Yes. Elizabeth was bastardized by Richard, he's not going to risk his reputation by marrying a woman who is not only his niece but also illegitimate.You think that accusations that he wanted to do exactly that are slander?
Yes. Elizabeth was bastardized by Richard, he's not going to risk his reputation by marrying a woman who is not only his niece but also illegitimate.You think that accusations that he wanted to do exactly that are slander?
I have to agree with this hypothesis, it seems to me that Northumberland's troops were simply never able to engage. In fact, his contingent was probably the most loyal to Richard, being made up of northerners. So yeah, if Northumberland's heir is of the right age then there's no reason why Catherine couldn't marry there.Well if Richard won is likely who his father committed his troops on the battle (and his indecision is disputed as some historians believe who Northumberland’s men were simply unable to join the battle before Richard III’s death, for their placement behind the troops of the King. Northumberland had the command of the reserve and he was imprisoned by Henry VII, like Norfolk and Westmoreland so I think the latter hypothesis is pretty plausible for me)
What if Richard has a daughter with Joanna of Portugal around 1488/1489? Might she be offered and accepted instead? After all, a king's daughter is surely a more prestigious match than the king's niece, plus it puts James's descendants with her pretty high in the line of succession in England.Anne de la Pole was offered for James IV of Scotland and likely would be accepted here
The 5th Earl is born in January 1477 while Catherine of York is born in August 1479 so they are perfectly on ageI have to agree with this hypothesis, it seems to me that Northumberland's troops were simply never able to engage. In fact, his contingent was probably the most loyal to Richard, being made up of northerners. So yeah, if Northumberland's heir is of the right age then there's no reason why Catherine couldn't marry there.
Perhaps this is true then. Interesting.I have to agree with this hypothesis, it seems to me that Northumberland's troops were simply never able to engage. In fact, his contingent was probably the most loyal to Richard, being made up of northerners. So yeah, if Northumberland's heir is of the right age then there's no reason why Catherine couldn't marry there.
Well that would depend from the plans of both Richard and James about weddings. Also Joanna would likely marry Richard in 1486 when she is already 34 years old so is pretty unlikely who they will have many children. If they had just a son and a daughter, the girl would be likely married to Manuel and Elizabeth’s eldest sonWhat if Richard has a daughter with Joanna of Portugal around 1488/1489? Might she be offered and accepted instead? After all, a king's daughter is surely a more prestigious match than the king's niece, plus it puts James's descendants with her pretty high in the line of succession in England.
Better someone in which he has full trust and control for marrying Catherine of York, specially as he has other nieces to offer (Katherine de la Pole or Margaret of Clarence are better matches).Perhaps this is true then. Interesting.
But I think Richard oughta use this to drum up support in the south. He's controlled the north his whole life, and they are more or less loyal to him. If not Arundel, then another powerful (but not too powerful) earl will do.
Err, I'd say the opposite. Their son oughta end up marrying Manuel and Elizabeth's daughter IMO. Seems like a waste but this girl is senior to Richard's son according to Edwardian standards (who will no doubt be causing problems in England well after Richard's death), and can be used to heal the rift (if needed)Well that would depend from the plans of both Richard and James about weddings. Also Joanna would likely marry Richard in 1486 when she is already 34 years old so is pretty unlikely who they will have many children. If they had just a son and a daughter, the girl would be likely married to Manuel and Elizabeth’s eldest son
And why do you think Richard would be distrustful of Arundel ? And he has access to the royal desmense so it's not like he has nada control in the south.Better someone in which he has full trust and control for marrying Catherine of York, specially as he has other nieces to offer (Katherine de la Pole or Margaret of Clarence are better matches).
The exclusion of Margaret and her brother is much less controversial than the illegitimacy of Edward’s children. Pretty likely who Portugal and England would require another set of double matches then as Joanna’s children would be higher than Manuel in the succession of Portugal (and that is another problem to solve). If Richard can find an international match for Catherine de la Pole he will do it, that is sure...Err, I'd say the opposite. Their son oughta end up marrying Manuel and Elizabeth's daughter IMO. Seems like a waste but this girl is senior to Richard's son according to Edwardian standards (who will no doubt be causing problems in England well after Richard's death), and can be used to heal the rift (if needed)
And why do you think Richard would be distrustful of Arundel ? And he has access to the royal desmense so it's not like he has nada control in the south.
Catherine is better suited to an international match.
It isn't like Margaret isn't risky either.
