First of all, thank you all for your lovely responses to my latest update! Your enthusiasm always astounds me. And now, as always, for my responses to your replies:
I'm really liking that alt-
Star Wars, Brainbin.
Makes me wish to see it.
Thank you, Dan! As with many 1970s films ITTL so far, it seems to be more pretentious than IOTL, so bear that in mind
In OTL several things that helped make Star Wars so great were the musical score and the sound effects. Rather than just use the sound library, the sound gurus of Star Wars went out of their way to find new and unusual sound effects, like taping Lion roars for Chewie. John Williams score needs no discussion to establish its importance. So how were sound and music in JOTF?
This is the problem with a written timeline. Not to
in any way impugn the work of John Williams, nor Ben Burtt; but for obvious reasons it would be
extremely difficult to describe the audio of
Journey of the Force (particularly how it differs from that of
Star Wars IOTL) without doing so in highly technical terms. And being neither a musician nor an audio engineer, that is unfortunately beyond my expertise. (I
did mention the music in
Star Trek, true, but that's more to give credit where credit is due.)
Asharella said:
Were there people standing in line for hours and seeing JOTF over a hundred times?
But of course!
Asharella said:
In OTL there was another film in the same time period that was really one man's vision who had to fight for it and which made him enormous and which created a plethora of sequels and also used music. I'm talking about Rocky. So? What's the story in TTL?
We'll revisit films in the 1970s once again as the decade draws to a close, and we may get an answer to your question at that point.
Asharella said:
Thinking about Stallone almost requires one to think about Arnold too. So will the Governator break out in TTL in the 80s like he did in OTL?
(shakes Magic 8-Ball) "Ask again later"
Asharella said:
DARTH VADER????????!!!!!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!!!??????
Who?
Nice update. You have played with several of the rejected early ideas from OTL mentioned in the Star Wars scriptbooks, but some people may be surprised to find this is actually a relatively conservative treatment (one early script had Han Solo as a reptilian alien and Leia never appearing after the first scene for goodness sake).
Thanks for the kind words, Thande! Yes, I wanted the same basic story structure as IOTL, largely because (as we all know)
Star Wars developed largely by committee, and Lucas would have (and did!) consult all the same people ITTL that he did IOTL, which would naturally have a similar result. Casting is so often a matter of being in the right place at the right time, though, and with a POD over one decade in the past by this point, it's harder to justify keeping the OTL cast (especially given how young Hamill and especially Fisher were at the time). The different actors, of course, inform the portrayals of the characters differently, as well they should.
Yet another great update. It looks like Elstree is going to be the real loser ITTL, having missed out on the Muppets and Star Wars. OK, that's actually two seperate Elstree studios, but it looks like the British film industry is going to be in an even worse situation ITTL than OTL.
Thank you, Nigel! You raise an excellent point, of course, and we'll have to see how those studios will adapt to the lean years.
NCW8 said:
Bluhdorn must be quietly seething that Desilu is having such a large role in the production of his epic. He obviously doesn't have a choice, but it could be another factor in why he was negative about the film while it was being made and why he screwed Lucas as much as he did.
It's funny how I originally envisioned George Schlatter to be the logical nemesis to That Wacky Redhead, given how their epic confrontation over the Monday 7:30 slot in 1969 was such a pivotal moment; but in many ways, Bluhdorn fits the bill
so much better, right down to being introduced in the first proper update.
The Star Wars update was amazing. (One wonders if they'd do the PSAs as they did OTL.)
Thanks, Orville_third! Everybody did public service announcements back then, so it's probably a safe bet. (Also: don't smoke.)
Fascinating and interesting to think of the film with totally different stars.
Thank you, Steve - but do you find it
intriguing?
"Remember kids! The
Journey of the Force Christmas Special - Just say No."
Especially if Bruce freaking Vilanch is involved. (He's like a black hole of talent.)
Damn brainbin! You really turned things upside down. Need the Best Pictures for 1975, 1976, and 1977, as well as other Oscar winners in those years.
