Richard III wins at Bosworth - what happens to Edward IV's daughters with Elizabeth Woodville?

isabella

Kynan said:
When Joanna dies, probably childless, I wonder who Richard would push for as his third wife. Part of me thinks he'd probably cut his losses and start setting up John de la Pole as his successor for real, and if Margaret FitzAlan hasn't been able to have any more children, pushing to annul that marriage and set his heir up with either a surviving York girl, or barring that, whichever of-age foreign Princess is most likely to keep that in check. But if he did remarry, in the early 1490s, he might go for Joanna of Naples, who'd be around 12 when Joanna of Portugal dies, or maybe try for Anne of Brittany, if she's still available (probably fails but it's a possibility).

As for the York girls, as has been said, by 1485 it's only really Catherine and Bridget who are unaccounted for. Catherine might be kept around as that spare bride for the Earl of Lincoln, and Bridget probably gets to go to the Church as OTL, although probably a few years later.
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Margaret Fitzalan was likely barely old enough for having children when Lincoln died and is possible who their presumed short-lived son was totally fictional and Lincoln died without consummating the wedding
 
Kynan

Kynan

curlyhairedhippie said:
He needs a bride who can give him a child asap so idk if he would be willing to wait for a 12 year old who is at least three or four years away from being able to safely give birth...
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Honestly she was just the first person I thought of off the top of my head. Blanche of Montferrat or maybe the widowed Louise of Savoy if someone can convince her the English need help with God of the like.

isabella said:
Margaret Fitzalan was likely barely old enough for having children when Lincoln died and is possible who their presumed short-lived son was totally fictional and Lincoln died without consummating the wedding
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Fair, and that solidifies my take that Richard, who was pretty level headed in most things during his life, might decide it'd be safer to set him up as heir, rather than trying a third time for children.
 

Bob_Jenko

Kynan said:
Honestly she was just the first person I thought of off the top of my head. Blanche of Montferrat or maybe the widowed Louise of Savoy if someone can convince her the English need help with God of the like.


Fair, and that solidifies my take that Richard, who was pretty level headed in most things during his life, might decide it'd be safer to set him up as heir, rather than trying a third time for children.
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Richard was a smart man, why wouldn't he do both? Keep trying for a son but knowing that if he couldn't get one he still had Lincoln as a backup. Though then again, Richard himself had proven how damaging a powerful adult relative with a possibility of the crown could be on a child King.
 
Kynan

Kynan

Bob_Jenko said:
Richard was a smart man, why wouldn't he do both? Keep trying for a son but knowing that if he couldn't get one he still had Lincoln as a backup. Though then again, Richard himself had proven how damaging a powerful adult relative with a possibility of the crown could be on a child King.
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I honestly think that, by 1490, if he doesn't have a son, Richard might start considering prepping his nephew for the throne, rather than continuing to try for a child that won't come. He might have a daughter he'll have to send off to Portugal to smooth that all over, but ultimately, without a son and heir, he'll have already done a lot of work setting up John de la Pole as future King by marrying his sisters to foreign rulers. A Regency is tricky, even with a trusted family member at the helm. As you said, Richard's own ascension is proof of that.
 

Bob_Jenko

Kynan said:
I honestly think that, by 1490, if he doesn't have a son, Richard might start considering prepping his nephew for the throne, rather than continuing to try for a child that won't come. He might have a daughter he'll have to send off to Portugal to smooth that all over, but ultimately, without a son and heir, he'll have already done a lot of work setting up John de la Pole as future King by marrying his sisters to foreign rulers. A Regency is tricky, even with a trusted family member at the helm. As you said, Richard's own ascension is proof of that.
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Very possible.

Would there be a way of Richard having 2 daughters, one going to Portugal and the other marrying a son of John de la Pole, just to smooth everything over in England as well? Or could a daughter of Elizabeth of York and Manuel of Beja marry John's son? Because as has been stated, technically Elizabeth and her heirs would have a higher claim to the English throne.
 

isabella

Kynan said:
I honestly think that, by 1490, if he doesn't have a son, Richard might start considering prepping his nephew for the throne, rather than continuing to try for a child that won't come. He might have a daughter he'll have to send off to Portugal to smooth that all over, but ultimately, without a son and heir, he'll have already done a lot of work setting up John de la Pole as future King by marrying his sisters to foreign rulers. A Regency is tricky, even with a trusted family member at the helm. As you said, Richard's own ascension is proof of that.
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Pretty unlikely who Joana will have any child. John de la Pole’s son marrying a daughter of Manuel and Elizabeth instead is a very good idea
 

Bob_Jenko

How about

Richard, Duke of York (1411-1460) m. Cecily Neville (1415-1495)

Anne of York (1439-1476) m. a) Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter (1430-1475), b) Thomas St. Leger (1440-1483)
Anne Holland (1461-1467)
Anne St. Leger (1476-1526) m. Edmund de la Pole, Duke of Exeter

