At the very least, I imagine that as we’d discussed before you’d see a LOT more Black Catholics due to endeavors like this, and that could have a big impact in places like, say, Boston or Chicago

Agreed - especially if the Venerabal Augustine Tolten has longer and happier life in the Cinqo-verse. He passed away relatively early at the age of 43 in 1897, in Chicago. If his health stays stronger, and he receives more support, I could see his parish becoming much larger and influential in Chicago. Come the GAW, he would probably become a much more public figure (especially as his relation with Ireland were good, though the later did have a tendency of viewing Tolten as not vigorous enough). Assuming that some growing up in his parish also went into the priesthood, you likely see a cadre of African-American priests already active directly before and after the war, and ready to minister to the needs of the newly arrived Freedman as well as converts from more established Black communities in the US.

Which WOULD make a rather fascinating few entries to see ;)
 
Thinking about this during a webinar...if there's no Great American War at all when (if?) does the Confederacy finally abolish de jure slavery?

Let's say both sides use any of the potential off-ramps to the war that our author outlined in Bound for Bloodshed and the various crises of the late 1900s/early 1910s either don't happen or are resolved before war is declared. While the two countries may not like each other, there's peace.

In that scenario, if/when does the CSA outlaw slavery? I'm firmly of the belief that even in such a world de facto slavery would still exist even if it was legally abolished (see: OTL Mauritania for a similar example) but I'm only asking for a date as to when people think the CSA would legally abolish slavery in a world where there's no GAW.
 
In regards to Black Catholics, what about the ones in the CSA? When will Black Catholic Priests be allowed in the CSA? Note, I'd guess the center of the question here is New Orleans, were there Catholic Priests pre-civil war among the Octoroons/Quadroons?
 
In regards to Black Catholics, what about the ones in the CSA? When will Black Catholic Priests be allowed in the CSA? Note, I'd guess the center of the question here is New Orleans, were there Catholic Priests pre-civil war among the Octoroons/Quadroons?

As best as I can tell, no. Tolten was the first Catholic priest in the United States that didn't pass. There were a series of African-American brothers who rose to levels of import in the Catholic Church pre and post war - the Healeys. One would serve as the second bishop of Portland, Maine, another would become the president of Georgetown University, and a number of other served in other roles. Really fascinating family.

But they were light skinned and passed; there is mixed information of whether they acknowledged their black ancestry or not, or tried to keep it secret.

As best as I can tell, they were the first recognized (not widely, til after thier deaths) African-American priests in the United States. I'm sure that there were more - especially down in Louisiana, and the gulf region, but it would seem that they passed and their heritage went unrecorded at the time. So we don't see black priests in the US, officially, until the 1850s or so.

As for the Confederacy ... that's a good question. The Confederates weren't exactly opposed to educating their slaves in religion; it fit their paternalistic ideology. And I do believe (though I could be wrong) that there were Black protestant clergy members prior to the Civil War. So my guess is that, legally, they would not be opposed to blac priests, ministers or other members of the clergy - but being trained in the ministry takes a fair bit of resources (plus finding a school willing to accept and train you) so I suspect they may be pretty thin on the ground.
 
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So "some damned thing with the Belgians" eh?
I just realized that Africa south of the Sahara is going to have a *least* OTL WWI level fighting in it.

Is it too late to put in "Exiled to the Belgian Congo and put to work harvesting Rubber" as an option for Stephane Clement post war?

And I also request that TTLs term for Napalm is "Brazilian Wax". (Napalm as a term comes from "The name is a portmanteau of two of the constituents of the original thickening and gelling agents: coprecipitated aluminium salts of naphthenic acid and palmitic acid.")
 
Thinking about this during a webinar...if there's no Great American War at all when (if?) does the Confederacy finally abolish de jure slavery?

Let's say both sides use any of the potential off-ramps to the war that our author outlined in Bound for Bloodshed and the various crises of the late 1900s/early 1910s either don't happen or are resolved before war is declared. While the two countries may not like each other, there's peace.

In that scenario, if/when does the CSA outlaw slavery? I'm firmly of the belief that even in such a world de facto slavery would still exist even if it was legally abolished (see: OTL Mauritania for a similar example) but I'm only asking for a date as to when people think the CSA would legally abolish slavery in a world where there's no GAW.
This is a tough one to answer. I feel like this is a common question in "Victorious CSA" scenarios (for obvious, fundamental reasons!) that gets a really wide spectrum of answers. There's optimists who think Dixie would eventually take the Brazil glide path with some kind of Free Birth Law, and then pessimists who think we have de jure slavery deep into, say, the 1950s.