Well, we wouldn't want to be
just like OTL, now would we?
One minor correction: I've actually announced the Best Picture for one of those three years, though
which one depends on how you count. If we go by the year in which the Oscar is awarded, then
Chinatown won in 1975. If we go by the year which is being recognized, then
Journey of the Force won for 1977. Two Best Pictures have yet to be named: 1975/76, and 1976/77.
It sure is! If that's not a sign as to how perfect NCC-1911 is for the
Excelsior, I don't know what is. (Though I doubt that would carry much weight with the Puritans ITTL.)
Because color TV is boss, and they wanted to make sure you felt you were getting your money's worth for buying one, basically.
One must remember how much of a driving imperative this was in the late-1960s,
especially (as noted) on NBC shows (due to that network being owned by RCA).
Thank you for the kind words, phx
phx1138 said:
Aside: it makes me wonder what Marcia Lucas would have been doing, where she'd have ended up, without George...
e of pi and I are both in agreement that she would have eked out a reasonably successful career without hitching herself to George's wagon.
phx1138 said:
Knowing the theme to "GAH", that's either really, really cool, or the worst pun I've heard in months.
I can't decide which.
Why not both?
phx1138 said:
OK, I like him, but--"greatness"?
Hey, I happen to like Bogart types, all right?
phx1138 said:
Kurt Russell is really interesting casting, tho. (Like him, too.
) I've never seen him to something light, but dramatic, myself, so no comment on him as Solo.
I would recommend
Big Trouble in Little China, which I'm told is an excellent light action-adventure film in the classic 1980s vein.
phx1138 said:
Hey, lots of people love Jodie Foster.
phx1138 said:
That's a "Wild Bunch" touch. Nicely done.
Thank you! I thought it would be nice for one of those old-school Chinese-American actors to get their due.
phx1138 said:
For who? George?
Evidently undeserving.
Note that he didn't win
phx1138 said:
Which is to say, "director as sole creator"?
Indeed so. Most New Hollywood types venerated the
auteur theory, for obvious reasons.. which also helps to explain that movement's demise.
phx1138 said:
BTW, I had no idea she played such a big role in how the story got told.
Thx for that.
My pleasure. Spreading the word about underrated contributors to popular culture has always been a fundamental objective of mine in writing this timeline. What's unfortunate about Marcia IOTL is that, due to her bitter divorce from George and subsequent seclusion, she's effectively being whitewashed from history.
Check out the link of the casting footage--the dialogue is astoundingly rough, but that's what we used to decide they could pull it off.
Both of them, in fact. I didn't think much of William Katt beforehand (not enough
GAH in my formative years, I guess), but he
really acquits himself well in that footage.
e of pi said:
Outside of these two seasons, we also see USS Defiant lost with all hands in season three IOTL, though I cannot recall if Brainbin hasn't said if "The Tholian Web" is butterflied (I hope not, it's one of my favorites).
"The Tholian Web" does indeed exist in substantially the same form as IOTL (and it's my favourite episode of season three, actually). With Coon as Producer and a higher overall budget, there
will be changes, but they'll all be for the better. And even IOTL, the effects were quite good, and the character interaction was definitely top-notch.
e of pi said:
Well, Enterprise is about as far from canon ITTL as it's possible to be--it's about 35 years after the PoD, and it's based on decades worth of canon that won't exist ITTL--not likely to be a TNG quite as we know it, nor DS9, nor VOY, so certainly not ENT. Anyway, if new members have existing "blue water" ships, what I'd say is that based on their relative strength, they'd either be commissioned into Starfleet (if they're roughly at tech parity, or can easily be made to be) or otherwise make them the core of the new member's "system guard."
This bears repeated emphasis - any part of the OTL
Star Trek franchise beyond TAS and the planned
Phase II spinoff (both of which involved much of the original production staff, and both of which were mined by myself to fill out the final seasons of
Star Trek ITTL) is
completely irrelevant as to the development of fanon
or of any canon evidence with regards to Starfleet technology, hierarchy, nomenclature, and/or organization. This is just how things
really were back in the 1970s IOTL.
