I think of Belgium as the "Austria" and Switzerland as the "Czechoslovakia"
Spain is probably the best way that WW2 would start (I.E. Brazier demands Catalonia, Spain declines, Germany, Britain, and Ukraine back Spain, France invades Spain, etc.)
Reverse Cold War 2.0
- Thread starter lionjedi1215
- Start date
Spain is probably the best way that WW2 would start (I.E. Brazier demands Catalonia, Spain declines, Germany, Britain, and Ukraine back Spain, France invades Spain, etc.)
Hhat's a good idea. Belgium as Austria might be a good idea, too. What about an independent Corsica as Austria, though?
EDIT: I could also see a demilitarised Corsica as Saarland or Rhineland equivalent. But these could also be Pas-de-Calais?
I do have an idea for some points in the history of France...
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The reason Belgium is Austria is because Brazier is Belgian
What is your idea?
I mean to uh... Improve upon the map he posted in the very first page.
My two maps are such improvements, but I still would like your very own ideas to compare them to mine...
I don't intend to replace your maps. I just want to explore the ideas of Reverse Cold War.
That's even better. I didn't think you wanted to replace my maps, no panic.
2023 Map
@lionjedi1215 : I had a few more ideas and thus made a few more changes to the 2023 map:
EDIT (March 14): I gave Germany its 1914 borders back.
EDIT: And made a few more changes...
EDIT: Just because I love it more (I admit), I gave Germany, Poland and the Ottoman Empire some current or former holdings in the Caribbean. Most of them now independent, but OTL St. Vincent and the Grenadines remain German. Just to give Germany even more of a Platz an der Sonne...
EDIT: Today, I made some revisions, mainly regarding Pacific island nations.
EDIT: I added my new ideas regarding Italy to the map.
- Several changes in Central America to make it a somewhat closer analogue of the OTL Middle East - with Belize as Kuwait and Native American peoples (Maya, Ixil etc.) as the Kurdish analogue.
- Added the East Bank and the Tacna Strip
- I think independent Baltic nations make this scenario significantly better and a little more plausible
EDIT (March 14): I gave Germany its 1914 borders back.
EDIT: And made a few more changes...
EDIT: Just because I love it more (I admit), I gave Germany, Poland and the Ottoman Empire some current or former holdings in the Caribbean. Most of them now independent, but OTL St. Vincent and the Grenadines remain German. Just to give Germany even more of a Platz an der Sonne...
EDIT: Today, I made some revisions, mainly regarding Pacific island nations.
EDIT: I added my new ideas regarding Italy to the map.
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@lionjedi1215 : Could you threadmark my list of Heads of State and Government and the most recent map, please?
Just did!
Also, if some American generals, politicians, and other influential people left for Brazier's France after Mason came to power, would some go to Germany or Russia?
De ecclesia
WIP!
De ecclesia:
The Catholic Church and its woes in the 20th century
Benito Mussolini remained a socialist/communist ITTL and, together with many even more radical comrades, proclaimed the Italian Workers' Republic in late 1917 - the fourth communist state after America (democratically elected and secured after a coup attempt), Britain and France.
While France's first communist revolution quickly collapsed (West France was an an Anglo-American satellite state which is not even recognised as communist by many Lutte Nationale supporters), Italy's was crushed - but not before Robert Brazier's France intervened and helped a fascist "counter-"revolution in late 1935.
During the Decada Rossa ("Red Decade") it was that the most extreme communists around Guglielmo Ventriccio and Emiliano D'Avella came to power, after the death of Benito Mussolini at the hands of an intra-syndical rival on October 19, 1924. When the pope died, Ventriccio ordered the Italian Workers' Army to invade Rome.
Not only were innumerable values of art and culture looted, set on fire or destroyed, the IWA - despite seeing some desertion and even treason - forced the funeral of Pope Pius XI. to take place without a subsequent conclave. Only the fall of the communists in 1935-38 (with French assistance), which ended with the Reds being deposed (some even claim the Ventriccio/D'Avella regime deserves the name "Red Etruscans" or "Red Oscans", but they never claimed any relations to these pre-Roman peoples - it is a reference to the "Red Foula" regime of Guinea decades later), enabled a new conclave to take place in August 1938.
With the fall of Italy to the Allies, the Populist Nationalists were deposed again and Emiliano D'Avella was even restored as the head of the Political Committee of the SULI ("United Workers' Syndicate of Italy") of the Workers' Union of Italy on Sardinia. The island only relaxed on the most extreme form of atheism seen since 9 Thermidor An II (July 27, 1794) - which was valid in all of Italy from 1918 to 1938 (in some parts) and on Sardinia again from 1946 to 1965 - after the death of D'Avella, who was replaced by a more orthodox syndicalist.
The Holy See was vacant for nearly fourteen years (October 19, 1924 to August 7, 1938) - by far the longest it has been in history - and it caused a schism in the church, although it was never openly pronounced. Never was a true antipope proclaimed, let alone a schismatic church.
Before its fall to communism, Mexico recognised the National Populist, French satellite popes (1938-1946). Until 1984, Mexico was under a communist regime (though more often than not shunned or even despised by the UASR as Mexico's communists leaned Zapatist) and recognised the pope in Rome. However, this dramatically changed with the Christian Revolution in 1984: A fundamentalist Catholic Sedevacantist group led this revolution - and managed to spread it to Central America. To this day, the Mexican regime claims the Holy See is vacant (read: occupied by an impostor/usurper) and does not recognsie popes beginning with Paul VII. (Giandomenico D'Azzaro, 1946-1955).