I'd land somewhere in between. I think the idea that other countries would "refuse to work with the South" over slavery is a bit naive considering how much the West handwaved Chinese labor conditions 1990-2020 as long as they got their cheap consumer goods. But I do think that the collapse of southern smallholders as a class with a vested interest in slavery and Slave Power's dependence on unlimited expansion to keep the grist for the mill going even at the height of the cotton boom would eventually make slavery an economic deadweight that would dwindle, as it did starting around 1900 ITTL, until its support was entirely cultural rather than economic. That said, its support being cultural rather than economic might actually make it more tough to excise; Brazil after all did not have the same kind of emotional attachment to slavery as being the civilizational keystone of an entire culture ala Dixie.
So "some damned thing with the Belgians" eh?
Bingo!
I just realized that Africa south of the Sahara is going to have a *least* OTL WWI level fighting in it.

Is it too late to put in "Exiled to the Belgian Congo and put to work harvesting Rubber" as an option for Stephane Clement post war?

And I also request that TTLs term for Napalm is "Brazilian Wax". (Napalm as a term comes from "The name is a portmanteau of two of the constituents of the original thickening and gelling agents: coprecipitated aluminium salts of naphthenic acid and palmitic acid.")
I placed Lettow-Vorbeck in German Angola (a good enough name for that area for now) for a reason!
 
Basically the idea, yeah. Francafrique inspired, for better or worse
Not very encouraging, then. Tho the fact that Lettow-Vorbeck is well-regarded at least in some areas does seem to point to some sort of nostalgia of the colonial period, and could mean the Germans did well in at least some areas or managed to ethnically cleanse enough natives for such areas to be basically German.
 
Not very encouraging, then. Tho the fact that Lettow-Vorbeck is well-regarded at least in some areas does seem to point to some sort of nostalgia of the colonial period, and could mean the Germans did well in at least some areas or managed to ethnically cleanse enough natives for such areas to be basically German.
It was definitely not meant to be encouraging, and if that’s not bleak enough for you, Germany won’t be the worst offender in African colonies, either.
 
It was definitely not meant to be encouraging, and if that’s not bleak enough for you, Germany won’t be the worst offender in African colonies, either.
I asked this before and you also replied, but, I want to reiterate that this should be the perfect time to look into how post malcom-jagow pink map is administered.
For Germany I assume there would be a German Angola (Angola + Namibia),
German Barotseland(Barotseland),
And German Katanga(Katanga)
as separate Colonies.
Britain would probably Form a CEF including rest of Zambia and Zimbawe.
Separate Malawi into Nyasaland and split Mozambique into two along zambezi river into gazaland and mozambique.
 

Indiana Beach Crow

Monthly Donor
[2] Of course, he also 100% participated in the genocide of the Herero people (and possibly the Moros ITTL what with the German possession of Mindanao), so let's not romanticize him too much
We don't have to romanticize him, that's definitely true.

However, it's still really funny that in OTL when Hitler tried to give Lettow-Vorbeck a job as ambassador to the United Kingdom in the 1930's, Lettow-Vorbeck told Hitler to go fuck himself and walked out of his office.
 
Not that it is right now, either *points at the Congo*
A fair and unfortunate point!
I asked this before and you also replied, but, I want to reiterate that this should be the perfect time to look into how post malcom-jagow pink map is administered.
For Germany I assume there would be a German Angola (Angola + Namibia),
German Barotseland(Barotseland),
And German Katanga(Katanga)
as separate Colonies.
Britain would probably Form a CEF including rest of Zambia and Zimbawe.
Separate Malawi into Nyasaland and split Mozambique into two along zambezi river into gazaland and mozambique.
I agree with the idea that Germany would want to divvy up her African holdings into more manageable units; this probably would be how they’d do them, though I’m not sure when the name Namibia came into vogue

I agree there’s unlikely to be any distinctive break between eastern Zambia and Zimbabwe here. Britain is definitely in an interesting position though in control of an uninterrupted territory stretching from the Somali border to Delagoa Bay
Oh boy fun times in Algeria with the French State ahoy
What’s a little genocidal apartheid between friends?
We don't have to romanticize him, that's definitely true.

However, it's still really funny that in OTL when Hitler tried to give Lettow-Vorbeck a job as ambassador to the United Kingdom in the 1930's, Lettow-Vorbeck told Hitler to go fuck himself and walked out of his office.
IIRC his son confirmed this story and added “but he wasn’t quite that polite”
 
View attachment 898193

In case anyone is interested, here is a list of all current USSC justices and their expected retirement dates as per OTL, a long with the parties appointing them and likely to replace them.

