The Fatherland - a Nazi victory TL

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Onkel Willie, Oct 8, 2018.

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  1. LunazimHawk Your Friendly Neighborhood Bengal Sultan

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    Feb 3, 2018
    We may not experience Watergate Nixon, but we experienced this Nixon, the best Nixon.
     
  2. Onkel Willie Kaiser

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Location:
    Netherlands
    Adolf Hitler: 1933 - 1954 (21 years)
    Heinrich Himmler: 1954 (<1 year)
    Hermann Goering: 1954 - 1958 (4 years)
    Albert Speer: 1958 - 1981 (23 years)
    Reinhard Heydrich: 1981 - 1992 (11 years)
    Siegfried Hitler: 1992 - current (3 years)

    The complete list:cool:. As everybody may have guessed, Himmler is the Reich's Beria.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  3. LunazimHawk Your Friendly Neighborhood Bengal Sultan

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    South America is going to be pretty interesting to see ITTL. I'm going to throw a guess and say that even with the liberalization of the US politics, the drugs on war will still occur. (It's kind of depressing how much some Nazis were facsinated with the idea of the noble savage or the Native Americans, I remember reading an article on how Native's were considered a "Aryan".)
    I wouldn't be surprised of facist guerillas all over Argentina and Uruguay started popping up, being aided by Nazi Germany.
     
  4. Threadmarks: Chapter XXI: Nixon Redeemed and China’s Place under the Sun, 1995-2000.

    Onkel Willie Kaiser

    Joined:
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    Despite the personal loss I've suffered recently, I shall at least finish this TL. This brings us to the next update:


    Chapter XXI: Nixon Redeemed and China’s Place under the Sun, 1995-2000.

    When the Republic of China became the largest economy in the mid-90s, it began using its growing military power to settle territorial disputes through shows of force and, if necessary, through military action. The Diaoyu Islands, referred to as the Senkaku Islands in Japan, are a group of uninhabited islands that had been under Japanese control since 1895, but with Chinese claims dating back to the 14th century. Even before the discovery of potential oil and gas reserves and the transfer of administrative control from the US to Japan in 1980, China had begun disputing Japan’s sovereignty over the islands. In 1990, China launched the first of the 88.000 tonne class Han-class super carriers and the vessels necessary to constitute her carrier group, followed by a second carrier named Gaozu in 1993 (three more sister ships named Wen, Jing and Wu would be commissioned in 1996, 1998 and 2000). In April 1995, the Republic of China Navy seized the islands during a major naval exercise by landing an infantry platoon of fifty men on the largest island, Diaoyu Dao (Japanese name: Uotsuri-shima). After they planted the Chinese flag, barracks, a small command bunker, a radar station, a small airstrip, a short range anti-aircraft missile launcher and a jetty were all built within three months. The size of the permanent garrison increased to the size of a company, 250 men, while at least one guided missile destroyer, one attack submarine and a larger number of smaller patrol ships were patrolling the waters around the island group at any given time. Exploitation of surrounding oil and natural gas fields commenced in the years that followed to feed the growing hunger for fuel of a growing economy and a population that, according to predictions, would reach 1.7 billion by 2020.

    The Japanese government was predictably furious as they had owned the islands from 1895 until 1945 and had been recognized as their sovereign when the US formally returned the Ryukyu Islands in 1980. In 1965, Japan had finally been allowed by the US to establish armed forces of its own, officially referred to as the Japanese Self-Defence Forces. The Japanese Ground Self-Defence Force consisted of 100.000 soldiers organized into ten divisions when they were initially founded. These were equipped with side arms, assault rifles, hand grenades, fighting knives, mortars, man-portable anti-tank rocket launchers like bazookas and man-portable anti-aircraft missiles like the Stinger. Initially the Ground Forces had been conceived as an infantry force and essentially a militarized force for internal order to assist the US occupation.

