The Forge of Weyland

Well, the Dyle Plan (without the Breda variant) did offer great advantages (when there is no 20/20 hindsight): a shorter frontline, saving the Belgian Army and perhaps more importantly, not wrecking the industrial heartland of France located across the franco-belgian border.

A longer frontline would go against the whole french military theory. Economy of forces was the cornerstone of french interwar policy.

The Belgian Army had already decided to fight in the K-W Line - the northern half of the Dyle Plan line. Antwerp itself wasn't the redoubt of WW1, as it was supposed to be held by 4 second rate reserve divisions. The field army, including the active and the first rate reserve divisions was to concentrate south to Wavre. The organic artillery of the Fortified Position of Antwerp was moved to the other fortified positions. During the Sudeten Crisis mobilization, the Belgians had chosen the Ghent Bridgehead as their redoubt and it raised a political thunderstorm as it "betrayed Wallonia". The National Redoubt in 1940 was the Dyle Line and wouldn't change. These facts are presented in Epstein's "Belgium's Dilemma: The Formation of the Belgian Defense Policy, 1932-1940".

If the Allies want to keep Belgium, its army and part of its industry in the game, they will have to choose the Dyle Line.

Wrecking the french heavy industry across the border was simply a nightmare. By 1918, the Germans had thorougly looted the most industrial region of France of everything that could be moved. It took years to rebuilt it and the northern steel magnates were perhaps more influential than their Lorraine counterparts. An, Escaut Line won't be the best protection of french industry and runs the risk of destroying it all over again.

That being said, the Breda Variant was pure idiocy.







 
The sheer lunacy of the French letting Belgium pull out of their alliance beggars the mind. Seriously upon being told that this was being seriously considered a blank check to prevent it should have been issued to the revelant diplomats
 
The sheer lunacy of the French letting Belgium pull out of their alliance beggars the mind. Seriously upon being told that this was being seriously considered a blank check to prevent it should have been issued to the revelant diplomats

Yeah I've never understood why they didn't get heavy-handed and even under-handed. A few accidents here and there might have helped. It remains a shameful chapter in Belgian history - not that every nation doesn't have a few of those.
 
Breda variant is idiotic with hindsight but not at the time, if you provide a link up point for the remnants of the dutch army even if they loose alot of gear it would be worth providing a link to evacuate to the allies and there is the point that germans have barely any defenses against them wich would be very valuable later on in giving dutch hope to fight on. The same is true of belgium since their army is rather big if abit underequipped .
 
OTL it was a close thing. Many french military leaders were worried by the Breda variant.
About the Escaut Plan : with the benefit of hindsight, there is no way that Army Group B could have broken through the Allied lines in Belgium, as it was too small for the task.
 
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Oct1939
1st November 1939

Sir John and his team had just finished their inspection of the two prototype tanks. These were a Sabre and a Cutlass which had been refitted to mount the 6pdr gun finishing development. The modifications had gone well, and while a few small problems had been found there were no serious issues. The change to a mechanical elevation mount in the Sabre earlier in the year had made the fitting simpler; the change allowed the gun to be moved forward in the turret, effectively allowing it to take up less space. The Cutlass had been designed to take the 6/18pdr, so again the 6pdr wasn't a problem.

The gun itself was due for its final acceptance trials in December, and Vickers had suggested that they include the two tank-mounted guns in the trials, as it was intended to be fitted on them. Once the gun had passed acceptance, they hoped to be able to offer it fitted to tanks by the summer, as long as they got the resources to open a new production line. The original idea had been to take over one of the HV3pdr lines, but the need for that gun was too great to close one down to convert to the 6pdr, so there would be a little longer delay than had originally been anticipated.

