The Age of the Elephant - A World Without Islam

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
And to avoid the end-of-the-page curse, there was an update on the Turks at the bottom of Page 2:

This one took a while because I'm not terribly knowledgeable about Central Asian history, but on with the show:


Are we going to witness the Gokturks as the Turkic "Russia" in TL? And Nestorian Christian as well, you don't see that everyday.

That's more or less the plan, yes. I pondered having them turn south and conquer China instead, a la Mongols, but I decided that I had better plans in store for China further down the line. :)
 
So does this mean that the Gokturks would gain Siberia and probably the areas of northern Russia, or would they leave that to the Viking raiders? What is the Gokturkic writing script?
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
So does this mean that the Gokturks would gain Siberia and probably the areas of northern Russia, or would they leave that to the Viking raiders? What is the Gokturkic writing script?

I'm not certain what to do with the Vikings just yet, but the Turks will expand to include most of OTL Russia and Siberia. As for the alphabet, the Old Turkic script was in use as of the 8th Century, and it seems possible that it was already in use in the late 6th Century.
 
I guess the Old Turkic script can be a good script for translating the Nestorian bible from Greek, Hebrew or Latin (or even Aramaic) into Old Turkic. Would the Gokturks remain as one nation, or are they going to split apart at some point?
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
I guess the Old Turkic script can be a good script for translating the Nestorian bible from Greek, Hebrew or Latin (or even Aramaic) into Old Turkic. Would the Gokturks remain as one nation, or are they going to split apart at some point?

Well, on the map series I worked on before I started the TL proper, I had them rule OTL Russia, Persia, and the Caucasus until the 20th Century, whereafter they split in a manner similar to the OTL Soviet Union (a large Turkic state remained centered on Central Asia while smaller Turkic and Turkicized nations splintered off). I'm not sure if I'm going to go the same route here, but I plan to have the Göktürks remain a going concern in Eurasia for at least several centuries to come.
 
Forgive me when I say I'm not very familiar with this era, but historically what was it that stopped Christianity moving east in one form or another? I mean it got to the ends of Europe (with help) I feel as though most of Persia or parts of India would be Nestorian with out the help the Romans gave it.
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
Forgive me when I say I'm not very familiar with this era, but historically what was it that stopped Christianity moving east in one form or another? I mean it got to the ends of Europe (with help) I feel as though most of Persia or parts of India would be Nestorian with out the help the Romans gave it.

Well, historically, Nestorian Christian communities have existed in India since the First Century, a fact which eventually I plan to touch upon, and Nestorianism was also marginally present in parts of China a couple centuries later. It died out in the latter due to Tang-era prosecution, but that may go differently with a significant Nestorian power near China's borders.
 
I wonder if Tiberius II Constantine could have a much longer and prosperous reign than OTL, given that...

A Latin speaker,[3] Tiberius was reportedly tall and handsome and possessed a regal bearing. He was gentle and humane, both as a man and a ruler, with a reputation for generosity. Unlike his predecessor, he largely refrained from persecuting his Monophysite subjects,[23] although his Arian subjects in the west did not fare as well.[24] He also spent a good deal of money on building projects, most notably the continued expansion of the Great Palace of Constantinople.[18]
According to Edward Gibbon, Tiberius II was a good emperor:
With the odious name of Tiberius, he assumed the more popular appellation of Constantine, and imitated the purer virtues of the Antonines. After recording the vice or folly of so many Roman princes, it is pleasing to repose, for a moment, on a character conspicuous by the qualities of humanity, justice, temperance, and fortitude; to contemplate a sovereign affable in his palace, pious in the church, impartial on the seat of judgment, and victorious, at least by his generals, in the Persian war. The most glorious trophy of his victory consisted in a multitude of captives, whom Tiberius entertained, redeemed, and dismissed to their native homes with the charitable spirit of a Christian hero. The merit or misfortunes of his own subjects had a dearer claim to his beneficence, and he measured his bounty not so much by their expectations as by his own dignity. This maxim, however dangerous in a trustee of the public wealth, was balanced by a principle of humanity and justice, which taught him to abhor, as of the basest alloy, the gold that was extracted from the tears of the people. For their relief, as often as they had suffered by natural or hostile calamities, he was impatient to remit the arrears of the past, or the demands of future taxes: he sternly rejected the servile offerings of his ministers, which were compensated by tenfold oppression; and the wise and equitable laws of Tiberius excited the praise and regret of succeeding times. Constantinople believed that the emperor had discovered a treasure: but his genuine treasure consisted in the practice of liberal economy, and the contempt of all vain and superfluous expense. The Romans of the East would have been happy, if the best gift of Heaven, a patriot king, had been confirmed as a proper and permanent blessing. But in less than four years after the death of Justin, his worthy successor sunk into a mortal disease, which left him only sufficient time to restore the diadem, according to the tenure by which he held it, to the most deserving of his fellow-citizens.
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
Most likely, since it seems he died of food poisoning (of one kind or the other). Either way, the Empire is going to end up split in half again eventually.
 