    As the relationship between the US and Japan slowly changed to one of allies and the Americans finally began investing heavily into Japan’s economy, infrastructure and military, the Ground Forces morphed to a true army capable of defending the country. As its role changed, it received infantry fighting vehicles like the M2 Bradley and armoured personnel carriers like the M113, M60 tanks, Huey utility helicopters, Chinook transport helicopters and Apache helicopter gunships. In 1980, Japan was allowed to double the size of its army to 200.000 men and increase it by another 50% to 300.000 men in 1990. The Japanese Maritime Self-Defence Force, also founded in 1965, evolved from a glorified coastguard with patrol boats, corvettes and frigates to a green water navy capable of operating in the waters around the Home Islands. By 1995, it was made up of fast diesel electric attack submarines, landing ships, helicopter carriers, guided missile destroyers, destroyer escorts, landing ships, minesweepers and various auxiliary vessels (the possession of aircraft carriers and guided missile battleships remained prohibited). The Japanese Air Self-Defence Force was founded in 1975 and equipped with the F-14 Tomcat. These developments were insufficient as they only permitted Japan to defend itself, but not to challenge the rising Chinese. At any rate, Article 9 of the 1947 Japanese Constitution renounces the sovereign right of belligerency as a means of settling disputes surrounding the state.

    The US proposed sanctions in the UN Security Council, but these were predictably blocked by a Chinese veto. With their sanctions proposal blocked, the Nixon Administration resorted to other measures, starting with a request to the World Trade Organization in regards to the violation of intellectual property rights by the Republic of China. In a nutshell, the United States believed firstly that certain Chinese laws counteracted intellectual property rights by forcing foreign companies to engage in joint ventures with Chinese companies, in which their new Chinese partners are granted access and permission to use, improve, or replicate their technologies. Secondly, the United States argued that China was noncompliant in recognizing legitimate patents and that their policies discriminated against foreign imported technology. In addition China had instituted an array of non-tariff barriers meant that some critical sectors of the Chinese economy remained relatively insulated from international competition.

    Nixon imposed a 25% tariff on a wide range of Chinese products and froze the bank accounts of a few Chinese officials, measures that were followed by America’s British and a number of its Latin American allies. China retaliated with similar measures. As part of China’s latest Five Year Plan, the Ministry of Finance and Economic Affairs announced a campaign to complete the mechanization and the implementation of scientific methods in agriculture, pushing Chinese industry to produce enough farming equipment, fertilizer and genetic modifications to crops to reduce China’s reliance on food imports, as China imported a lot of food from the US. Secondly, the country planned to increase production of electricity through hydropower, windmills, solar power, coal fired plants and nuclear energy to reduce imports of oil and gas.

    Chinese President and Kuomintang leader Lee Teng-Hui, successor to Chiang Ching-kuo who had died in 1988, was undeterred. He moved on to the next issue, which was who exactly controlled the Spratly and Paracel Islands. The Paracel Islands were disputed between China and Imperial Vietnam; waters west of the Spratly Islands are also disputed between China and Vietnam while the islands themselves are disputed by Brunei, Malaysia and the Philippines as well. In February 1997, China claimed the entirety of the South China Sea islands, including subsoil, seabed and waters. Twenty thousand Chinese troops were deployed to many of the islands while China also turned reefs into artificial islands with small airstrips, jetties and short range anti-aircraft missile launchers. The Republic of China Navy maintained a strong presence and a shooting war with the Vietnamese navy resulted as they insisted on patrolling in what they saw as their own territorial waters or adjacent neutral waters. Things escalated when the new Emperor of Vietnam, Bao Long, wouldn’t back down and ordered his navy to remove the Chinese invaders from islands claimed by Vietnam from his palace in the capital of Hue, resulting in direct fighting between Chinese and Vietnamese soldiers and major naval engagements. As a demonstration of resolve, China assembled 1 million troops and 2.000 tanks and invaded northern Vietnam in mid-June after two months of rising tensions, seizing Hanoi after three weeks of combat. Neighbouring Cambodia seized the opportunity to correct some minor border disputes militarily, leading to fears of a two pronged invasion. Under threat of invasion and total occupation, Emperor Bao Long backed off and reluctantly recognized Chinese territorial claims.

