Not at the moment.
Remember, dispositions will change as the BEF becomes stronger.
It's who is where when Germany attacks that's important
The Forge of Weyland
- Thread starter Astrodragon
- Start date
Remember, dispositions will change as the BEF becomes stronger.
It's who is where when Germany attacks that's important
That would be grand!
But what about moving the 51st to the BEF and giving Monty's 3rd to the 7th Army? One thing is for sure: by May 1940 his troops will be excellent at defending against tanks.
You need good divisons in the main BEF is the argument against that and his probably was the best divison thanks to his training mania . Altough him getting promoted to a corps commander and training the corps like he did his divison is a thing to consider altough he is abit too junior without combat to be honest to warrant that.
If the brits can insist on keeping the reserve even when they capture the german war plans wich actually was what forced germans to come up with the sickle cut strategy by the way in early 1940 asfar as the documentary series on youtube said atleast. The french actually considered the otl attack from the ardennes to the coast but found it the least likely option the germans would choose and were thinking they would attack the maginot line and its armies from the rear or a dash for paris instead .They even predicted that the divisons could reach the french frontline in 60 hours when in otl it took 58 wich is very accurate but not acted upon at all wich is very strange .
The reserve can be thrown in front of the panzer divisons that are breaking out of sedan i guess to stop the thrust ? It should give just enough time for the french to reorganize themself to contain the thrust atleast somewhat is probably astros plan . I think then the decision could be made by the germans to try to drive to paris instead of the coast . Probably after a halt order by german high command and again attack the weaker french armies south rather than west towards the sea where the decent french armies are and the BEF is while leaving infantry to defend that side of the bulge ?
If the brits can insist on keeping the reserve even when they capture the german war plans wich actually was what forced germans to come up with the sickle cut strategy by the way in early 1940 asfar as the documentary series on youtube said atleast. The french actually considered the otl attack from the ardennes to the coast but found it the least likely option the germans would choose and were thinking they would attack the maginot line and its armies from the rear or a dash for paris instead .They even predicted that the divisons could reach the french frontline in 60 hours when in otl it took 58 wich is very accurate but not acted upon at all wich is very strange .
The reserve can be thrown in front of the panzer divisons that are breaking out of sedan i guess to stop the thrust ? It should give just enough time for the french to reorganize themself to contain the thrust atleast somewhat is probably astros plan . I think then the decision could be made by the germans to try to drive to paris instead of the coast . Probably after a halt order by german high command and again attack the weaker french armies south rather than west towards the sea where the decent french armies are and the BEF is while leaving infantry to defend that side of the bulge ?
If the Germans decide to go to Paris instead, we end up with pdf27's excellent timeline A Blunted Sickle.
Missing Threadmark.
"There is no Overkill, only open fire and reload" is maxim 37 of the Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries, a popular book in the webcomic Schlock Mercenary's universe. Characters often quote the maxims and the book itself had a real world copy (defaced by the characters of the webcomic) published as part of a kickstarter.
Other maxims include things like "3. An ordnance technician at a dead run outranks everybody", "5. Close air support and friendly fire should be easier to tell apart", "11. Everything is air-droppable at least once. ", "32. Anything is amphibious if you can get it back out of the water", "42. "They'll never expect this" means "I want to try something stupid."". A full list can be found here.
????
84mm Tsetse gets no Google hits.
The standard Tsetse was the 57mm 6pder
Do you have a cite for the bigger variant?
Typo. 94mm not 84mm.
I don't have the sources to hand but there are some, including an image of a recoil-damper for the 32lber designed by a Monsieur Galliot which is available on google.
IMechE
The United Kingdom invented the tank and was responsible for campaign-winning tactics, yet by the start of World War II had fallen well behind other nations in the design and build of armored vehicles. William Suttie tells the history of tank design from a government perspective and how the situation during World War II resulted in the formation of the Fighting Vehicles Research and Development Establishment at Chertsey which developed world leading vehicles and technologies throughout the Cold War.
