The Fatherland - a Nazi victory TL
- Thread starter Onkel Willie
- Start date
- Status
I'd expect the Pacific War to be bloodier than OTL. There won't be a Soviet entry into the war, and the German victory will probably give the Japanese a confidence boost - after all, if the Germans can drive away the English and American invaders, surely the great Empire of Japan can defeat them. Of course, the Japanese would soon find out they are mistaken.
No Lend-Lease would mean greater concentration of arms and supply in the Pacific Theater I'd say.
Turkish entry to the war would also mean the Allies would lose Middle East (relatively) soon, as hundreds of thousands of Turkish soldiers with German "advisors" overrun Iraq, Syria, and threaten the Suez Canal!
Turkish entry to the war would also mean the Allies would lose Middle East (relatively) soon, as hundreds of thousands of Turkish soldiers with German "advisors" overrun Iraq, Syria, and threaten the Suez Canal!
AussieHawker
Banned
Were any Turkish troops even trained as paratroopers / gliders before this? I mean they likely want to be seen as part of the operation, but inexperienced troops para trooping sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Anyway while Spain joining helps the North African campaign, they do overextend the resources of a blockaded Europe. I think Germany will need to be releasing troops to go back to farming and factories soon, particularly if they are giving back POWs who made a extensive part of the forced labour used.
Anyway while Spain joining helps the North African campaign, they do overextend the resources of a blockaded Europe. I think Germany will need to be releasing troops to go back to farming and factories soon, particularly if they are giving back POWs who made a extensive part of the forced labour used.
Push the soviets to re-entry the war, focus on preparing a full blown operation overlord by 1947 with landings on North France, Norway, Spain, Algeria and morroco, and for now try to consolidate a defensive line in the middle east and north africa.
AussieHawker
Banned
Retake the outer regions. Convince Portugal to allow a landing, and use them as a launchpad to invade Spain. Once Spain is taken re invade the Mediterranean and cut off the German, Italy and Vichy armies in Northern Africa. Invade Turkey from Syria and Iraq. Keep building up for a French invasion. Italy, Greece and Spain are too easily blocked by Mountains, so France is the main option left. But it will likely have to come after Japan is knocked out.
These sorts of Nazi victory scenarios are always depressing, but I must ask... what will ultimately become of Eastern European Jews and other groups targeted by the Reich in this scenario? With the Soviets knocked out of the war early but still left as a basically functional state that “merely” has Brest-Litovsk 2.0 imposed upon it, maybe some sort of population exchange is proposed where the USSR accepts many Jewish, Slavic, Roma, and other refugees in exchange for, say, the Volga Germans? Sure, Germany would be sending away far more people than they would get in exchange, but the whole point was to eventually Germanize those eastern lands, so the Nazis might deem this the most efficient way to go about it in such a scenario (plus, getting several hundred thousand Volga Germans to settle there will help expedite the process). Unfortunately, the Nazis were nothing if not illogical in their goals and prejudices, so I dunno.
For his part, at least, Stalin would get millions of Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians to settle throughout the USSR, with the Central Asian SSRs being a likely destination for many of them, which may create a permanent Slavic majority in that region. Many Jews might be settled in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a second such special area is established for Jewish resettlementin sone part of the Caucasus, as was one of he original proposals for the oblast before the Far East was picked by Stalin - perhaps it will be the Volga lands recently vacated by the ethnic Germans, or the Chechnya, as many of the Chechens were deported east during WWII as well.
For his part, at least, Stalin would get millions of Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians to settle throughout the USSR, with the Central Asian SSRs being a likely destination for many of them, which may create a permanent Slavic majority in that region. Many Jews might be settled in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a second such special area is established for Jewish resettlementin sone part of the Caucasus, as was one of he original proposals for the oblast before the Far East was picked by Stalin - perhaps it will be the Volga lands recently vacated by the ethnic Germans, or the Chechnya, as many of the Chechens were deported east during WWII as well.
AussieHawker
Banned
Considering the Soviets are starving, I don't think there will actively encourage taking in even more people. So they will have to hoof it themselves, or have the Nazi decide to force them over the border.
And Stalin was still a anti Semite.
From the German perspective, that the Soviets are starving is an excellent reason to require a population exchange: more dead Soviets, and rescue the Germans from such suffering.
As I see it the Soviets are the only hope and the spinal reflex, cry out “betrayal” and stop lend-lease was the most stupid political decision. The alternative is that the Wallies suffer the millions of dead, and that against an enemy who would be willing to offer peace any time if they could keep what they already had.
Off course, there will one day be new weapons, but noone knows that yet. Also, ITTL the Germans would start playing the long game and work for real on their own project.
It would come later, but i dont Think the Germans Can be nuked to submission before they can retaliate.