    To China’s neighbours the message was clear: except for a true Emperor, the Chinese Empire was back and it expected tribute of some kind. Whether other Asian countries were willing to submit was another matter though. Burma, Thailand, Cambodia, Brunei, Indonesia and Korea had already founded the Asian Economic Community together with China in 1979. The AEC was a regional organization aimed to bring about economic integration, including a common market and customs union. In practice, China’s economy was so huge that it dominated the economies of the other AEC members. China bought from them the few things it wasn’t autarkic in, such as oil and food; Chinese conglomerates also outsourced some of their production to China’s poorer, less developed neighbours and built infrastructure there for that reason, giving the appearance that China was uplifting its neighbours rather than just using their cheap labour and laxer regulations; finally, part of China’s exports went to those countries.

    China also developed bilateral defence pacts with several of its neighbours, for example by giving the Burmese army money, training and equipment in the event of a future war against India. Korea was another given since the Koreans decades after the war still distrusted and feared Japan, especially after the US allowed limited remilitarization with the formation of the Self-Defence Forces. Korea, a country with 80 million inhabitants and with living standards even higher than China’s and Japan’s, still has conscription and maintains a peacetime strength of 800.000 men (in other words, 1% of the population is in the armed forces at any given time). Thailand and Cambodia formed military alliances with China too because of their territorial disputes in the Gulf of Thailand with Malaysia and Vietnam respectively (Cambodia seized the disputed island of Phu Quoc during the 1997 Sino-Vietnamese War, and has relied on China to keep the Vietnamese from retaking it ever since). Brunei has had a longstanding dispute with Malaysia over Limbang and therefore signed a defence pact with China. For Indonesia, China was a natural ally given their positive relations since Indonesia’s independence and Chinese support in the preceding independence struggle. China’s military alliances with Burma, Thailand, Brunei, Indonesia, Cambodia and Korea were integrated into the Bangkok Defence Organization in 1990. The pact wasn’t invoked by China during the Sino-Vietnamese War.

    In the meantime, China undertook its own prestige projects. The mid-90s, for example, saw the completion of the massive Three Gorges Dam on the Yangtze River, the world’s largest dam with an installed capacity of 22.500 MW, an annual production approaching 100 TWh and a set of locks to ensure the river remained navigable. Besides massive construction programs, China too had a massive space program. After launching unmanned satellites into Earth orbit and reconnaissance probes that took numerous pictures of the four rocky planets from 1977 onward, the first Chinese astronaut was launched in 1982 and orbited Earth before landing safely in the East China Sea. Later, China sent a man to the moon in 1989, followed by several more lunar missions in the 90s. Yet another prestigious mega project was the new Olympic Stadium in Nanjing, which had a capacity of a quarter of a million people, making it the second largest stadium in the world (after the Nuremberg Olympic Stadium, which can seat 400.000 people). It was completed in time for the 1996 Olympics that took place in Nanjing and saw a record number of Chinese medallists.

    The White House and the Pentagon were greatly concerned with the rise of China and its clear willingness to resort to military aggression to gain what it felt it was entitled to. As mentioned in fierce state propaganda, this originated in a desire to undo the “century of humiliation” between the start of the First Opium War in 1839 and the end of the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1945 now that the means were available. Though China had a relatively “small” nuclear stockpile compared to the tens of thousands of weapons the US and the Reich had until signing SALT II (1.000 warheads and about 250 ICBMs as well as 96 SLBMs) as well as a stated “no first use” policy, they had enormous conventional forces. The Republic of China Army maintained a peacetime strength of 3 million and could quadruple that number in the event of war, making it the largest army in the world (but still a tiny speck compared to China’s total population of 1.3 billion in 1995).

