The Forge of Weyland

Yeah thats the issue with the idea . Altough maybe as a prelude to invading the european colonies , you kick the americans out of the pacific basicly is the only motivation that even makes sense . And yes i forgot that french indochina was one of the final straws for the americans so that could change things .

Altough the dutch might be willing to sell the japenese the oil they need but who knows how they pay for it is the issue i guess ?
I’d say the Dutch will happily sell oil to Japan because Japan can pay for it. IIRC they had a fair amount of hard currency, the problem was the USA freezing their accounts which I believe only happened after the occupation of Indochina.
 
Moi? No, I was making a point, exactly like all the other points that other people make. You got a problem with me, making a point? Really? Oh, dearie, dearie, me. You really are a fool.

What was the point? Foolish old me just reads it as you once again offering up a history lesson (that all of us who are interested already know) without a point that actually relates to the discussion.
 
Well, during the OTL disaster Churchill made the following promises to Reynaud:

I think that means the 8th Infantry Division from Palestine.

Even without much hurry, the british army can field a very powerful new corps with the 8th Division, the 1st Canadian, 6th Australian, 1st New Zealand and the additional armoured brigade.

There is another reserve in France: the Poles. As weapons become available, Sikorski may be able to field all of his 4 Divisions and 1 Armoured Brigade by summer's end. The same goes for the polish pilots:By May 1940 only 130 Polish pilots had been added to the AdA. Give those men some Hurricanes! Or at least P-36s! Not MS 406 and C 714! It was such a wastage!

For the short term, the Allies have plenty of reserves since they haven't lost more than half of their armies.

The problem with this is those divisions weren't actually fully formed, equipped and/or trained. The 8th Division you mentioned only had two brigades and lacked division troops. The Canadians, Australians and Kiwis weren't fully trained and/or equipped. We have to remember that we're in May 1940. Ideally you wouldn't use the Dominion troops for a few more months.
 
18 May 1940
18th May 1940

Britain


The 1st Canadian Division is ordered to France, as is 3rd Armoured Brigade (with attached Infantry tanks). The 52nd(Lowland) division is to be made ready to follow. These units will be designated as V Corps, and at the moment they are intended to be the mobile reserve for the BEF. It is expected it will take about a week for everything to be moved over and the Corps to be put in place. The fighting in the Sedan area has made this deployment more urgent, and the move is given priority. The shipping will also deliver additional tanks for 1st Armoured and 1 ITB, to replace those taken from the reserve in France to cover those lost during the recent fighting.

Holland

Given what is seen by the General Staff as the failure of the Manstein Plan, the immediate conquest of Holland has been temporarily postponed. Two of the front line divisions will be replaced by reserve units, to keep an eye on the Dutch, allowing them to be redeployed in northern Belgium. It is not expected that the Dutch will do more than perhaps the occasional raid - if that - from behind their water defences.

North Belgium/Antwerp

Reconnaissance aircraft and patrols have found that Antwerp, and the area around it, is a considerably tougher proposition than had been initially thought. The failure to take Holland quickly has given the defenders a few extra days to prepare. While the original plan - to circle around Antwerp and isolate it - is still considered the best option, more forced will be necessary. Two additional divisions will be there in a day or two from Holland, and two more are being reassigned from those intended to follow up an Ardennes breakthrough. Additional armoured support had also been requested, as only one panzer division, the 9th, is available. High Command is considering moving two of the divisions battered in the Ardennes north, and one of these could be made available, but with the losses taken fighting the British and French armour these will only be at about half strength

Belgium

Small actions and patrols continue along the Dyle Line. These seem at the moment to be mainly to keep the defence occupied, although at least one attack against the British 3rd Division was in brigade strength, and caused the defenders heavy losses before they could be repulsed. There is also activity in the Gembloux area, where the two Panzer divisions stationed there have recovered from their earlier battle with 2 and 3 DLM, but as yet nothing major has occurred. As the earlier battle was basically a draw between the two armoured formations, the German command wants to reinforce with one of the southern panzer divisions. Given the time, its now thought that the French are well dug in, and the artillery is being positioned and supplied for proper support of an attack. The Luftwaffe will also be needed, and at the moment the bridgehead over the Meuse is occupying most of their attention.

