Richard III wins at Bosworth - what happens to Edward IV's daughters with Elizabeth Woodville?

[isabella]

But would they *stay* loyal?

Two centuries before, a Holy Roman Emperor observed wearily that "No Pope can be a Ghibelline." In the same way, would any son -in-law of Edward IV be able to remain a Ricardian?

Isn't marrying someone widely perceived to have a better claim to the throne than the present occupant almost bound to drive them apart, rather as elevation to Canterbury ruined relations between Becket and Henry II?

And if EoY is married to a foreigner, she might be viewed as no longer eligible, though such technicalities are easily be overlooked if someone wants to badly enough.

Cecily's pretty low marriage and Elizabeth's foreign one were chosen to neutralize the Edwardian claim. Anne and Catherine can very well be married in the high nobility to Ricardian supporters. Anne was to be married to the heir of Norfolk so a match between Catherine and the heir of Northumberland made sense. Arundel has already his daughter married to Richard's heir presumptive and is also married to one of Elizabeth Woodville's sisters so better do not give him eventual ideas...
Edmund de la Pole, well married to Catherine of York he would likely be seen as rival to his elder brother and well marrying an officially illegitimate girl to the younger brother of his heir presumptive would be a bad idea. Edmund de la Pole need an heiress as bride

 

[Kynan]

Cecily's pretty low marriage and Elizabeth's foreign one were chosen to neutralize the Edwardian claim. Anne and Catherine can very well be married in the high nobility to Ricardian supporters. Anne was to be married to the heir of Norfolk so a match between Catherine and the heir of Northumberland made sense. Arundel has already his daughter married to Richard's heir presumptive and is also married to one of Elizabeth Woodville's sisters so better do not give him eventual ideas...
Edmund de la Pole, well married to Catherine of York he would likely be seen as rival to his elder brother and well marrying an officially illegitimate girl to the younger brother of his heir presumptive would be a bad idea. Edmund de la Pole need an heiress as bride

The trouble really is that past the death of Edward of Middleham, Richard is going to be increasingly edgy about what to do with the York sisters. He can't marry them off without potentially creating similar rival lines ala the Beaufort claim Henry Tudor inherited, but he also can't leave them unmarried because then they're at risk of marrying those with power to enforce their claims. Cecily and Elizabeth presented the two possible solutions for him (foreign but not primary, and pretty powerless and loyal). Anne being promised to Howard feels to me like something he made prior to the death of is son, and I could see it falling back if he felt it jeapodised his heir, particularly if he and Joanna have no children/only female heirs. Honestly, his best bet is to find some secondary foreign noble with minimal power or support and send them off there. Honestly, he might look to a son of Anthony of Burgundy and send Catherine off to live in Brussels with her aunt. Minimise the threat to Lincoln and everyone might even be kinda happy.

 

[isabella]

The trouble really is that past the death of Edward of Middleham, Richard is going to be increasingly edgy about what to do with the York sisters. He can't marry them off without potentially creating similar rival lines ala the Beaufort claim Henry Tudor inherited, but he also can't leave them unmarried because then they're at risk of marrying those with power to enforce their claims. Cecily and Elizabeth presented the two possible solutions for him (foreign but not primary, and pretty powerless and loyal). Anne being promised to Howard feels to me like something he made prior to the death of is son, and I could see it falling back if he felt it jeapodised his heir, particularly if he and Joanna have no children/only female heirs. Honestly, his best bet is to find some secondary foreign noble with minimal power or support and send them off there. Honestly, he might look to a son of Anthony of Burgundy and send Catherine off to live in Brussels with her aunt. Minimise the threat to Lincoln and everyone might even be kinda happy.

Anne and Catherine are NO threat for anyone as they have a pretty low claim and can be married to loyal supporters.

 

[Kynan]

Anne and Catherine are NO threat for anyone as they have a pretty low claim and can be married to loyal supporters.

Richard, Duke of Gloucester wasn't a threat because he was the youngest brother of two men who had almost a dozen children between them. Henry Tudor wasn't a threat because his claim was weak, low and probably not even legal. The House of York wasn't a threat because there was a King, with his own legitimate son, on the throne already. Henry Bolingbroke wasn't a threat because not only was he deemed a rebel and a traitor, but the King already had a set heir. This era, particular in English History, is littered with mid to low level threats to the throne who have low claims and massive success. Henry VII almost lost his throne to random blond men given decent clothes TWICE. Actual children of a former King procreating is going to be extremely worrisome to whoever holds the throne, particularly if they're setting up a transition of power that's legally iffy regardless. It doesn't mean they won't marry, but it does mean he'll have some anxiety before agreeing to any matches, and I could see him sending them off overseas to lessen the potential threat.

 

[Mikestone8]

Actual children of a former King procreating is going to be extremely worrisome to whoever holds the throne, particularly if they're setting up a transition of power that's legally iffy regardless. It doesn't mean they won't marry, but it does mean he'll have some anxiety before agreeing to any matches, and I could see him sending them off overseas to lessen the potential threat.

And even that could backfire.

Iirc, King John of Portugal didn't get on too well with his cousin, so I could see him encouraging Manuel to take up his wife's claim to the English throne, simply as a way to get him out of Portugal. That's even more plausible if Richard and Joanna don't have children.

 

[Mikestone8]

Henry VII almost lost his throne to random blond men given decent clothes TWICE.