    Nixon had had plans to travel to Germania to consolidate the détente between the United States and the Reich. US-Reich relations were stable and there was an understanding about spheres of influence, particularly after both sides understood the Italian led bloc would belong to neither’s sphere as Rome intended to go its own way. As China upgraded from great power to superpower with its own plans and portents without consideration for the other two superpowers’ interest, Italy moved into its place as the great power that the Reich and the US had to jockey into supporting them in the UN Security Council. Nixon didn’t get around to visiting Germania.

    He was concerned with his re-election in ’96, in which he defeated popular Governor of Kansas Bill Clinton (one of many Democratic Governors in the South, which had been decidedly Democratic ever since Reagan’s infusion of Christian social conservatism made them popular there). After that, Nixon became quite depressed due to the death of his wife and First Lady Pat Nixon of cancer on Wednesday June 25th 1997 (after two strokes in 1980 and 1987). He was visibly shaken and distraught at the funeral, which was of course televised. There was a wave of public support, as exemplified by the ocean of flowers that appeared outside the fences of the White House.

    The President himself, in the meantime, had been suffering from a condition called atrial fibrillation for fifteen years, which had been managed by medication (and by a team of doctors constantly on stand-by after the beginning of Nixon’s Second Presidency in 1993). He had suffered a transient ischemic attack, also called a mini stroke, on Tuesday April 19th 1994 and remained aloof from politics for eight weeks on doctor’s orders, leaving Vice President George H.W. Bush to pick up the slack. He reassumed his responsibilities in mid-June 1994 and continued until the death of his wife in June ’97, after which he came down with a “viral infection” and was stricken for eight weeks until mid-August 1997. On Thursday June 18th 1998, a blood clot that had formed in his upper heart as a result of his atrial fibrillation condition broke off and travelled to his brain, causing a massive stroke. He was initially alert, but unable to speak or move his right arm and leg. Damage to the brain caused cerebral oedema and he slipped into a deep coma, after which he was pronounced dead at 11:48 PM (Washington Time). He was the ninth President to die in office and the fifth to do so because of natural causes. Because of his charity work in the 60s, 70s and 80s, his writings and his successful Second Presidency, Nixon could finally rest in peace. Given that he was now arguably up there with Roosevelt, Kennedy and Reagan among the most important twentieth century Presidents, he’d been redeemed. More than that, he was quite unique as he was the only President to be elected five times and the only twentieth century President with two Presidencies.

    On Friday June 19th 1998, George H.W. Bush, aged 74, was the new President of the United States (Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich became the new Vice President) and the wave of sympathy wave extended to the 1998 midterm elections, allowing him to avoid the “third term itch”, a pattern in a President’s third term in office is characterized by disgruntlement toward the President and his party. On the contrary, the ’98 midterms were a major success for the Republicans as they conquered both the House of Representatives and the Senate, success unseen in American history. George H.W. Bush completed Nixon’s term and was re-elected in 2000 through the sympathy vote, handily beating popular Democratic Senator from Tennessee Al Gore by winning both the popular and the electoral vote. Bush could do as he pleased, but undertook no serious changes and stuck with modifying Nixon’s existing policies. That included Nixon’s planned tentative rapprochement toward the Reich to contain the rise of the Chinese behemoth, which analysts believed constituted a threat to American interests in the Pacific.