Ardennes.

After the actions of the previous day, things seem calm by comparison, although many units are still involved in action. The most notable being in the north west of Dinant. This is seen as a town that needs to be held by the Germans, and the French are equally determined to force them back from it. The German infantry forces here are actually stronger than the French, and resist stubbornly. The French have better success with 1DCR against the already-damaged 5th Panzer Division, but the panzers are used skilfully, showing their still-superior tactics, and with the infantry unable to press forward the days actions are inconclusive. The French are bringing forward more artillery to support a new attack on the following day, while the Germans are finally managing to untangle their logistic issues east of the Meuse.

Around Sedan, both sides are digging in. The French artillery is in range of the city and the river crossings (or rather what used to be the river crossings), and the Germans are getting more supplies brought up. The heaviest action is in the vicinity of Charleville-Mezieres, where the French 53rd division, aided by part of 3DCR, is attempting to push the Germans out of the town. They have some success, but have been surprised at the problems of using their tanks in the town, and have had significant losses due to this. They also have to worry about 1st Panzer, whose tanks have been identified in the area.

In the area between Rocroi and Fumay, the Germans are digging in. While the panzers are withdrawing to reform, they do have a sufficiency of Infantry divisions, and their aim is to hold this bridgehead west of the Meuse. Their problem is getting supplies up over the limited road and bridges, in order to hold they need artillery and shells. The French want to at least push them back over the river, which would give them a much more defensible line, and 2DCR and 4DCR are moving up. While the terrain isn't ideal for tanks, they are not looking at a fast advance, just continuing pressure to force the German infantry back to the river line.

In the rear, 1DLM is recovering from the previous days battle. The division is at around half strength, with more than a few tanks in need of repairs before they become available, and it is therefore the mobile reserve. British 5th Division is to hold the Phillipville area, in case of any unexpected German successes, while the 1st Armoured Division, with about 70% of its original tank strength now available, is the main mobile reserve.

General Giraud hopes that new French units arriving from the south will soon enable the Meuse line to be reclaimed. He is worried the 1AG's mobile reserve is currently immobile and stuck here. A new Corps under Touchon will be in a position to force the Germans out of Charleville-Mezieres tomorrow, and as long as the other German forces can be held, should be in a position to roll the forces west of the Meuse up. He doubts if this will actually happen - he thinks it much more likely that the German Infantry will retire behind the river - but that will make the defensive situation a lot safer.

The Luftwaffe suffered considerable losses yesterday, and while in action, it's not the type of heavy support, being mainly reconnaissance missions and fighter cover while decisions are made as where to use them next. The French Air Force is also recovering from the previous day, although the new High Command is in general pleased with the effort, it is obvious it still needs a lot more planes, and the work at getting more French Aircraft available goes on.

A small column of British tank transporters starts off from Trelon, heading to Calais. It carries the least-damaged examples of some of the German tanks and equipment left behind after the previous days actions with the British and French divisions. The idea is to get them back for detailed examination by British and French technical experts to work out the best ways of countering them.

Germany

The US Ambassador delivers a formal note of protest to the German Government concerning the Luftwaffe bombing of Dutch cities, seen as an attack on civilians rather than military targets. This is rejected by the Germans, who merely reply that the bombing was on factories supplying war materials and Dutch Army units using the cities as cover.

The failure of the Manstein Plan (as the Generals are making sure it's called) is an obvious worry to the Staff. While the actions of the next couple of days are obvious, a proper plan is needed for the next couple of weeks to carry on the offensive in the West, with the assumption that at best the french defence opposite the Ardennes will be in place and not caught by surprise. A number of options are available, and it is hoped to present these in a day or two. Input from the Luftwaffe as to its current capacity to help is also required, and their planning isn't made any easier by the keen interest Hitler is taking.
 
Thanks for the update.
What is the casualty ratio so far, between the Entente and the Germans?
Hmm.
I'm going to go with about 3:1 in favour of the Germans at this point
The initial attacks in Belgium and then in the Ardennes did a lot of damage (and a lot of prisoners), but from the 17th things were a lot more even (in fact on the 17th german losses were a lot higher than the Allies). Most of the losses on both sides are prisoners, of course
 
I think most of the Allied POWs are of the French speaking type.
Also can you threadmark the map from the 18th (post 3207). These maps are truly amazing. Can we have one from the eastern maginot too Antwerp please
 
So when does Stalin smell blood in the water and declare war?