Did he really? Stoke wasn't all that close-run, and Warbeck's 1497 campaign wa a fiasco. Certainly Henry was worried at times, but his troubles were relatively minor compared with what Henry IV and Edward IV had to cope with during their first decade on the hone.

It's one of history's little jokes that the most serious revolt against Henry VII - the Cornish peasant rising of 1496 - did better without *any* pretender than those others did *with* one.

 

[Kynan]

Did he really? Stoke wasn't all that close-run, and Warbeck's 1497 campaign wa a fiasco. Certainly Henry was worried at times, but his troubles were relatively minor compared with what Henry IV and Edward IV had to cope with during their first decade on the hone.

It's one of history's little jokes that the most serious revolt against Henry VII - the Cornish peasant rising of 1496 - did better without *any* pretender than those others did *with* one.

I am being hyperbolic there, but it definitely made him sweat and the fact there was some support, particularly foreign support (minor though it was) is enough to show that his hold on the throne was INCREDIBLY shakey.

 

[Mikestone8]

I am being hyperbolic there, but it definitely made him sweat

My impression is that what he really feared was the possibility - however slim - that Warbeck just *might* turn out to be the genuine article. That would shatter the coaition of Lancastrians and "Edwardian" Yorkists which formed the backbone of his support

Nor could he be absolutely sure how many Englishmen might *believe* Warbeck's claim. The pretender's abortive efforts in 1495 and 1497 suggest that Henry was probably more anxious than he really needed to be, but of course there was no way of knowing that for certain until Warbeck actually put it to the test.

 

[isabella]

Richard, Duke rof Gloucester wasn't a threat because he was the youngest brother of two men who had almost a dozen children between them. Henry Tudor wasn't a threat because his claim was weak, low and probably not even legal. The House of York wasn't a threat because there was a King, with his own legitimate son, on the throne already. Henry Bolingbroke wasn't a threat because not only was he deemed a rebel and a traitor, but the King already had a set heir. This era, particular in English History, is littered with mid to low level threats to the throne who have low claims and massive success. Henry VII almost lost his throne to random blond men given decent clothes TWICE. Actual children of a former King procreating is going to be extremely worrisome to whoever holds the throne, particularly if they're setting up a transition of power that's legally iffy regardless. It doesn't mean they won't marry, but it does mean he'll have some anxiety before agreeing to any matches, and I could see him sending them off overseas to lessen the potential threat.

All of them were in a different position. Unless both Elizabeth and Cecily died childless and Richard had no child of his own, Anne and Catherinare are NOT a danger. Yorks and Bolingbroke are a different thing but both Gloucester and Tudor‘s takeovers would be impossible without the exceptionally favorable circumstances who enabled them to take the crown

 

[Kynan]

All of them were in a different position. Unless both Elizabeth and Cecily died childless and Richard had no child of his own, Anne and Catherinare are NOT a danger. Yorks and Bolingbroke are a different thing but both Gloucester and Tudor‘s takeovers would be impossible without the exceptionally favorable circumstances who enabled them to take the crown

Again, I understand that, but Richard himself knows that:

(a) his own accession was unusual/probably illegitimate

(b) there's been no easy handover of power in England since Henry VI came to the throne as an infant

(c) his chosen heir is neither his son or even the senior male heir of his house

(d) he already had a rival claimant running around Europe who's claim is via an illegitimate female line

As I said earlier, Cecily was already married and Anne promised to marry in what seems to have been his plan of using the York sisters as useful domestic rewards to loyalists. Elizabeth's foreign match effectively removes the senior line out of England. However, once his son dies, the succession becomes a lot more unsettled. Even if he has a son via Joanna, he is reliant on surviving until around 1510 in order to prevent an unsettled handover of power. Marrying off Anne, Catherine and Bridget means creating potential rival lines to his own, particularly if Joanna doesn't have children and Lincoln becomes his heir. That will be especially worrisome if, say, one of those lines is married to a powerful Duke. Like Norfolk.

Richard does probably marry them off eventually, but I do think that, bare minimum, he holds off for a while. The York girls are dangerous to his wanted handover of power. If he wants Lincoln to succeed, he needs it to be as easy as possible.

Side note: I can actually see him finding a bride for the Earl of Warwick just to prevent a Warwick/York match. Because someone is probably going to come up with that.

 

[Zazou]

I have seen some suggest the de la Poles would be used as proxies, some going to Scotland and what not. Anne St Leger’s inheritance was confiscated by Richard IIRC, so she’d probably be married off to a loyal retainer. Margaret of Clarence might also meet the same fate as Anne St Leger.

Edward of Warwick might be kept around for a few years just in case he has to succeed Richard, and maybe later executed like in OTL.

What if Edward of Warrick was killed or monked before Margaret got married? Would powerful nobles feel slighted if Richard gave an heiress to a lowly upstart?

 

[RedKing]

What if Edward of Warrick was killed or monked before Margaret got married? Would powerful nobles feel slighted if Richard gave an heiress to a lowly upstart?

Hmm, that's interesting now. He probably wouldn't marry Margaret to a retainer than, more likely she'd go to a loyal vassal in that scenario.

 

[Zazou]

Let's assume that Richard manages to have surviving children and Anne of York dies on schedule. Catherine marries Northumberland and they have surviving children. Because of their father, her children would be the highest-ranking direct descendants of Edward IV in England. How would they be treated by Richard and his heir? Would they be permitted to intermarry with their Ricardian cousins?