Edward IV of England (1442-1483), r.1461-1470, 1471-1483 m. Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1492)
Elizabeth of York (1466-1513) m. Manuel I, King of Portugal (1469-1521)
John III, King of Portugal (1487-1550)
Joanna of Portugal (1491-1547) m. Richard IV of England (1490-1543), had issue
Others
Mary of York (1467-1482)
Cecily of York (1467-1507) m. Ralph Scrope, Baron Scrope of Masham (d.1515), had issue
Edward, Prince of Wales (1470-1483)
Richard, Duke of York (1473-1483)
Anne of York (1475-1511) m. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (1473-1554), had issue
Catherine of York (1479-1527) m. Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland (1477-1527), had issue
Bridget of York (1480-1517), became a nun

Elizabeth of York, Duchess of Suffolk (1444-1503) m. John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk (1442-1492)
John II of England (1461-1521), r.1505-1521 m. Margaret FitzAlan (?-1524)
Richard IV of England (1490-1543), r.1521-1543 m. Joanna of Portugal (1491-1547)
Edward V of England (1509-1561), m.?
Edward, Duke of York (1492-1520) m.?
John, Duke of Suffolk (1495-1530) m.?
Edmund de la Pole, Duke of Exeter (1471-1528) m. Anne St. Leger (1476-1526), had issue
William de la Pole, Duke of Gloucester (1478-1539) m.?
Richard de la Pole, Duke of Bedford (1480-1540) m.?

George, Duke of Clarence (1449-1478) m. Isabel Neville (1453-1476)
Margaret of Clarence (1473-1541) m.?
Edward, Earl of Warwick (1475-?)

Richard III of England (1452-1505) m. a) Anne Neville (1456-1484), b) Joanna of Portugal (1452-1490)
1a) Edward, Prince of Wales (1473-1484)


Unsure on who John de la Pole's other brothers should marry.
 

isabella

Bob_Jenko said:
How about

Richard, Duke of York (1411-1460) m. Cecily Neville (1415-1495)

Anne of York (1439-1476) m. a) Henry Holland, Duke of Exeter (1430-1475), b) Thomas St. Leger (1440-1483)
Anne Holland (1461-1467)
Anne St. Leger (1476-1526) m. Edmund de la Pole, Duke of Exeter

Edward IV of England (1442-1483), r.1461-1470, 1471-1483 m. Elizabeth Woodville (1437-1492)
Elizabeth of York (1466-1513) m. Manuel I, King of Portugal (1469-1521)
John III, King of Portugal (1487-1550)
Joanna of Portugal (1491-1547) m. Richard IV of England (1490-1543), had issue
Others
Mary of York (1467-1482)
Cecily of York (1467-1507) m. Ralph Scrope, Baron Scrope of Masham (d.1515), had issue
Edward, Prince of Wales (1470-1483)
Richard, Duke of York (1473-1483)
Anne of York (1475-1511) m. Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk (1473-1554), had issue
Catherine of York (1479-1527) m. Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland (1477-1527), had issue
Bridget of York (1480-1517), became a nun

Elizabeth of York, Duchess of Suffolk (1444-1503) m. John de la Pole, Duke of Suffolk (1442-1492)
John II of England (1461-1521), r.1505-1521 m. Margaret FitzAlan (?-1524)
Richard IV of England (1490-1543), r.1521-1543 m. Joanna of Portugal (1491-1547)
Edward V of England (1509-1561), m.?
Edward, Duke of York (1492-1520) m.?
John, Duke of Suffolk (1495-1530) m.?
Edmund de la Pole, Duke of Exeter (1471-1528) m. Anne St. Leger (1476-1526), had issue
William de la Pole, Duke of Gloucester (1478-1539) m.?
Richard de la Pole, Duke of Bedford (1480-1540) m.?

George, Duke of Clarence (1449-1478) m. Isabel Neville (1453-1476)
Margaret of Clarence (1473-1541) m.?
Edward, Earl of Warwick (1475-?)

Richard III of England (1452-1505) m. a) Anne Neville (1456-1484), b) Joanna of Portugal (1452-1490)
1a) Edward, Prince of Wales (1473-1484)


Unsure on who John de la Pole's other brothers should marry.
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No way Anne St. Leger will marry one of her de la Pole cousins and she was NOT an heiress as Richard III executed her father and deprived her of the Exeter’s lands
 

Bob_Jenko

isabella said:
No way Anne St. Leger will marry one of her de la Pole cousins and she was NOT an heiress as Richard III executed her father and deprived her of the Exeter’s lands
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Hmm okay. I was thinking possibly she was given it back so she could marry a de la Pole but if that's too much of a stretch then okay.
 

Mikestone8

Zygmunt Stary said:
Why? They're loyal and Catherine is not a threat with her elder sisters being alive.
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But would they *stay* loyal?

Two centuries before, a Holy Roman Emperor observed wearily that "No Pope can be a Ghibelline." In the same way, would any son -in-law of Edward IV be able to remain a Ricardian?

Isn't marrying someone widely perceived to have a better claim to the throne than the present occupant almost bound to drive them apart, rather as elevation to Canterbury ruined relations between Becket and Henry II?

And if EoY is married to a foreigner, she might be viewed as no longer eligible, though such technicalities are easily be overlooked if someone wants to badly enough.
 
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