After he has done a deal with his revolutionary Comrades in France and the British Empire ( Glorious Revolution Comrade, the English workers have a long history of executing their Kings, insert article in the Great Soviet Encyclopedia now) to secure the Russian speaking areas of Poland and Finland and taken delivery of the Battleships Robespierre and Saint Just from the Fascists.

The problem with this is those divisions weren't actually fully formed, equipped and/or trained.

Quite, The Brits are not near maximum strength and will want the naval blockade, economic warfare and bombing to take effect, the French strategy was to use the shield of the Maginot Line and field army to allow for full national mobilisation. They both know they will only get stronger, and in terms of planning assume the Germans are stronger that they actually are.

The immediate issue will be what the ground truth says. after the Governments were planning for 1919 when Haig and Foch decided they could win in 18.

Longer term the and for a longer war they have several issues that diverge from OTL. They have no money as in useable cash so importing things they have to pay for is an issue. They are also short at least 1m men from the workforce compared with OTL. The French Belgian and I think Dutch POW were used in farming, cutting timber and general labour duties so that has to be done by German nationals who can't then be mobilised. With only 4 years of any conscription any earlier classes are both their version of the hollow years and totally untrained OTL they had the year prior to Barbarossa to do this OTOH they probably wont emphasise the Navy and LW at the time - which led to prime cannon fodder going into LW support units and only being properly employed as part trained infantry in 44/5 but the infantry attrition starts a year earlier than OTL.

defenders heavy losses before they could be repulsed

'B Company reports 24 casualties Sir,'

'Very well, Carry on Sarnt Major'
 
I think most of the Allied POWs are of the French speaking type.
Also can you threadmark the map from the 18th (post 3207). These maps are truly amazing. Can we have one from the eastern maginot too Antwerp please
They did get a lot of Belgian troops as well, fighting a rearguard action across Belgium to the Dyle wasn't cheap
 
Hmm.
I'm going to go with about 3:1 in favour of the Germans at this point
The initial attacks in Belgium and then in the Ardennes did a lot of damage (and a lot of prisoners), but from the 17th things were a lot more even (in fact on the 17th german losses were a lot higher than the Allies). Most of the losses on both sides are prisoners, of course
That lopsided? Wow.
 
How about the number of tanks/planes lost by each army?
Lots.
No, seriously, if I dry and drill down to that level of detail, you wont get much story.
Naval actions are different - far fewer units - but unless its a copy/mod of an existing action, it all has to be worked out, which takes a lot of time.
 
Think they mean the 8th Infantry Division of the British Army. It was garrisoning Palestine at the start of the war. Although Wikipedia tells me it was actually disbanded early in 1940.

The 8th Division you mentioned only had two brigades and lacked division troops
Quite so.

However, there were additional units in the neighborhood, including a battalion of the "Ladies from Hell". It will depend on how urgent the need for additional divisions is. If the need is grave, then to form a division by pre-war Regulars is a quick solution and it will provide a capable division. If the need is not great, the 2 brigades of the 8th can be attached to one of the various HQs and get a third territorial brigade. Another brigade from Egypt or the 3 battalions of Jerusalem can form the cadre for a 2nd brigade. In both cases, it is easier to do this way, rather than build and train from scratch a Territorial Division.

If the need for additional divisions is deemed low, then the 3 aforementioned brigades can become the cadre for 3 new divisions. Although I wouldn't expect these divisions to be ready until perhaps October or November.

The same process applies to the battalions of the Indian Army. They can be brought back if Italy doesn't enter the war and become the cadre for another corps by spring 1941.

Given what is seen by the General Staff as the failure of the Manstein Plan, the immediate conquest of Holland has been temporarily postponed. Two of the front line divisions will be replaced by reserve units, to keep an eye on the Dutch, allowing them to be redeployed in northern Belgium. It is not expected that the Dutch will do more than perhaps the occasional raid - if that - from behind their water defences.
In the words of Teddy Roosevelt, "Bully"!