    The issue was clearly illustrated by the Hong Kong Crisis. Hong Kong Island had formally been ceded in perpetuity to Britain in 1842, after 1860 also including Stonecutters Island and Kowloon south of Boundary Street. In 1898, Kowloon was “extended” and the territories added to Hong Kong were leased for 99 years, which meant the lease would end in 1997. Hong Kong largely relied on the New Territories for its water, electricity and food supplies, but Britain wouldn’t hand it over unless the existing democratic political system in Hong Kong was guaranteed by the one-party Kuomintang regime for thirty years after the transfer. President Lee Teng-Hui refused to maintain the system of government they considered to be imposed on Hong Kong “by a Western imperialist, capitalist aggressor.” The New Territories were formally transferred on July 1st 1997 as the 99 year lease ended, but no agreement had been reached on Hong Kong Island. With supplies from the mainland cut off, almost everything had to be imported and the UK was haemorrhaging money to keep Hong Kong supplied. Electricity had to be rationed, resulting in rolling blackouts, while twelve litres of water per day were allotted to every family. If China opted for a military solution, there was no real way to defend Hong Kong short of a retaliatory nuclear strike, which would result in a Chinese response (which would result in really bad press as China had officially adopted a “no first use” policy). The crisis ended with a compromise mediated by the US, arguably Nixon’s last foreign policy success: on Friday May 1st 1998 China purchased Hong Kong for the symbolic amount of £ 10 million (roughly £10 for every inhabitant).

    In 1999, Bush became the first US President in history to visit Germania, ostensibly to discuss successors to CAFT and SALT II and further reduction of tensions. To the American public, still remembering the Schindler revelations, rapprochement to Germany was anathema. Bush had to tread carefully. After being show the sights and attending a military parade clearly meant to impress him, a secret face to face meeting between Bush and Hitler took place in the Führer’s chancellery. Bush got a very strange sensation from walking the halls of the chancellery designed by Speer and entering the office which Adolf Hitler himself had been using less than fifty years earlier, in which he was confronted by his spawn that was every bit as manipulative, cunning and ruthless and with those same mesmerizing blue eyes and characteristic moustache as well as the surprising ability to speak English fluently. As far as the publicized reason for their meeting went, the Reich wouldn’t go along with further decreases in conventional or nuclear forces, so no SALT III or a successor to CAFT. As to the unofficial reason of joining forces against China, Siegfried Hitler said that for now German interests weren’t threatened by the rise of China. Siegfried boasted to Bush. He said “if the yellow Asian hordes ever come after us, we’ll obliterate them through our nuclear means, which far exceed theirs. Sure, we’ll lose a couple of cities, but they will reduced to a medieval state and will regret not leaving us alone.” Bush learned Hitler’s son wasn’t as ideological but just as ruthless and merciless as the original. No concrete agreement emerged, which was perhaps best given the tremendous popular opposition to cooperation with the Reich in the US, not to mention that America’s Soviet ally was freaking out just because there were German-American “talks”.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2018
  5. CmdrShep2154 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 3, 2017
    How is pop culture in this timeline? Did Star Trek and Star Wars get butterflied away?

    How would a Nazi victory affect Babylon 5?

    Were the evangelicals powerful enough to take down Dungeons & Dragons?

    Would BioWare still be a thing or do the founders stay in the medical profession?
     
  6. Onkel Willie Kaiser

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    As someone who likes Star Trek and Star Wars, I'd say neither are butterflied away. Star Trek would be darker, I imagine, while in Star Wars the Galactic Empire would be "Nazis in Space" even more clearly than IOTL. As far as Babylon 5 goes, I don't know enough to comment. If someone feels like doing a pop culture update, I won't stop them, but of course on the condition that it doesn't contradict anything that has been written so far.
     
  7. LunazimHawk Your Friendly Neighborhood Bengal Sultan

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    Feb 3, 2018
    Sorry to hear about your loss, hope your family is doing well. Also Sino India war might occur more later on than OTL, especially as India begins modernizing. How are the two Pakistan doing? I thought by now East Pakistan (Bangladesh) would of revolted, which could be kind interesting when you see how the political allignments of most of the countries is going to be changed.
     
  8. Onkel Willie Kaiser

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    I didn't specifically mention it, but Bangladesh is independent. More updates on Asia are underway btw.
     