There had been discussions - and a lot of sketches and arm-waving - over the concept of a HE round for the gun. Woolwich had originally intended it as the heavy AT gun for the Royal Artillery, in which usage only an AT round was really needed, but the tank designers felt that something better than just an HE filling (as in the HV 3pdr) could be done with some thought, and if they could manage that then the 6pdr, which still not as effective as the 6/18pdr in the Close Support role, would be considerably more flexible. While the current solution the RTC had decided, mixing CS tanks in with the cruisers to provide a mixed force, it was recognised that this wasn't a perfect solution, and while they still intended to do this, a greater HE capability would be useful.

The suggested solution was to use two rather different shells. The HE or smoke round would be a longer and heavier shell, fired at a lower MV to reduce the need for a heavy, strong shell casing. The filling would extend back into the propellant space, as the shell wouldn't need to penetrate armour. They calculated that by doing this they could fit in an additional 50% explosive, a considerable improvement. As a result of the changes the shell would actually be considerably heavier than the 6pdr, they calculated it as nearly 9 pounds. The only drawback would be the need to modify the gunsight to allow for the two different muzzle velocities, but this had already been done for the 6/18pdr without any real issues. While it did require some additional training, it had been found that the combination of this plus learning the mechanical elevation and the move-stop-shoot technique actually required noticeably less time to reach acceptable standards than the old shoulder-elevated firing while moving.

7th November 1939

The Belgian and Dutch Monarch's emphasize their country's neutrality, but offer to act as peace negotiators. Hitler rejects the proposal, as do both Britain and France. Paul Thummel, a double agent, passes details of the German plans for the western offensive to the Czech government-in-exile, but there are concerns that this is not genuine intelligence.

8th November 1939

A bomb intended to kill Hitler explodes at the annual meeting of the veterans of the 1923 Nazi Putsch in Munich, but the Führer had already left the beer cellar. The German media accuses Britain of orchestrating an assassination attempt on Hitler, a claim strongly denied by the British Government.

9th November 1939

By November 1939, the French had decided that a defence along the Dyle Line in Belgium was feasible but the British were lukewarm about an advance into Belgium. The Escaut plan was considered the simpler of the two options, as the advance would involve only a day's march for the Allied left wing. This would allow the three non-motorised divisions of Seventh Army to reach their defensive line far more easily.

The Dyle plan meant that the BEF would have to advance 60 miles over roads which might be difficult to use due to refugees. Their complete move would take some seven days, although the main part of the force would reach its defence line much more quickly. The position of the Seventh Army was also more difficult, either they would need more time - assuming the Belgian Army would hold - or the advance would have to be led by their motorised units, which would then be tied down and unable to act as a reserve.

However there were advantages to the Dyle position as long as it could be reached in time. It would also make it easier for the retreating Belgian Army to fall back behind. With the Dendre and Escaut rivers and the prepared defences of the French frontier lying behind it, the Dyle position could be organised in greater depth. The defensive line was actually shorter than the Escaut line, and if held would deny a far larger area of Belgium to the enemy.

The British were still worried about the loss of the most mobile part of the reserve. While First Army had its own reserve, they felt one was needed for the northern part of the Army Group, as the Belgian Army could not be counted on to more than delay the Germans while falling back on the Allied lines. Once this had been done, it was expected that they would be in no condition to do more than recover from this.

Given their reservations, the British offered a modification to the plan. Seventh Army would be split in two, the three Infantry divisions and the two motorised divisions along with the 1st Light Mechanised division. While there was insufficient transport to make the 21st, 60th and 68th Divisions truly motorised, enough could be found to enable them, and particularly their advance units, to make the advance to the Dyle line in plenty of time. To add to the mobile reserve, the British would add the 1st Armoured Brigade immediately, and increase this to the full 1st Armoured division when it was fully deployed, which was expected in December. They also agreed to include the 5th Infantry division, again expected in France in December.

This, they pointed out, would have considerable advantages. There would now be a strong mobile reserve, including the armour which would be needed if the Germans committed strong Panzer forces in their area. By doing this now, it would allow time for the British and French units in the reformed Seventh Army to train together and so be more effective in combat. While Gamelin would have preferred his original plan - he was worried about the difficulty of finding the transport assets for the three infantry divisions - the addition of more British units, including an Armoured Division, did mean that Seventh Army should be fully capable of acting as the reserve for the northern section. He still expected the German advance to be further south, but this allowed him to retain the French armour to cover the expected thrust. On 9th November, the Dyle Plan/Plan D was formally put to the Supreme Allied War Council a few days later.