The only short-term remedy for badly trained troops -such as most of the dutch units- it is too dig deeper. Even an additional week would do wonders at least for the very near future. The main problems such as artillery, ammo and vulnerability of the remaining dutch cities will remain. But even so, it is a win for the Allies: two reserve divisions are away from Belgium and the Ardennes. Better than nothing I suppose.

The Germans would need to keep a division in front of the Fort Kornwerderzand and Friesland. If the Allies land a motorized corps in Holland, they can cross the Afsluitdijk and establish a bridgehead east of the Rhine. That would be a dagger held at the heart of the Third Reich.

Or they prioritize storming Fort Kornwerderzand.

The Germans would also need at least another division to garrison Zeeland or risk the Allies linking with the Dutch. Perhaps two divisions because due to the geography of the region and the allied naval superiority make difficult for the various garrisons to support each other.

Reconnaissance aircraft and patrols have found that Antwerp, and the area around it, is a considerably tougher proposition than had been initially thought. The failure to take Holland quickly has given the defenders a few extra days to prepare. While the original plan - to circle around Antwerp and isolate it - is still considered the best option, more forced will be necessary. Two additional divisions will be there in a day or two from Holland, and two more are being reassigned from those intended to follow up an Ardennes breakthrough. Additional armoured support had also been requested, as only one panzer division, the 9th, is available. High Command is considering moving two of the divisions battered in the Ardennes north, and one of these could be made available, but with the losses taken fighting the British and French armour these will only be at about half strength
And the British send a corps with another armoured division to act a reserve of the BEF just south of the Belgians. British armour- the nemesis of the panzers.
 
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How about the number of tanks/planes lost by each army?
By now RAF reserve stocks will be badly drawn down after re-equipping depleted Belgian, Dutch and Norwegian squadrons as well as replacing their own losses. I doubt there are many Hurricanes or Battles left in the depots. Dowding will be going slightly insane.
 
By now RAF reserve stocks will be badly drawn down after re-equipping depleted Belgian, Dutch and Norwegian squadrons as well as replacing their own losses. I doubt there are many Hurricanes or Battles left in the depots. Dowding will be going slightly insane.
Dowding released 4 squadrons.
Undoubtedly there will be pressure for more to follow, but (at the moment) we still have the French Air Force in action.
 
By now RAF reserve stocks will be badly drawn down after re-equipping depleted Belgian, Dutch and Norwegian squadrons as well as replacing their own losses. I doubt there are many Hurricanes or Battles left in the depots. Dowding will be going slightly insane.
Very astout observation!
Dowding would be somewhat wrong. A Luftwaffe that focus on the battlefield, is a Luftwaffe that cannot bomb Britain with efficiency. Belgium and Fortress Holland are the shields of the british skies. If the Germans reach the Channel they can deploy single-engined ifghter escorts over Britain. Or did Dowding believe the bomber barons' mantra that the bomber will always get through?

In any case, the main restraint of the Allied airforces at this point is pilots not machines. The Belgian and Dutch airmen worth quite a lot.
 
Very astout observation!
Dowding would be somewhat wrong. A Luftwaffe that focus on the battlefield, is a Luftwaffe that cannot bomb Britain with efficiency. Belgium and Fortress Holland are the shields of the british skies. If the Germans reach the Channel they can deploy single-engined ifghter escorts over Britain. Or did Dowding believe the bomber barons' mantra that the bomber will always get through?

In any case, the main restraint of the Allied airforces at this point is pilots not machines. The Belgian and Dutch airmen worth quite a lot.
Dowding spent 4 years making sure the bomber DIDN'T get through, at least at an acceptable loss rate, and proved it.
His job is the air defence of Britain, so of course he wants more fighters. But at the moment there have hardly been any raids on Britain, so its hard to not justify releasing some planes. He can spare planes more than he can pilots, so he will also be asking for the Belgian and Dutch pilots currently without aircraft to be urgently trained on fighters so they can relieve his squadrons.
In the longer term, British aircraft production will help solve the problem. As long as German air bases dont get too close...
 
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