The United Kingdom invented the tank and was responsible for campaign-winning tactics, yet by the start of World War II had fallen well behind other nations in the design and build of armored vehicles. William Suttie tells the history of tank design from a government perspective and how the situation during World War II resulted in the formation of the Fighting Vehicles Research and Development Establishment at Chertsey which developed world leading vehicles and technologies throughout the Cold War.
December 1939
November 1939, Canada.
The attitude of the British government in ordering war supplies from Canada had been quite reserved. There were two main reasons - first, Canada didn't produce much war material, although plans were in motion to increase this, and secondly that Britain was short of Canadian dollars with which to pay for them. The situation wasn't helped by the general reluctance of British firms to give up their designs and technical knowledge, although there were exceptions - companies which had Canadian subsidiaries were more likely to help. Canadian manufacturing was based on the American pattern and systems, and this meant it was often hard to make equipment to a British specification. It was a somewhat complicated situation for the British, who also saw Canadian industry as the best available in the Dominions.
For its part, the Canadian Government was hoping to avoid a repeat of the heavy losses on the Western Front, and if possible to avoid any form of general conscription. However forces would be needed to defend Canada, and public opinion made it necessary to offer some Army units. The initial decision was to raise two Infantry Divisions, one to serve in Europe and one to defend Canada. After considerable discussion, it was pointed out that Canada was in the process of building factories that could produce tanks and other armoured vehicles. Considering this, and the British ideas about using armoured forces, the force would have two Armoured Brigades added, one of which would serve overseas with the 1st Canadian Division. Unlike the British Independent Armoured Brigades, it was intended that this would be a permanent addition. The 1st Canadian division would also be equipped with carriers - they had seen the estimated for how these could reduce casualties, and doing this was a major aim of the politicians.
The raising and training of the 1st Canadian was going well, and it was hoped that it would be ready to send overseas in the Spring. Then it was expected to need some months of additional work in order to integrate it with the British Army. The expectation was that there was sufficient equipment available for the bulk of the division's needs, although some things like AT guns would be needed from Britain. While Canada was looking at building these herself, the new Vickers plant near Toronto wasn't expected to start production before the middle of 1940.
There were some things that could be delivered faster. Canada could produce trucks, and the British Army needed all the trucks it could get. After looking at the available resources, Vivian Lloyd had been consulted and a modified Lloyd carrier design, using vehicle components sourced in Canada, was a quite feasible option. This had been looking at before the war, and it was hoped the first Canadian-pattern carrier would roll out early next year. In the meantime, the British had suggested that if the Canadians were to go with the Sabre or Matilda tanks, they could supply enough to get the units trained up before Canadian production started to arrive. They would also be happy for some of the men who were to form the units arrive in Britain to get some experience with the tanks.
November 1939. The mobile Anti-Aircraft gun
The idea of a twin 20mm Oerlikon cannon mounted on a carrier had been original intended to give air protection to the fast-moving armoured brigades. An order for 100 guns had been made with the Swiss company in November of 1938, and about 60 had been delivered; the rest were expected by early in the New Year. The intention had been to then use the British-built version - this had been requested by the Royal Navy, simplification being needed to allow unskilled operators to work with the gun. The Army had expected to receive a portion of the output, but while they had started to come off the production line some months ago, so far the navy had grabbed all of them.
The Army had requested that either a percentage of the output be allocated to them, so they could plan properly, or that an additional order be placed with the Swiss, although they were unhappy with the slow rate of production. Given the now-huge need of AA guns by the Army, a second, larger, production line had been authorised, but this wouldn't be producing any guns until late Spring 1940.
As a temporary solution, 300 guns were ordered from Switzerland. The order would have been larger, but the Swiss couldn't promise delivery of even this order before next summer, and by then domestic production would be available. In the meantime, the rest of the existing order would go to the Army, and a small number of the guns the Navy wanted.
To maximise the use of the guns, the suggestion was that the initial guns would all be carrier-mounted. This was more a more expensive solution, but it meant that they could be moved around in support much faster, and with the limited availability of guns this would be useful. Once supply of guns increased, the carrier mounted version would be re-allocated to the Armoured formations.