  9. President Earl Warren Well-Known Member

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    Jul 19, 2017
    Great update, BTW my suggestion for The Dem nominee for 2004 and 2012/16 respectively: Harold Ford Jr. (A young southern black congressman, with social conservative values)/Dick Gephardt (the expierenced man who can carry a part of the country where the Dems have been having trouble and can navigate Congress)
    Bob Casey Jr.(modern Pro Life Dem, from Pennsylvania) /Jon Bel Edwards (another guy from the South)
     
  10. LunazimHawk Your Friendly Neighborhood Bengal Sultan

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    Feb 3, 2018
    Yay, at least I wasn't butterflied away ITTL. It's kind of interesting seeing the Chinese move on the South China sea 30 years than usual.
     
  11. Mare Leones Banned

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    Dec 8, 2018
    Why no Tannenbaum?
     
  12. fluttersky ~ᴍeʀmᴀiᴅ iɴ a seᴀ oғ aɴoᴍiᴇ~

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    Aug 13, 2014
    Location:
    Earth
    That mention of the USSR really makes me wonder how the last fifty years of its history have progressed, in all respects. The Soviet Union hasn't really been focused on much ITTL.
     
  13. andry2806 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2016
    Oh, fuck. No one child policy here, I suppose.
     
  14. Changundramon Well-Known Member

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    Aug 4, 2015
    It seems weird that Japan would have forgotten what Americans did to it before the rise of China. Korea fears both China and Japan, historically.
     
  15. FillyofDelphi Well-Known Member

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    Mar 7, 2017
    On the plus side for the US and Germany, they're going to have Beijing by a choke collar in terms of food prices. No way a China that goes with the same crash industrialization and projects like Three Goarges has a prayer of feeding itself, and the Eastern European and Midwestern breadbasket are going to be needed to keep staples at a low cost. I don't think I need to cite too many examples to claim that rising food prices can trigger nasty social unrest...
     
  16. King_Arthur The Once and Present King

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    Bolvangar
    What countries have carriers ittl?
     
  17. manav95 Well-Known Member

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    May 16, 2012
    So things are roughly similar to OTL now with th rise of China, their economic strength, and their aggressiveness and stealing of intellectual property. And neoliberalism is taking off now even though Reagan in this TL is a staunch social democrat and supporter of welfare programs. Arguably the only thing different is that the Reich has not collapsed at all, it is merely a little bit nicer than under that crazy motherfucker Heydrich.
     
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  18. CmdrShep2154 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2017
    How is Starship Troopers in this TL?

    Would Star Trek being darker make people more okay or used to darker entertainment? Do we still see Game of Thrones in this TL?

    Do you think Casey Hudson, the creator of Mass Effect would actually become an Canadian military pilot in this timeline?

    https://issuu.com/uofaengineering/docs/enggmagfall2010web

    If so does he stay in and become a general or only serves one term and then joins Bioware with his military service shaping whatever game series he conceives?

    For 2005-2012 what goes into the place of the Mass Effect series? More Star Wars rpgs? Jade Empire sequel? A darker Dragon Age? Something with the occult? A Mass Effect style space military RPG shooter series inspired by Star Trek, BSG, and Star Wars to appeal to the Call of Duty and Halo crowd?

    How about LT Col Dave Grossman? Would he still be an ardent critic of media violence? Or would he advocate using video game technology to create better soldiers?

    Jack Thompson? Does he still destroy his legal career or becomes an politician?

    Tipper Gore? Does she still go after music or does she become passionate on another issue?

    If American culture is indeed more conservative I don't see Bioware going as far as Mass Effect for its romance plots. Bioware games would either have no romance or toned down ones.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  19. TripleCitizen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2018
    I’m sorry to hear about your loss Onkel Willie. I really love this TL and it saddens me that it might end early. Would you let someone else here continue the story if you couldn’t?
     
  20. Jack Brisco NWA Powerhouse

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2017
    I add my condolences to Onkel Willie, as well.
     
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