The Eagle of the East, Rhomania: An Eastern Roman Timeline (1196 - 1245)
- Thread starter Averious
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Having a distinct long-lasting ottoman state would be tough in this timeline. Early ottomans were extremely lucky by having just the right people at the right place, at the right time with many opportunities for growth. Definitely lucky early on as a state.
It would be a long shot for them to be this successful in Syria and Mesopotamia on their own. Maybe if they ally with the rump Seljuqs in atl as they did otl, and rise to power there, they could do better post the mongol crunch.
The Cuman-Bulgarian relations withered when Kaloyan failed to pay for the return of Cuman prisoners, yet Romanos released the Bulgarian prisoners.
As of now Bulgaria and their Cuman neighbours are staring each other down.
You could have the Ottomans be allies of Rhomaioi for their early history, the Romans help them take all of Syria (apart from Antioch I'd assume) as long as the Ottomans recognise Christians as equals to Muslims. You could even have Christian Ottomans if you feel like it.
Except Syria was once part of their land, I don't see why they would simply let Ottos take that land , fellow Christians or not.
IIRC, Romanos V has abandoned all thoughts of reconquering the Roman Empire, instead he is focusing on the Balkans south of the Mountains and Anatolia. His successors could certainly ditch this idea but I find it unlikely they would successfully take Syria, and after many failed attempts they'd probably just take Antioch and establish the Ottomans as a buffer state, especially when you consider that the Ottomans would likely depend on them to not be annexed by Christians, Egypt, or whatever Empire occupies Persia.
good point, on the other hand , if they manage to take Persia they can either threaten RE or go towards India.
Yeah, I feel like should the Ottomans ever become a threat to the RE it should be like this, using the Empire just to backstab it later, a lot like OTL too. Though it definitely won't end the Empire.
Syria is simply to well placed for the RE not to take it, I'd argue that either setting a vassal or outright taking Mesopotamia would be esential in not getting raids every other day too. Altough the constant raids would help convert the people from there.
As I said, I find it unlikely for the Romans to retake Syria, though if they do the Ottomans could be established as vassal in Mesopotamia, just like you said the Romans need. There's also the possibility that the Emperor simply pays Osman to fuck shit up in the Ilkhanate. When Timur comes around stuff would be even more interesting in Persia.
Put into perspective everything put forward I'd like to be blunt in how I see the Empire going forward; as someone who teaches its history as my main job.
I don't see it ever reclaiming anything more than Basil II's borders at best. My 'ideal' Empire would be one that holds all its current Balkan territories, its piece of Crimea, plus all of Anatolia, and chunks of Syria such as Antioch. I foresee writing in the creation of a large Armenian vassal state (as if I can help it I prefer putting together states that function as bastions of culture; as I dislike removing an entire culture from the board unless I can't help it). The Ottomans, potentially, could be a Roman vassal, but I highly doubt that that's how it'll play out. The Turkish migrations into Mesopotamia and Syria would form a new Turkish state, or perhaps several statelets, that will basically take the place of modern day Turkey in the timeline (as in a 'home' for the Turkish peoples as we know them).
TL's that show the Empire suddenly reclaiming all the land of the east, such as Syria and Egypt, as well as holding onto the Balkans, irk me because it feels naturally unrealistic. Part of the reason the Empire lost Anatolia is that it overextended under Basil II, and didn't have enough competent Emperor's to firmly hold onto the borders long enough to make them stable. The actions of the 200 or so years of the 'Conquest' Empire (the period after the 'Hiding' Empire, in which they simply endured Islamic raid after raid, unable to fight back) had the result of turning the Empire inside out; leaving it without a firm core to withstand the several shatter-blows that were the multiple military failures to stop the Turks after Manzikert.
I just can't see the Empire being a superpower that holds half the Mediterranean after all these centuries. I do see them easily being a world power though, in par with France and Britain; certainly among the top tier of the world's nations.
Added to this, is a note on this TL itself; I'm struggling to personally continue--as we go further on from the PoD it's getting harder and harder to ignore the rest of the world. Personally I don't have the time to handle writing out the state of the world, from the British Isles to Mongolia, as well as give a detailed look at Rome as it evolves. I've had the thought to ask around for someone else willing to 'tag-team' this TL who'll work on other states of the world, or help me determine what goes forward, but we'll have to see if anyone is willing to do so, lol.
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I can’t really help, since what I know mostly focus on the empire (and usually the empire of earlier centuries), but I can tell you that you don’t need to focus on the world. Whenever the empire interact with a certain kingdom or geographical area that has diverged from OTL, just give a brief summary of key and most interesting events. It wouldn’t be possible anyway to write a timeline of the whole world while keeping the focus on the Romans. Any other gaps can be left to the imagination of the readers to fill.
Heck invite other readers to write Omake’s about the rest of the world and mark them Canon or Non-canon as it suits the story your trying to tell.
Notice + Spoilers
Its been a half-month since my last update (work caught up with me). In whatever free time I had up until this point I've put into various projects; this one included.