13th November 1939

German bombers attack Britain for the first time, a raid on the Shetland Islands in which no damage was done. It did however concern the RAF, who were worried about further attacks, and in particular the danger posed by the Luftwaffe gaining bases in the Low Countries. This added weight to the idea of the Dyle plan, as they were not convinced that the Escaut line would stop the Germans obtaining forward air bases. The issue if Holland was still not solved - while nota s close as Belgium, it would still make bombing Britain easier, but as Holland was neutral and unwilling to join in any official war planning it was felt little could be done at this point.

17th November 1939

The Supreme Allied War Council agrees on the co-ordination of British and French war production. While there is already co-operation between industries, it has been done in a piecemeal manner, and in order to maximise the war potential of the two countries this needs to be managed properly. It is also decided that if the Germans should invade Belgium, then both British and French troops will move forward in to Belgium to defend the Albert Canal, River Meuse and the River Dyle, which were considered strong positions from which to meet any German attack. However, the Belgium government refuses to allow Allied reconnaissance parties in to country for fear of provoking the Germans, and this means the Allied Armies will have to take their word as to the nature and completeness of defensive preparations. Gamelin issued a directive that day detailing a line from Givet to Namur, the Gembloux Gap, Wavre, Louvain and Antwerp

{ For those interested in some of the things you can do with shells to improve penetration and HE load, I recommend CANNON, MACHINE GUNS AND AMMUNITION (quarryhs.co.uk), Tony William's excellent site, he really knows his stuff on guns. I shamelessly adapted some of his concepts.}
 
Ah Mr Dragon Sir! it is not just you who shamelessly use the excellent Mr William's web site as a source of inspiration, I for one plead guilty too!
 
Given their reservations, the British offered a modification to the plan. Seventh Army would be split in two, the three Infantry divisions and the two motorised divisions along with the 1st Light Mechanised division. While there was insufficient transport to make the 21st, 60th and 68th Divisions truly motorised, enough could be found to enable them, and particularly their advance units, to make the advance to the Dyle line in plenty of time. To add to the mobile reserve, the British would add the 1st Armoured Brigade immediately, and increase this to the full 1st Armoured division when it was fully deployed, which was expected in December. They also agreed to include the 5th Infantry division, again expected in France in December.

I'm a little confused. So, the three infantry divisions of the 7th Army are assigned to the BEF? While the BEF gives 1st Armoured Brigade - Division, when ready - and 5th Infantry to 7th Army, which will then act as a mobile reserve?
 
No, two divisions of the BEF (1st Armoured and 5th Infantry) will be with 7th Army. This will consist of 3 Corps; the 3 French Infantry divisions (to be sent into Belgium), the two French motorised division and the cavalry division, and the two British divisions. The latter two Corps being the mobile reserve for the northern sector of operations. It is hoped that time will allow the mobile units to train together.
 
No, two divisions of the BEF (1st Armoured and 5th Infantry) will be with 7th Army. This will consist of 3 Corps; the 3 French Infantry divisions (to be sent into Belgium), the two French motorised division and the cavalry division, and the two British divisions. The latter two Corps being the mobile reserve for the northern sector of operations. It is hoped that time will allow the mobile units to train together.

Ok, so that's different. Though it still has 7th Army orientated on the extreme left of the line, I imagine?
 
The Corps marked for Belgium is on the left, yes. The rest is a bit closer to the BEF (the BEF's supply line means they don't want them too far south anyway), in a good position to support any part of the front.
 
I thought an explanation of why things have changed at this point might be useful.
From reading, the Dyle plan was popular in what it did (protection more of Belgium, a deeper defence zone, a shorter line), the problem was a shortage of units.
There was still a lot of argument about it.