At this point it looks like we're going to see a Coptic Arabia (or at least a Coptic South Arabia). This will be a major departure ITTL. The Byzantines won't be able to leave the Copts alone ITTL now because they are Monophysite (believing that Jesus is only a man --Monophysite--one nature--and therefore heretics. But the Red Sea region is a hard area to conquer for Romans, East or West. Should be interesting.

You have it backwards. Monophysites believed that Christ only had a single nature and that nature was divine.
 
According to what few sources can be gleaned from Arabia during this period, a man named Abraha was the Aksumite viceroy of the region of Yemen at the time. Abraha seems to have taken offense to the pagan tribes to the northwest of his holdings, vowing to show the supremacy of the Christian faith over their 'heathen' ways, once and for all. To this end, he guided a small army into the Hedjaz, intending to march upon the city of Makka, and its shrine, called the Kaaba. Despite the best efforts of the Arab tribes of the area to halt the progress of the Yemeni and Aksumite forces, Abraha eventually reached Mekka. With the help of a war elephant (or two) [2], the Kaaba, a central holy place of the traditional Arabian religion, was demolished, and the city sacked. The Quraysh tribe, which had been the designated protectors of the shrine, was especially devastated.

With their goal accomplished, Abraha and his men continued to raid the region for another few months, placing Aksumite officials in positions of authority over the important cities of Mekka and Yathrib before returning to Yemen. Ethiopian influence over the Arabian peninsula had grown almost overnight, and would only continue to affect the region more and more in the coming years. To outside observers of this history, it cannot be known whether this event precluded the birth of a person we would know as Muhammad, whether he died during the raids of the Aksumites, or whether he simply lived his life out in obscurity.

Interesting timeline here. A question though; I know wikipedia says otherwise, but unless there has been a revision in the historical interpretation since Stuart Munro-Hay published in 1991, Abreha was not a Viceroy of Aksum, but rather a usurper who overthrew Sumyafa Ashwa, the Ethiopian Viceroy, in 525 CE. That can be retconned easily enough, depending on how much depth you want to go into Ethiopian history. I guess the easiest fix would just be to change all mentions of Abreha to Sumyafa Ashwa.

Or not. Do as you like, I just thought I'd point that out. :)
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
Is that so? I guess we can just chalk it up to "lost to history", since the conqueror of Mecca in this TL has little relevance after the initial POD. Thanks for the PDF, by the way. That'll come in handy since I've had trouble looking for good sources on Aksum. :)
 
Fascinating start. It'll be interesting to see all the butterflies in SE Asia as Buddhism and Hinduism continue their slow struggle in that region, uninterrupted by the appearance of Islam.

And with Aksum significantly stronger, what effect will that have on the East African coast? How will the Swahili city-states develop?

Cheers,
Ganesha
 

Huehuecoyotl

Monthly Donor
Fascinating start. It'll be interesting to see all the butterflies in SE Asia as Buddhism and Hinduism continue their slow struggle in that region, uninterrupted by the appearance of Islam.

And with Aksum significantly stronger, what effect will that have on the East African coast? How will the Swahili city-states develop?

Cheers,
Ganesha

Aksum will certainly have an even stronger hold on the Indian Ocean trade as its power in Arabia grows. It may well expand its influence, direct or no, down the eastern coast of Africa. I definitely intend for the Aksumites to extend the reach of Ethiopian Christianity to the region, as Muslim traders did with Islam IOTL.
 
My first thought is that without Islam there would be no Crusaides (please excuse my spelling). Eliminating The Crusaides will mean a very big change in the politics of Europe, The Holy Lands and Middle East, of The Roman Catholic Church, of religion in general.

The countries of Europe, The Catholic Church would all have been focusing their energies into other things. The Church would I'm sure have been looking to expand Christianity into new areas such as the Far East maybe. For the European countries maybe an earlier beginning to The Age Of Exploration. In TTL I wonder how Judaism and The Jewish People would have done?

I do feel that if there had been no Islam there would have been no Crusaides and if you eliminate The Crusaides you will change a lot of things in a very big way.
 
I have some problems with the Gökturks. Not that they turn Nestorian - the Steppe nomads typically adapted to the city-dweller cultures they conquered and also took over their religion. My problem is the Gökturks surviving as a nation/state this long. IOTL, steppe warrior nations came, conquered, built dynasties, and then faded into obscurity. There must be something special about the Gökturks ITTL.
 
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