Both give him a possible claim.The exclusion of Margaret and her brother is much less controversial than the illegitimacy of Edward’s children. Pretty likely who Portugal and England would require another set of double matches then as Joanna’s children would be higher than Manuel in the succession of Portugal (and that is another problem to solve). If Richard can find an international match for Catherine de la Pole he will do it, that is sure...
I never said who Richard would be distrustful of Arundel only who Northumberland is more trusted so more likely to get Catherine of York (if he want her for his heir, but likely he would want her)
Why wouldn't if Elizabeth have become Queen if she didn't have children? Was that stipulated in her marriage contract?Infanta Joanna was against marrying and her father was against forcing her but now the King is her brother who has only one child and likely little hope for another so would be inclined to pressure her to marry Richard III.
Elizabeth would marry Manuel and eventually become Queen of Portugal (unless Richard and Joanna had children), Cecily was already married and Anne engaged to Howard. Bridget was destined to the convent and Catherine would most likely made a wedding similar to Anne’s (so married at least to the heir of an Earl, close supporter of Richard III)
Because any child of Joanna would have a higher claim to Portugal than Manuel.Why wouldn't if Elizabeth have become Queen if she didn't have children? Was that stipulated in her marriage contract?
Because Joanna came before Manuel in the line of succession of Portugal.Why wouldn't if Elizabeth have become Queen if she didn't have children? Was that stipulated in her marriage contract?
A daughter of Alfonso of Portugal is a really bad idea... you have forgotten who was Alfonso‘s bride? Pretty unlikely who we would be able to get out easily from that mess... Another double match between England and Portugal is a better way to resolve things. In alternative keep Richard and Joanna childless and have Elizabeth and Manuel‘s eldest daughter marrying the heir of John de la PoleBoth give him a possible claim.
How about a surviving Afonso of Portugal who only has a daughter and said daughter marries Manuel's heir? That way the problem of succession of Portugal is butterflied and only a single match is needed.
Eh, you prefer Northumberland as Catherine's husband as a way of rewarding him, I prefer Arundel as a way of consolidating the South, fair enough. OP gets final say anyways.
So if Joanna had two sons would the eldest be King of England and the youngest King of Portugal?Because any child of Joanna would have a higher claim to Portugal than Manuel.
And nope.
No, the English would not get enough backing.So if Joanna had two sons would the eldest be King of England and the youngest King of Portugal?
I see the problem. I also see a solution. Have Juan of Asturias live and give Ferdinand and Isabella a second son (b. 1487) and have that kid live to adulthood.Because Joanna came before Manuel in the line of succession of Portugal.
A daughter of Alfonso of Portugal is a really bad idea... you have forgotten who was Alfonso‘s bride? Pretty unlikely who we would be able to get out easily from that mess... Another double match between England and Portugal is a better way to resolve things. In alternative keep Richard and Joanna childless and have Elizabeth and Manuel‘s eldest daughter marrying the heir of John de la Pole
John II would do his best for securing the succession of his nephew (as he do not wanted Manuel as successor) so I would NOT exclude Joanna’s son as successor of his uncle.No, the English would not get enough backing.
I see the problem. I also see a solution. Have Juan of Asturias live and give Ferdinand and Isabella a second son (b. 1487) and have that kid live to adulthood.
Not sure if keeping Richard childless was on OP's agenda.
Soon as he kicks the bucket, the locals are gonna look to Manuel. His nephew would only be like 11 on his death, and that guy would be the PoW too. Not excluding the possibility but I personally find it unlikely.John II would do his best for securing the succession of his nephew (as he do not wanted Manuel as successor) so I would NOT exclude Joanna’s son as successor of his uncle.
Catalina born as boy work better and I think OP was not much interested on Richard’s own successor
Yes, but is more plausible changing her sex than having another child for Ferdinand and Isabella....Soon as he kicks the bucket, the locals are gonna look to Manuel. His nephew would only be like 11 on his death, and that guy would be the PoW too. Not excluding the possibility but I personally find it unlikely.
Catherine tho has already been concieved.
Isabella would be 36 in 1487, not particularly implausible. Bit late, yes, but not outside the realm of possibility.Yes, but is more plausible changing her sex than having another child for Ferdinand and Isabella....
She had a lot of troubles in precedent pregnancies and is likely who she received suggestion to not get pregnant again after the twins...Isabella would be 36 in 1487, not particularly implausible. Bit late, yes, but not outside the realm of possibility.