This time some butterflies have started to flap. The British have been playing with their armoured units, and realised that while its main mission is still a breakthrough and disruption of an enemy force, its armour and mobility make it very good as a rapid counterattack force. Worried about the reserves sauntering off into Belgium (having now a better idea of just what an armoured division can do to you if your aren't careful), they have offered 1st Armoured, as long as some of the 7th Army is held back as well, sweetening this with the promise of a motorised infantry division.
In OTL, 1st Armoured wasn't available when these plans were made, so the British didn't have too much to offer despite their worries, and were much easier to ignore.
The British are also being a bit cunning here. Their earlier thinking was along the lines of 1st Armoured plus a couple of Infantry divisions coming to be the mobile reserve for the BEF. They are pretty happy with the current situation, they have 3 French divisions available as well, and the area to be covered isn't much greater, so overall they profit.

From the French POV it's not a bad deal either. A lot of people were unhappy with not having a decent reserve, and they now have a strong one. If the divisions sent into belgium have problems, they can still reinforce from the reserve. If their part of the front is in no immediate danger, the British armoured corps can be held a bit further south if needed to support the 1st Army area.

It seems a much better solution, which is only possible with the extra British armour.
 
Breda variant is idiotic with hindsight but not at the time
Not exactly. If cooperation with the Belgian Army before the attack was difficult, it was 100 times worse with the Dutch.

Sending up north the 7th Army would have made sense only if the Peel-Raam Line was to be hold. The problem is that you cannot reach in time a defensive position that is not well manned and lies hundreds of kilometers away. Without the Peel-Raam Line, it would have meant open battle in the Brabant fields, far away from mutual support of the the rest of the 1st Army Group. Now the majority of Dutch officers doubted that they could hold the Peel position and succesfully retreat if there was such need. Only Reijnders kept insisting on this arrangement. General Van Voorst tot Voorst continued disagreeing with Reijnders even after the latter became commander in chief. The Peel-Raam Line didn't enjoy much support from the government cycles either. In the end, the canibet forced Reijnders to resign.

Winkelman, the successor of Reijnders had the right idea: the dutch army was way too small to defend a large part of the country, so its concentration behind the Grebbe Line was deemed the best strategy. Not to mention that the dutch army was not that capable for manouver warfare and it was more prudent to be used in static defence. Now Winkelman had a problem: what to do with the Peel-Raam Line that was under construction in late 1939? Until April 1940 he was hoping for the French to arrive in time.

Even with the 7th Army planning to march north, the Dutch were convinced that the Peel-Raam position could not be held. So, they kept behind it the 3rd Corps and the Light Division to create an illusion of staunch defence. These formations would retreat during the night of the first day of the war, the Light Division to Holland to act as a reserve and the 3rd corps to the south end of Fortress Holland. Even though these plans were communicated to Gamelin, the idiot held on to his Breda Variant!!!

Now that the plans have been laid, if the French communicate from November 1939 that they don't plan to advance further than Antwerp, then the continuing efforts on building the Peel-Raam will be directed to the Grebbe Line. The 3rd Corps wont be stationed in Den Bosch, but covering the flank of the Grebbe Line. Instead of having 1 regiment of the Light Division in Den Haag, there will be the full division there. I doubt the whole Peel Division would stay behind the Peel, perhaps only a token force.

If the bridges at Dordrecht and Moerdijk are protected or quickly recaptured by the 3rd Corps, then the Germans may have a tough time to quickly conquer the national redoubt. Without the bridges falling, the Light Division (being concentrated around Den Haag from the start) will destroy the air-landing forces. Then the Battle of the Netherlands becomes a siege, not a quick and brutal coup.


but this allowed him to retain the French armour to cover the expected thrust
If I understand this correctly, the 7th Army along with the 1st Armoured and 5th Inf. will have the Wavre-Louvain sector (the one appointed to the BEF), while the Cavalry Corps of Prioux will be positioned in the Gembloux Gap as in OTL?
 
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