Taft's death during a Democratic term will definitely have a huge, huge impact on the Court, different as it is TTL already

Chief Justice Louis Brandeis[1]

Speaking of the US Supreme Court, I hope this legend is still going to be on the bench[2]
View attachment 898328

[1] I know it will cause a even more of a sh*tstorm than his appointment, but alt history and all of that
[2] Probably not going to be Chief Justice (Because he's complete assh*le) but you know... Cincoverse

Nah, it’ll be somebody else. But promoted from AJ to CJ, not “external hire”

OTL was appointed in 1939. Was considered to be FDR VP (more accurately next president) in 1944. Lasted until 1975 and is the longest serving justice on the court

I had him dying on schedule, which puts him on pace to die before Pershing comes along

Having looked at the names on the Supreme Court, and that you plan on "appointing from Associate Justice to Chief Justice", I think you will go with Clarke.

Clarke OTL was on the court from 1916 to 1922. He is a well known progressive. He resigned in the OTL because he watched Chief Justice White decline mentally and physically and also because McReynolds and him had disagreements. Plus family problems. He also didn't want to fade away/die on the Court

All three should be butterflied away in this TL.
White isn't on the Court. Taft is Chief Justice.
Either is McReynolds. Who is the ultimate Confederate.
And I don't think he necessarily has the same family problems.

Plus, a guy who resigns after 6 years, yet still lived for a further 20, and has a significantly better life in this ATL.
He also lives until 1945. An odd 15 years on the bench as the Chief Justice is not that bad, tbh. and the 30s are meant to be a progressive decade then he is certainly a good choice to have in Chief Justice chair.
plus he is certainly someone @KingSweden24 would pick in a TL like this. Not well known figures in OTL who become significant figures or IDOLS in this ATL, essentially

 
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Second Congo Crisis (Part I)
"...African borders existed on maps, and not on the ground; surveys were unreliable and often fudged in favor of whoever was sponsoring them, and African natives themselves had their own ideas about where boundaries began and ended depending on who you asked, often boiling down to tribal loyalties. The dispute essentially boiled down to something in the end unproveable: the Germans were adamant that the Force Publique had provoked Lettow-Vorbeck's askari scouts first and done it having crossed onto German land, while Belgium maintained that Germans had raided into the Free State and carried out a massacre there. Germans both at the time and German scholars today are universally adamant that the instinct of the Reich at this time was to deescalate and that diplomats said as much to Belgian leadership; this is believable mostly if one chooses to believe that it was indeed within German Katanga that the disputed skirmish occurred. No map exists to suggest it did or did not, and there was no way to carry out an investigation, especially once Lettow-Vorbeck decamped back to Benguela.

Could the Second Congo Crisis have been headed off there? Quite possibly. Colonial incidents occurred frequently, and not since the 1892 war scare over Siam had there been an event in either Africa or Asia that was thought to be bringing European Powers close to war; it was also generally thought that Belgium, being the small country it was, would seek the first exit from a highway to conflict it could. That the events of June and July of 1918 would lead to the eruption of war in March 1919 surprised perhaps few in hindsight - indeed, the summer of 1918 was sometimes called the "false start" or "war in sight" crisis because it looked like the trigger was close to being pulled then - but it took extra provocation, extra miscalculation, to take a murky and innocuous event in the deep heart of the Congo's dark jungles to push it to something more existential and epochal..."

- The Central European War

"...Heinrich trusted the assurances of not just Furstenburg but Solf and Lettow-Vorbeck's personal telegram that the attack had, quite clearly, occurred on German soil, and thus his response to Leopold III on June 26th was not one of apology but rather one of equivocation; he "regretted" the death of "officers of the Belgian crown" but noted that "the Congo is a dangerous part of the world, and it is understandable in such wild terrain how boundaries could be easily misconstrued." Leopold took chagrin to a number of things in such an otherwise innocuous missive, taking the "Belgian crown" comment to be a pointed commentary on the Free State being his personal possession to great controversy elsewhere in Europe and also taking Heinrich's benefit of the doubt that the Force Publique column had simply gotten lost as being sarcastic and goading.

Against the backdrop of this, Furstenburg - who normally prided himself on his cold and calculating reputation and took great pains never to say one more word than he had to - uncharacteristically inflamed things even more, two days later on June 28th, when while leaving the Prussian Herrenhaus he was asked directly about angry comments in Belgium about the brewing colonial crisis, including what had been understood as a direct rather than vague threat of retaliatory raids into Katanga by the notoriously volatile Prince Stephane Clement. Furstenburg, who hated the press and had been caught off guard by their presence, grunted nearly under this breath, "Whales do not concern themselves with the idle rantings of trout!" Furstenburg's defenders have spent nearly a century since arguing, vociferously, that this was specifically a comment directed at Stephane Clement, who was throughout Europe widely regarded as a vain, degenerate idiot who spent most of his time embarrassing his father to the point that he had spent most of his adult life in semi-exile overseas so as to not cause more salacious drama. Furstenburg himself noted this in interviews after the war; he was adamant that the comment, which was off the cuff, was meant to express his dismissal of Stephane Clement making threats that he was clearly in no position to make or back up. In such a reading of the infamous "German Insult," perhaps even Leopold III was one of Furstenburg's "whales;" a King who, for most of his life, had clearly given little shrift to what the worst of his sons thought or said.