So, as a bit of an interesting 'update' of sorts, I'm going to go into the next 3 generations of the Grypas Dynasty and their most notable members (I've worked on a family tree going as far as 1434, with the death of the male line around 1307 and the continuation of the new male line after a Macedonian-style 'hiatus' for 21 years (1307-1328).)
At the top of the list we have someone obvious;
So, as a bit of an interesting 'update' of sorts, I'm going to go into the next 3 generations of the Grypas Dynasty and their most notable members (I've worked on a family tree going as far as 1434, with the death of the male line around 1307 and the continuation of the new male line after a Macedonian-style 'hiatus' for 21 years (1307-1328).)
At the top of the list we have someone obvious;
- Romanos V himself; the progenitor of the 'Imperial' Grypas line. If I was to boil him down to his inspirations it'd be Alexios I Komnenos and Basil II Macedonian; with Romanos embodying Alexios' skilled efforts to restore Imperial Power and Prestige through skilled diplomacy, campaigning and sheer will--and the one part of Basil II that people seem to disregard; he was 'boring'. Historically Basil II's reign cuts out heavily following the Civil War during his early reign; this is due to the fact that he was skilled enough as an Emperor that the historians simply didn't have much to write about in the way of mishaps or major efforts; it was mundane normality save the short, yearly, campaigning Basil II took against the Bulgars--with the histories only picking back up when Basil began to crush the Bulgarians. This is the idea I had for Romanos; an energetic entranceway that gives way into a 'peaceful' period of 10-15 years near the end where there isn't much to write about. His reign is, roughly, 31 years long in total; with his shrewd wife, Maria Komnene living well-past Romanos' own end.
- John III is Romanos' first-born child, being 'Born in the Purple' within the Birthing Chambers of the Great Palace. He very much embodies knowledge over brutality; which is an interesting direction I thought of taking him in considering the fact that Romanos as a father tried to embody both, but John only took to the one. John is the classic 'Great, but not Peak' Emperor; with his younger brother, Theodore doing most of the heavy lifting militarily for the Empire and his younger sister, Sophia serving as the bridge of diplomacy. It is during John III's reign that the Empire's Senate would begin to be slowly empowered to accommodate the Astithematic System created by Romanos, and utterly fine-tuned by John.
- Dragases I (named for our OTL Constantine XI's middle name) is an example of a 'Peak' military Emperor; having being tutored by his uncle Theodore rather than his always micromanaging, and thus busy, father. Dragases would take the throne following a minor period of instability where the Doukas family would attempt to worm its way back into power; with Dragases forced to rely on his uncle and aunt for support during his first half-decade (Theodore notably marrying the kind and humble Maria Doukaina, which would produce the second line of the family that would eventually gain the throne when the original line died out with Dragases). Dragases would then take the reigns, and crush the last vestiges of noble power in order to rally the nation behind him to take all of Anatolia. He would be a cunning, and downright brutal, Emperor--effectively putting in the deathblows of Turkish Anatolia. Behind all this though he was deeply emotional, lacking the urgency to divorce his wife Maria after they failed to conceive any children in what would be a 60 year marriage. To fight off issues of succession he would end up adopting Michael Grypas Laskaris, grandson of Theodore, as his heir in his last 5 years--but this would not come to pass functionally as by the time Dragases died Michael was only 5 years old; putting a 'hiatus' to Grypas power for the next 20 years.
- Michael VIII; the 20 year 'hiatus' would be through, first, Alexios IV Laskaris, husband of Michael's mother Theodora Grypas, and later Andronikos II Palaiologos--Theodora's second husband. Both Emperor's were competent, with Andronikos II notably firmly cementing Roman Anatolia through skilled policing and rebuilding edicts. However, throughout all this Michael was mostly sidelined as a tool of power by the two Emperors; only able to later grasp at power due to his education under his mother, who wanted to return the Grypads to the throne. This would become a reality when the 25 year old Michael VIII took the vestiges of power from his dying step-father in 1328. Due to his upbringing Michael was regularly underestimated during his early reign--with plots surfacing regularly within his first decade. He would earn his epitaph; "Psithyristís", or "Whisperer" through the quick and sudden ends to these plots by the disappearances of their conspirators. Michael's measured, almost cynical demeanor, would see Roman power cement over it's effective 'Known World' peak; holding the Southern Balkans, South Crimea, Anatolia and northern Syria--as well as having vassals such as a reborn Armenia, and the Ottoman-Turkish Emirate of Aleppo (later known as Ottoman Sultanate of Syria).
Following Michael VIII's reign are some events I've planned out, but in effect the Empire will retain relations with its vassals, in one way or another, as far as I can get the timeline to go. Added to this, the Empire won't ever extend to its Pre-Islamic borders in sheer scope, but making use of vassals is never out of the question.
But, as a little breadcrumb, what we'd consider today as the Suez Canal will have a part to play in Roman efforts in the 16th to 17th centuries.
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