1 heavy 1 super heavy regiments a separate survey regiment and corps assets for troop transport, ammo columns in addition to the divisional equivalents.
The Div commander may be the planner for an action in his sector which may be the corps main attack but they are far less autonomous than the German equivalent but do have access to more firepower. If you want a picture look at the 100 days at the end of WW1 or Alamein, Mareth Line, Diadem, Normandy and so forth. One division - backed by Corps assets attacks draws in german reserves, Stops after a fairly short time, new division attacks on a slighty different axis using the same corps assets more reserves sucked in Another corps does the same with its divisions, The First corps repeats Another army chimes in etc. So for example the Canadian Corps in the 100 days fights over those 95 days the battles of Scarpe, Albert, 2nd Bapaume, Arras Drocourt canal, Havrincourt, Epehey, Canal du Nord, 5th Ypres, Sr Quinten Canal, Cambrai Coutrai, Selle Valenciennes capture of Mons Sambre Passage of the Grand Honelle. or one distinct action every 5 days. You get the same thing in 44 - plus XXX corps.
The Other part of the picture is the failure of the German army to do anything like this, they go around or specifically try ( and normally fail) to break through after extensive preparation. The highest casualty days mentioned above were both during Fall Rot, With the Exception of Sedan the French don't break disintegrate, fall apart or otherwise panic much at all.
Given the Belgian Army is a great deal more shook up and isn’t as well equipped as the French or the British I’d expect the Germans to try and roll over them.
Gembloux by that point is not an open flank. The 1st Army is well dug in and there is an armoured force that is more powerful than the 3rd, 4th and 9th panzers. Adding the 9th Panzer is a bit generous, as they are not in Central Belgium but in Antwerp, They are trying their lack against forts, a completed KW line, flooded areas, 6 very good Active Belgians divisions, 6 good First Reserve divisions and 5 "poor to fair" Second Reserve divisions. Added to that there are 3 very divisions of the 7th Army. In total, around Antwerp and down north of Leuven, there are 20 infantry divisions, 15 of which either good or excellent.
Deep Defences, Belgian Fortifications, May 1940
www.niehorster.org
Each Active and First Reserve belgian division is better equipped with antitank guns compared to their german counterparts. Additionally, the Active and Frist Reserve divisions were equipped with T-13 destroyers, around 300 in total.
Overall, the Antwerp-Leuven positition behind the KW Line is a very tough nut to crack. It has a greater concentration of well-equipped good infantry than any other sector of the front.
Then we got the Leuven-Wavre position, with a dug in BEF. A BEF that is better equipped compared to OTL since they have a full complement of 2pdr and 3pdr antitank guns (no need for borrowed 25mm guns). A BEF that had time to lay mines and dig deep and achieve good concentration over a narrow front.
Then it is the dug in 1st Army. The army who had crack divisions and had laid antitank minefields by the 15th of May. By that point the minefields will be denser and the troops even better dug in. And they have as mentioned the powerful armoured reserve as previously mentioned.
Then you got the clusterfuck of the Ardennes front where resupply is difficult.
So, the Germans have to advance against an enemy with superior artillery, superior armoured force, dug in, using internal lines of resupply. All of that while having their armoured fist mauled. At the same time, allied reinforcements are in their way. The mountain troops from the Alps and colonial troops. These include the 6th and 7th DINA, the 84th and 85th DIA, the 27th, 28th, 29th, 30th and 31st DIAlp.This is the equivalent of another army. And of course more reinforcements from Maginot.
There cannot be an equivalent Case Red. In Case Red the Allies had lost already the Belgian Army, the BEF and the 1st, 7th and 9th french Armies. All the french armoured formations were destroyed with limited cadre left with the exception of the 4th DCR and part of the 3rd DCR.
The Germans cannot win a set piece battle with basically intact Allies who are now superior in every metric of land armies that exist.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Even taking Belgium and Holland and pushing the French and British back into NE France (which would be a major success in the context of any other timeline than OTL) means that the Germans cannot even think about backstabbing the Soviets.
Italy might be brave / stupid enough to join in - they won't get very far and with the Germans still engaged in France they will most likely be cleared out of North Africa and bogged down in Greece if they do.
Bombing England is a fine theory but if the Germans are held at the line of the Somme or further back then there are plenty of targerts left in France to hit first.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Open in the sense of not having a river line to cross - least worse option but one that the Allies can see coming from miles away.
The main aim of the Allies right now is to carry on with reinforcing their defence. That was, after all, their aim. Hold a good defensive line, let the Germans batter themselves against it and wear themselves out, then in 1941 attack with a heavy material superiority.
Now there are issues with this (and some assumptions they made/are making are wrong), but so far, apart from a serious scare at Sedan, its not gone too far wrong. So they aren't suddenly going to decide to motor to Berlin.
Now there are issues with this (and some assumptions they made/are making are wrong), but so far, apart from a serious scare at Sedan, its not gone too far wrong. So they aren't suddenly going to decide to motor to Berlin.
At the moment (and forgetting our knowledge of OTL), the germans are doing rather well.
Even by Sedan, while the Panzers got mauled, as far as they know they tied up and mauled the Allied reserve, so its not available if they can hit somewhere else.
The Dyle isn't in the same class as the Meuse as a barrier, apparently in places its not much of a river at all.
Italy - ah yes, Benny. A lot of that decision is going to depend on how well the Germans SEEM to be doing when he has to make the fateful decision, and probably also involves how the French presence in NA is seen.
Even by Sedan, while the Panzers got mauled, as far as they know they tied up and mauled the Allied reserve, so its not available if they can hit somewhere else.
The Dyle isn't in the same class as the Meuse as a barrier, apparently in places its not much of a river at all.
Italy - ah yes, Benny. A lot of that decision is going to depend on how well the Germans SEEM to be doing when he has to make the fateful decision, and probably also involves how the French presence in NA is seen.
Driftless
Donor
Ominous music playing in the background as we see newsreel footage on Il Duce, standing on a balcony, arms folded, head bobbing in a condescending scowl?
If memory serves didn't Italy attempt to push the French border OTL but get thrown back?
According to Wiki it was only the collapse of the French Government that got the Italians to move from the defensive to attack.