The journeys to Auschwitz and other such places are much shorter than the journey to the new "frontier" with Russia. Also, while schemes to deport the Jews were the idea early on, the Wannsee Conference has happened ITTL, where a final, not temporary, "solution" to the "Jewish problem" has been decided on. Based on Nazi ideology, deporting the Jews only allows them to regenerate to cause further problems in the future - like a disease they must be wiped out. As far as the other Untermenschen (Slavs, Roma, etc) some like the Roma and particularly irritating Slavs will go to the extermination centers. The bulk of the culling of the Untermenschen will be done by working them to death and/or starving them until the population reaches the levels desired to provide slaves, lab rats, etc that were going to continue to exist as illiterates with no culture of their own. Naturally there will be widespread kidnapping of very young adequately "Aryan" children to be raised as good Germans as happened OTL but on a larger scale.
The Nazis were anything but efficient, however working people to death/starving them in place is more productive than expending the effort to ship them across the border, where they may add to the problems of the rump USSR but also represent a potential gain of skilled workers and military age men. The same Soviets - old/younger men/boys, and women who dug the defenses of Moscow with hand tools can be utilized to clear rubble, work on rail lines and roads, and do the myriad other manual labor tasks that need to be done on the new Reich territories. Similarly farms still need to function to provide food for Germans, and it will be some time before those become German run enterprises (think plantation slavery eventually).
Germany is still fighting a war with the USA and Britain, as well as the Empire, Free French, and others. Turkey and Spain provide some warm bodies for local actions, but both are drags on German resources. For example now Germany has to provide 100% of the stuff Spain imported like food and petroleum as the Allied blockade has ended imports. Petroleum is still an issue, the Soviet oil fields that the Germans overran OTL had been severely trashed, and you know any others they reach ITTL will be the same. Repairing them, getting production up, and the infrastructure to transport all that oil back to the Reich will take years. With the much greater area Germany has to defend and control, they will be significantly resource stretched even without an active Ostfront - administering/controlling that territory, to say nothing of the rebuilding needed and the "dealing" with the folks destined for death will require a fair amount of manpower - boots on the ground are the only way to deal with partisans, and once it becomes clear that if you don't resist/support partisans you are dead, killing a few Nazis before you go becomes a sensible option.
The Nazis were anything but efficient, however working people to death/starving them in place is more productive than expending the effort to ship them across the border, where they may add to the problems of the rump USSR but also represent a potential gain of skilled workers and military age men. The same Soviets - old/younger men/boys, and women who dug the defenses of Moscow with hand tools can be utilized to clear rubble, work on rail lines and roads, and do the myriad other manual labor tasks that need to be done on the new Reich territories. Similarly farms still need to function to provide food for Germans, and it will be some time before those become German run enterprises (think plantation slavery eventually).
Germany is still fighting a war with the USA and Britain, as well as the Empire, Free French, and others. Turkey and Spain provide some warm bodies for local actions, but both are drags on German resources. For example now Germany has to provide 100% of the stuff Spain imported like food and petroleum as the Allied blockade has ended imports. Petroleum is still an issue, the Soviet oil fields that the Germans overran OTL had been severely trashed, and you know any others they reach ITTL will be the same. Repairing them, getting production up, and the infrastructure to transport all that oil back to the Reich will take years. With the much greater area Germany has to defend and control, they will be significantly resource stretched even without an active Ostfront - administering/controlling that territory, to say nothing of the rebuilding needed and the "dealing" with the folks destined for death will require a fair amount of manpower - boots on the ground are the only way to deal with partisans, and once it becomes clear that if you don't resist/support partisans you are dead, killing a few Nazis before you go becomes a sensible option.
I can see Stalin doing what he did in Red Tsar and order his own holocaust of the Jews in Soviet territory among others. (Any ethnic groups that runs a foal of Stalin for whatever reason.)
I understand that Stalin was an anti-Semite, but he wasn’t as virulent in his anti-Semitism as the Nazis, and he was far more willing to use the Jewish community for his own ends - for instance, establishing the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the Far East, not as a favor to the Jewish people, but to boost the population in that area to help guard from Japanese incursions. In this world, it could also manifest as settling Jewish refugees in parts of the Caucasus that were underpopulated as a result of the expulsions of the Volga Germans, Chechens, Kalmyks, and others.
Fuethemore, while Stalin’s antisemitism was certainly more virulent in his later years, would that necessarily happen here? While bigotry is always irrational, Stalin’s paranoia led him to believe that, post-WWII, Soviet Jews held more loyalty to the Western countries, who at that point were Stalin’s primary rivals. In a world with an extremely anti-Semitic German Reich right across the border, wouldn’t Stalin potentially come to consider Soviet Jews as one of the groups more loyal to him, for fear of the alternative?
If Stalin does engage in a campaign of genocide, wouldn’t it be more likely to be targeted at groups that were deported IOTL, such as the aforementioned Caucasus ethnicities? The status of the Volga Germans might be useful as a bargaining chip with Berlin, though.
- Status