It was hoped by the Spring to have 40 units available (the remaining 10 being used for training) using Swiss guns, and another 20 using the British version. The 1st Armoured would need 24, and the proposed Independent Armoured Brigade another 12. The remaining 24 would be allocated as divisional assets to the Infantry divisions, to get them familiar with the weapon. In time, these would be replaced by a truck-towed version.
15th December 1939
Just in time for Xmas, the 5th Infantry division arrived in France. This was the last of the regular divisions, the next to arrive would be territorial units.
After the arrangement made over the reserves, the 5th would act with the 1st Armoured Division as the British contribution. The 1st Armoured wasn't complete yet, although the final units were expected soon, and while they had to be ready if needed, it was hoped there would be time to allow training both with the 1st and with the French Corps. While the men had some familiarity with tanks, it was felt they needed more experience both in working with them and acting as part of a mobile force. To aid that, they were going to be the first infantry division equipped with the new Wyvern carriers, although so far only enough were available to equip one Brigade.
Once the 1st Armoured was operation, the two divisions would form III Corps under General Lindsay. An old armoured hand, he'd been involved in training in the UK and was thought his experience in playing the infantry defence against the RTC in summer exercises would be most helpful, as the expected use of the force would be to repel German Panzer formations.
The attitude of the British government in ordering war supplies from Canada had been quite reserved. There were two main reasons - first, Canada didn't produce much war material, although plans were in motion to increase this, and secondly that Britain was short of Canadian dollars with which to pay for them. The situation wasn't helped by the general reluctance of British firms to give up their designs and technical knowledge, although there were exceptions - companies which had Canadian subsidiaries were more likely to help. Canadian manufacturing was based on the American pattern and systems, and this meant it was often hard to make equipment to a British specification. It was a somewhat complicated situation for the British, who also saw Canadian industry as the best available in the Dominions.
For its part, the Canadian Government was hoping to avoid a repeat of the heavy losses on the Western Front, and if possible to avoid any form of general conscription. However forces would be needed to defend Canada, and public opinion made it necessary to offer some Army units. The initial decision was to raise two Infantry Divisions, one to serve in Europe and one to defend Canada. After considerable discussion, it was pointed out that Canada was in the process of building factories that could produce tanks and other armoured vehicles. Considering this, and the British ideas about using armoured forces, the force would have two Armoured Brigades added, one of which would serve overseas with the 1st Canadian Division. Unlike the British Independent Armoured Brigades, it was intended that this would be a permanent addition. The 1st Canadian division would also be equipped with carriers - they had seen the estimated for how these could reduce casualties, and doing this was a major aim of the politicians.
The raising and training of the 1st Canadian was going well, and it was hoped that it would be ready to send overseas in the Spring. Then it was expected to need some months of additional work in order to integrate it with the British Army. The expectation was that there was sufficient equipment available for the bulk of the division's needs, although some things like AT guns would be needed from Britain. While Canada was looking at building these herself, the new Vickers plant near Toronto wasn't expected to start production before the middle of 1940.
There were some things that could be delivered faster. Canada could produce trucks, and the British Army needed all the trucks it could get. After looking at the available resources, Vivian Lloyd had been consulted and a modified Lloyd carrier design, using vehicle components sourced in Canada, was a quite feasible option. This had been looking at before the war, and it was hoped the first Canadian-pattern carrier would roll out early next year. In the meantime, the British had suggested that if the Canadians were to go with the Sabre or Matilda tanks, they could supply enough to get the units trained up before Canadian production started to arrive. They would also be happy for some of the men who were to form the units arrive in Britain to get some experience with the tanks.
November 1939. The mobile Anti-Aircraft gun
The idea of a twin 20mm Oerlikon cannon mounted on a carrier had been original intended to give air protection to the fast-moving armoured brigades. An order for 100 guns had been made with the Swiss company in November of 1938, and about 60 had been delivered; the rest were expected by early in the New Year. The intention had been to then use the British-built version - this had been requested by the Royal Navy, simplification being needed to allow unskilled operators to work with the gun. The Army had expected to receive a portion of the output, but while they had started to come off the production line some months ago, so far the navy had grabbed all of them.
The Army had requested that either a percentage of the output be allocated to them, so they could plan properly, or that an additional order be placed with the Swiss, although they were unhappy with the slow rate of production. Given the now-huge need of AA guns by the Army, a second, larger, production line had been authorised, but this wouldn't be producing any guns until late Spring 1940.