To but it mildly, however, that was not how most people understood the comment, in Germany or elsewhere, especially Belgium. There, the comment was taken much more darkly - that Germany haughtily could have cared less what little Belgium thought, and that perhaps Brussels should learn its place. In the tense context of Belgium accusing Germany's commander-in-chief in Africa of carrying out raids into the Free State from behind the disputed boundaries of Katanga, it was understood to the Delacroix government in Brussels as well as the Belgian royal family to augur a future in which Germany frequently bullied Brussels in Africa, relying on its considerably larger population, economy and military to bring the "trout" to heel if it did not bow to the "whale," taking advantage of Belgium's treaty-bound neutrality to do so. While other European governments saw what Furstenburg saw as irresponsibly flippant, the Belgians saw something else - a promise of not just disrespect but escalation, all born from a glib remark made offhandedly to a gaggle of journalists..."

- Heinrich: The Life and Legacy of Germany's Goldkaiser

"...Poincaré himself did not charge Paleologue with pursuing rapprochement with Belgium, but neither did he discourage the Quai d'Orsay from accepting such if initiated elsewhere. The simple reality of the Second Congo Crisis of 1918 was that it was becoming increasingly clear to Paleologue and his ardently Germanophobic analysts and career civil servants who drove much of French policy that something was coming to a head in Africa. Belgium's position in the Congo had never been weaker, and its debt more unsustainable; the precedent of Britain and Germany divvying up Portugal's state holdings between themselves under the parameters of Malcolm-Jagow suggested an even easier French path to calling its considerable loans to Leopold III's personal holdings in the Congo. The near-collapse of the Free State in March had proved this; it was seen as increasingly inevitable in many corners in Paris that more was to come. The dispute thus became whether or not France would simply absorb the Congo for itself or support Belgium, and here there were a number of various viewpoints, the least belligerent of which were quickly silenced.

Poincaré's preference was to simply absorb the Belgian Congo before Germany could, but he was persuaded by the "Belgian Camp" and their line of thinking that a confrontation with Germany over central Africa was now inevitable; the raids of June 1918 suggested a future in which Germany would increasingly use Angola and Katanga as a base of operations to provoke and press against the Free State until it was stopped, perhaps with violence. Paleologue argued, quite credibly, that the end of Leopold III's personal control of the Free State was nigh; and due to the massive debt Leopold had accrued to French banks, France would have a choice in how this endgame played out. The instability of Belgian domestic politics over the previous several years, starting with the general strike of 1915 and recently proven with the disastrous spring elections just months earlier, suggested that France could not "rely" upon what Brussels might decide, and that Paris may instead have to "decide on their behalf."

This belligerent, self-important foreign policy to step into the brink on Belgium's behalf was not just a matter of Africa, of course. The Emperor's cousin and heir, Victor, was married to a Belgian princess; the Emperor's sister, Marie-Eugenie, was married to Leopold III's cousin, Baudouin, and had borne him six children, including three sons who had all survived infancy. The ties between royal houses in Paris and Brussels were thus much deeper than merely affinity and finance. It was also the case that the French press was virulently Germanophobic and took pride in its ability to agitate the French street over foreign policy matters, often as much of a mouthpiece for the Tuileries as a leading indicator, and in the summer of 1918 it did this with gusto. The Piquet Affair had already suggested a Germany intervening directly in the affairs of Belgium through Flamenpolitik, and it was easy to talk oneself backwards from this dubious conclusion into seeing the Congo Crisis as an extension of this expansionary and saber-rattling foreign policy; for Poincaré in particular, there was a curious symmetry between the accusations inherent in the Piquet Affair and the spiraling crises in Austria, similarly coming to a head in the crucial month of June 1918, and it all seemed to add up to one conclusion:

Germany had arrived at a point where she was confident in her grandest European and colonial schemes, and was making preparations to provoke a final settling conflict to achieve them. It was not just in France's interest to stand in her way - it was France's holy obligation to the world..."

- La Politique Mondiale: Poincaré, France and the Waltz of the Great Powers
 
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