In other words, such discussions are really best taken to PM. Thank you all very much for your understanding
Great update! Hmm, between a far more successful Star Trek and a Star Wars that seems to be even more successful than OTL as well, special effects have got to be going places. What's Douglas Trumbull up to at this time? He's easily one of the best special effects supervisors around, and would have gone a lot farther were it not for his self-imposed exile from Hollywood...
Thanks for the compliment, vultan! And an excellent question, to boot. One that should be answered in due time...
vultan said:
Also, I wonder if Desilu (or anyone) has any desire to approach computer effects earlier than OTL. With all the other associated special effects technologies further along...
Computers? Those are for those newfangled video game machines. And since Desilu has a stake in Syzygy, they would divert anyone with any talent in that arena to them, and keep the non-concrete visuals to the practical effects wizards at their post-production house - the best in the business, after all.
Ah, clearly you're working off the OTL screenshots.
This is what they see ITTL:
The same labels are re-arranged from the Enteprise AMT model, but they're a little more careful in what they re-arrange
to.
I'd just like to add that
e of pi did this photomanipulation job himself, at my request, after we both agreed that 1017 was ridiculous and that 1710 made far more sense.
Brainbin, casting William Katt as Skywalker is genius, except, of course, that you've killed yet another of my favorite TV shows from my childhood in The Greatest American Hero!
Believe it or not!
Andrew T said:
I loved the focus on Marcia; that's the sort of research and deep thinking that really makes this timeline one of the very best anywhere. (If I could stuff the Turtledove ballot boxes over the next 12 hours, I would!)
Thank you so much for your kind words, and I'm glad that you reacted so positively! I was intrigued by Marcia Lucas from the very first time I'd heard about her, and I thought that focusing on her perspective, rather than that of her husband, would be a fresh take on the old "making of
Star Wars" chestnut.
Andrew T said:
(If I could stuff the Turtledove ballot boxes over the next 12 hours, I would!)
Well, there's always next year
I never understood why they didn't do that. Even if you're not really thinking about the background to it, it just seems like you would want a number close to the Enterprise's.
I completely agree; making the number closer also enhances the "this could be the
Enterprise" effect, ratcheting up the tension.
Unless they wanted a number distinctively different from the Enterprise's so that viewers wouldn't confuse the two ships.
The extensive damage to the
Constellation is visible in every shot of the crippled ship, and in fact we rarely get a clear view of the hull registry outside of the opening shots (to establish that This Is Not The
Enterprise, But It Could Be). Also in that opening shot, context makes clear that this ship is the derelict which the
Enterprise is approaching.
There's also
Court Martial in season 1 where a number of crewmen in the bar on Starbase 11 are shown wearing Enterprise insignia, in spite of the fact that most if not all of them would be from other ships.
Great catch, Nigel! And not particularly justified, either, considering the established starburst "Starfleet Command" patch worn by the Commodore.
Anyway, I wanted to just thank Brainbin for letting me help with this update.
And I wanted to thank you for helping! Thank you. Seriously, you guys, he contributed
a lot to this past update, despite his modesty.
e of pi said:
Basically, he linked me that article on Marcia Lucas when he discussed what he wanted to draw on for this, and I...kind of hounded him until he let me toss in a few ideas.
In a way it gave me confidence that my choice to have Marcia Lucas as a featured character was a good one, because he
really took to it.
e of pi said:
That said, it was a really fun experience and made a nice change from working on Eyes, and I wanted to do a bit of "editor's commentary" on this. Here's a few of the things I thought were really important in this update:
And I will now
link you to his post, now on the previous page, because its contents are Very Important. You might want to read through it.
All that said, and as should now be reasonably clear: as a general rule, when
e of pi claims to be speaking for this timeline, you can assume that he has my authorization to do so, unless I explicitly state otherwise. But he might also choose to comment just to speculate about things (because I don't tell him
everything, after all).
More to Come soon! Perhaps tomorrow. February should be a good month, as well as a short one