As a temporary solution, 300 guns were ordered from Switzerland. The order would have been larger, but the Swiss couldn't promise delivery of even this order before next summer, and by then domestic production would be available. In the meantime, the rest of the existing order would go to the Army, and a small number of the guns the Navy wanted.
To maximise the use of the guns, the suggestion was that the initial guns would all be carrier-mounted. This was more a more expensive solution, but it meant that they could be moved around in support much faster, and with the limited availability of guns this would be useful. Once supply of guns increased, the carrier mounted version would be re-allocated to the Armoured formations.
It was hoped by the Spring to have 40 units available (the remaining 10 being used for training) using Swiss guns, and another 20 using the British version. The 1st Armoured would need 24, and the proposed Independent Armoured Brigade another 12. The remaining 24 would be allocated as divisional assets to the Infantry divisions, to get them familiar with the weapon. In time, these would be replaced by a truck-towed version.
15th December 1939
Just in time for Xmas, the 5th Infantry division arrived in France. This was the last of the regular divisions, the next to arrive would be territorial units.
After the arrangement made over the reserves, the 5th would act with the 1st Armoured Division as the British contribution. The 1st Armoured wasn't complete yet, although the final units were expected soon, and while they had to be ready if needed, it was hoped there would be time to allow training both with the 1st and with the French Corps. While the men had some familiarity with tanks, it was felt they needed more experience both in working with them and acting as part of a mobile force. To aid that, they were going to be the first infantry division equipped with the new Wyvern carriers, although so far only enough were available to equip one Brigade.
Once the 1st Armoured was operation, the two divisions would form III Corps under General Lindsay. An old armoured hand, he'd been involved in training in the UK and was thought his experience in playing the infantry defence against the RTC in summer exercises would be most helpful, as the expected use of the force would be to repel German Panzer formations.
Why would they? Especially the Belgians were open about the defensive preperations and the various positions being prepared. Allied offcers occasionally visited the areas in question, under belgian invitation. No reason to send spies when the country sends you detailed maps.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
This is a serious question.
What exactly was one division (now + an armoured brigade) going to defend in Canada, and who did they think would be attacking?
Any threat from Germany or Japan would primarily be naval, which would mean coastal defence & perhaps a navy; an infantry division, even with tanks, is going to be practically irrelevant in these scenarios.
The only land threat is from the USA, and if it comes to war, one division isn't going to cut it.
Given the size of Canada, where would they base this (I assume) fast reaction force?
What exactly was one division (now + an armoured brigade) going to defend in Canada, and who did they think would be attacking?
Any threat from Germany or Japan would primarily be naval, which would mean coastal defence & perhaps a navy; an infantry division, even with tanks, is going to be practically irrelevant in these scenarios.
The only land threat is from the USA, and if it comes to war, one division isn't going to cut it.
Given the size of Canada, where would they base this (I assume) fast reaction force?
As plans and dispositions are constantly changing as more British divisions arrive, I'll leave this till things actually kick off
It's not the seals, it's the bears. God help you if they get the moose to cooperate. I've seen Aussies who've taken on an entire gaggle of Emu barehanded run in terror from an organized Moose herd.This was the OTL decision.
Those seals take a lot of dealing with, you know
More seriously, the idea of Canada going to war and not leaving a force to defend the home territories is unthinkable, just as the idea of the US sending its entire active military overseas is absurd. Even if your lands aren't under direct threat from invasion, you still need facilities and approaches defended, from potential saboteurs and spies at the very least.
As for how Canada expects to defend the whole country with a singe Division, the subcomponents of the force are distributed regionally according to the planning department.
The thing is, given the sheer size of Canada, even if you only look at the coastal regions, it's such a huge area that unless you split the force up into penny packets, it would take quite some time to get to the site of any landing - and penny packets could be easily defeated. Then you need to ask, who would be invading and what would they be looking to capture? Even if the invader managed to capture a port, then what are they going to do?
Mechanised forces would obviously be useful, if only because they can move around faster - but not tanks in any numbers.