This makes me wonder if Christianity will be seen as the biggest threat to global peace in later years, maybe even taking the place of Islam? Or maybe, with the events both in American and the Middle East, this'll spawn a whole new generation of militant atheists who consider religion the cause behind all of this. I could see whole armies of anti-religious extremists destroying all religious institutions and artifacts they can find. Maybe this could even lead to people seeing Christianity on par with Communism in OTL. Like a Jesus Scare, where people around the world fear that anything christian is the easy road to tyranny and violence.
Rumsfeldia: Fear and Loathing in the Decade of Tears
- Thread starter Drew
- Start date
- Status
This makes me wonder if Christianity will be seen as the biggest threat to global peace in later years, maybe even taking the place of Islam? Or maybe, with the events both in American and the Middle East, this'll spawn a whole new generation of militant atheists who consider religion the cause behind all of this. I could see whole armies of anti-religious extremists destroying all religious institutions and artifacts they can find. Maybe this could even lead to people seeing Christianity on par with Communism in OTL. Like a Jesus Scare, where people around the world fear that anything christian is the easy road to tyranny and violence.
I'm going to say no. Simply because the entire Western World is mostly Christian, and they don't want to tar themselves with the same brush. Happened with Germany; yes, racist utra-nationalism was to blame, but the Western Allies were also racist, nationalist states, so the failure had to be within Germany. They've since grown and realized the error of thinking that way, but the thinking stuck for a long time. It's easier than potentially pointing the blame at yourself. The same will happen here; people will blame the Americans for being too easily swayed by religion, if only to avoid thinking too hard about themselves. That too will pass, but the uncomfortable stereotype will persist quite a while.
But in light how a lot of people said Islam is the big threat to Western civilization and indeed humanity as a whole, it makes me chuckle.
Bookmark1995
Banned
The outcome is not necessarily the end of Christian faith, but instead an accelerated trend toward secularism in Western nations, especially in the United States.
The power of religious fanaticism to trash the United States will be a chilling lesson for years to come.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Basically, Drew used the TL to take Tea Party ideas to the woodshed, showing how horrible if a President "shrunk' the federal government.
Shrinking the federal government, curtailing regulations, letting Big Business go rampant... pretty much the idea of laissez-faire economy done poorly.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Calling Rumsfeldia "laissez faire" is a myth. Rummy happily used regulation against people who "weren't" his corporate backers, and spent the kitchen sink on wars no one asked for.
It was blatant cronyism of the highest order.
Okay, true. If there were really laissez-faire economy in place, he wouldn't be putting so many rules and regulations favoring the big companies. Let alone using Liberty Battalions to enforce said rules as corporate goons.
Bookmark1995
Banned
I can imagine Libertarians, while remaining true to the ideals of laissez-faire, would utterly reject cronyism. OTL, they dislike tax dollars being given to political cronies.
I'm not so sure-with the utter disaster that was Rummy's economic policy, even libertarians will have to acknowledge the necessity of SOME form of economic regulation.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Again, they could make the case that his economic policies were essentially "Republican Sovietism" by creating state-owned enterprises in all but name.
But again, their focus would be not toward de-regulation, but against the coddling of big business.
Btw, been thinking about the suicide bombers bit I talked about in a previous post, and the more I thought about it, the less sense it would make for the CVs to use them. See, it's a cultural thing; the societies that 'suicide attackers' arose from promote the community and the clan over the individual, whereas the US is a rather individualistic society, in the sense that its culture and media promote the individual and the 'frontier spirit'. Whether it be Japanese 'kamikaze' fighter pilots, Tamil suicide bombers, or Arab mujaheddin, there was an element of their society that promotes sacrifice for the group, and ideas that seem appealing to a would-be martyr. Reincarnation, the promise of Paradise, the faith in a higher religious figure, etc...
The USA generally has none of those, even to radical Christians. In fact, there seems to be an element of selfishness in US religion, particularly the Evangelical Christian crowd; if you're doing well, then God has blessed you, but if you're poor, then it must be your fault. As a result, this doesn't really encourage self-sacrifice and asceticism. While you're bound to have people who believe in God to the degree of the Iranian youths of the Iran-Iraq War (who used to run in burial shrouds and slippers across minefields because the Ayatollah told them it was a fast path to Heaven) almost anywhere, there's no real readiness to use them as organic smart bombs except in cases of extreme desperation. Though they seem to be willing to go through 'unfaithful' underlings the way a Bond villain goes through minions who have 'failed him'.
The USA generally has none of those, even to radical Christians. In fact, there seems to be an element of selfishness in US religion, particularly the Evangelical Christian crowd; if you're doing well, then God has blessed you, but if you're poor, then it must be your fault. As a result, this doesn't really encourage self-sacrifice and asceticism. While you're bound to have people who believe in God to the degree of the Iranian youths of the Iran-Iraq War (who used to run in burial shrouds and slippers across minefields because the Ayatollah told them it was a fast path to Heaven) almost anywhere, there's no real readiness to use them as organic smart bombs except in cases of extreme desperation. Though they seem to be willing to go through 'unfaithful' underlings the way a Bond villain goes through minions who have 'failed him'.
Bookmark1995
Banned
The USA generally has none of those, even to radical Christians. In fact, there seems to be an element of selfishness in US religion, particularly the Evangelical Christian crowd; if you're doing well, then God has blessed you, but if you're poor, then it must be your fault. As a result, this doesn't really encourage self-sacrifice and asceticism. While you're bound to have people who believe in God to the degree of the Iranian youths of the Iran-Iraq War (who used to run in burial shrouds and slippers across minefields because the Ayatollah told them it was a fast path to Heaven) almost anywhere, there's no real readiness to use them as organic smart bombs except in cases of extreme desperation. Though they seem to be willing to go through 'unfaithful' underlings the way a Bond villain goes through minions who have 'failed him'.
Is that really the essence of Evangelical Christianity? Poverty is for those who have no faith? Does that mean people who were born poor were damned to hell?
Damn, that is some medieval shit right there! I feel horrible for someone who actually does believe such poisonous nonsense.
One could argue that the corporations were the ones that owned the government.
Rumsfeldia is basically Vulgar Libertarianism in action.
I may have misquoted. It's not so much "the poor are damned to hell" as the idea that wealth and status are possibly signs of divine favor, something that dovetails nicely with the idea of prosperity and the American dream. The idea that the poor and jobless are "just lazy", something which has been repeatedly and brutally disproven but nonetheless continues to hold the belief of many, especially the rich elite, since it vindicates their lifestyle.
While I wouldn't say that American Christianity is like that, that pretty much covers it.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Yeah, I've heard of it, including the hilariously cutting John Oliver segment on tax exempt churches.
Thus, it wouldn't be really surprising to see the Evangelicals recreate slavery in their "moral decency centers?" After all, it is the lazy godless bums that are just making up for their sin and squalor, not the hard working billionaire endowed with faith? You can justify the horrible things you are doing to these poor people because you've convinced your followers that they are lazy.
Man, it really depresses me how easy it is for people to see other human beings as less then human.
Just some questions about what’s been covered in this timeline recently:
1. Do the CV’s and their movement have any sort of sympathising element among Protestant Evangelicals abroad? And are they treated as some sort of security threat in the wake of all that is going on? I’m thinking in particular of places with large evangelical populations, like South Korea and Latin America. The links between America and fundamentalist Protestants in Northern Ireland obviously existed with Rumsfeld before, I imagine they will only grow with the rise of the CV and with Ian Paisley in hiding in the US. Also American backing of Malan’s South Africa would probably undermine any potential support in African communities.
2. Several influential evangelicals in this period don’t seem to have cropped up in the story as far as I can tell. Billy Graham seems to have taken a strong stand against the CV regime, but what’s Jerry Falwell up to? Or James Robison (some of the rhetoric from his OTL speeches wouldn’t sound out of place in the CV led America of TTL)?
1. Do the CV’s and their movement have any sort of sympathising element among Protestant Evangelicals abroad? And are they treated as some sort of security threat in the wake of all that is going on? I’m thinking in particular of places with large evangelical populations, like South Korea and Latin America. The links between America and fundamentalist Protestants in Northern Ireland obviously existed with Rumsfeld before, I imagine they will only grow with the rise of the CV and with Ian Paisley in hiding in the US. Also American backing of Malan’s South Africa would probably undermine any potential support in African communities.
2. Several influential evangelicals in this period don’t seem to have cropped up in the story as far as I can tell. Billy Graham seems to have taken a strong stand against the CV regime, but what’s Jerry Falwell up to? Or James Robison (some of the rhetoric from his OTL speeches wouldn’t sound out of place in the CV led America of TTL)?
If there was any support from Evangelicals outside the USA/CSA, it probably evaporated when Coe & Friends broke out the nukes.
If they haven't been mentioned, then odds are that they've sided with Coe.
That’s actually kind of a relief. Is it wrong that I hope he gets through this timeline unscathed?
- Status