Meanwhile, a "conclave" was called in Buenos Aires in the summer of 1926. But not with the goal of establishing an (anti-)pope, but setting up a "temporary council": This is considered the birth of Episcopalism, i.e. the idea that a council of biships should rule a national Catholic Church in the Pope's stead.
Argentinian, Chilean, Amazonian, Riograndense, Matogrossense, Central American, Cuban etc. Episcopalism formally recognise the Popes from 1929 onwards, but have established a, for all intents and purposes separate from Rome, system of ruling a nation in an authoritarian to totalitarian manner.
In the most extreme versions of Paraguay, Amazonia, Acre and Roramia, laws that have not been applied in Europe since the 1750s, like the penalty of burning at the stake, have been reintroduced - not only for witchcraft and sorcery though...
Mexican and Yucatánian sedevacantist Catholicism, though somewhat less extreme, is still ultraconservative fundamentalist and Ultramontanist in nature as well as fervently anti-communist, especially after the fall of Mexico's communist regime in 1984 in what is known as the Christian Revolution.
Meanwhile in Rome, ever since the election of Paul VII., the papacy has presented a haven of democratic and even reformist values.
De ecclesia:
The Catholic Church and its woes in the 20th century
Benito Mussolini remained a socialist/communist ITTL and, together with many even more radical comrades, proclaimed the Italian Workers' Republic in late 1917 - the fourth communist state after America (democratically elected and secured after a coup attempt), Britain and France.
While France's first communist revolution quickly collapsed (West France was an an Anglo-American satellite state which is not even recognised as communist by many Lutte Nationale supporters), Italy's was crushed - but not before Robert Brazier's France intervened and helped a fascist "counter-"revolution in late 1935.
During the Decada Rossa ("Red Decade") it was that the most extreme communists around Guglielmo Ventriccio and Emiliano D'Avella came to power, after the death of Benito Mussolini at the hands of an intra-syndical rival on October 19, 1924. When the pope died, Ventriccio ordered the Italian Workers' Army to invade Rome.
Not only were innumerable values of art and culture looted, set on fire or destroyed, the IWA - despite seeing some desertion and even treason - forced the funeral of Pope Pius XI. to take place without a subsequent conclave. Only the fall of the communists in 1935-38 (with French assistance), which ended with the Reds being deposed (some even claim the Ventriccio/D'Avella regime deserves the name "Red Etruscans" or "Red Oscans", but they never claimed any relations to these pre-Roman peoples - it is a reference to the "Red Foula" regime of Guinea decades later), enabled a new conclave to take place in August 1938.
With the fall of Italy to the Allies, the Populist Nationalists were deposed again and Emiliano D'Avella was even restored as the head of the Political Committee of the SULI ("United Workers' Syndicate of Italy") of the Workers' Union of Italy on Sardinia. The island only relaxed on the most extreme form of atheism seen since 9 Thermidor An II (July 27, 1794) - which was valid in all of Italy from 1918 to 1938 (in some parts) and on Sardinia again from 1946 to 1965 - after the death of D'Avella, who was replaced by a more orthodox syndicalist.
The Holy See was vacant for nearly fourteen years (October 19, 1924 to August 7, 1938) - by far the longest it has been in history - and it caused a schism in the church, although it was never openly pronounced. Never was a true antipope proclaimed, let alone a schismatic church.
Before its fall to communism, Mexico recognised the National Populist, French satellite popes (1938-1946). Until 1984, Mexico was under a communist regime (though more often than not shunned or even despised by the UASR as Mexico's communists leaned Zapatist) and recognised the pope in Rome. However, this dramatically changed with the Christian Revolution in 1984: A fundamentalist Catholic Sedevacantist group led this revolution - and managed to spread it to Central America. To this day, the Mexican regime claims the Holy See is vacant (read: occupied by an impostor/usurper) and does not recognsie popes beginning with Paul VII. (Giandomenico D'Azzaro, 1946-1955).
Meanwhile, a "conclave" was called in Buenos Aires in the summer of 1926. But not with the goal of establishing an (anti-)pope, but setting up a "temporary council": This is considered the birth of Episcopalism, i.e. the idea that a council of biships should rule a national Catholic Church in the Pope's stead.
Argentinian, Chilean, Amazonian, Riograndense, Matogrossense, Central American, Cuban etc. Episcopalism formally recognise the Popes from 1929 onwards, but have established a, for all intents and purposes separate from Rome, system of ruling a nation in an authoritarian to totalitarian manner.
In the most extreme versions of Paraguay, Amazonia, Acre and Roramia, laws that have not been applied in Europe since the 1750s, like the penalty of burning at the stake, have been reintroduced - not only for witchcraft and sorcery though...
Mexican and Yucatánian sedevacantist Catholicism, though somewhat less extreme, is still ultraconservative fundamentalist and Ultramontanist in nature as well as fervently anti-communist, especially after the fall of Mexico's communist regime in 1984 in what is known as the Christian Revolution.
Meanwhile in Rome, ever since the election of Paul VII., the papacy has presented a haven of democratic and even reformist values.
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I had a major idea (which would bring in a major change to the map and TL) while thinking about an analogue to OTL PRC.
Except for India, no single nation can probably represent OTL PRC. Thus, China has to be represented by a close alliance of nations:
China and Japan swap places! In World War II, China under Liang Qichao (et al.?) serves as TTLs Imperial Japan, while Japan serves as TTLs (communist) China - together with its own Greater Asian Workers' Co-Prosperity Sphere - encompassing (most of?) Southeast Asia and parts of India. In order to preserve my ideas on a stable and more prosperous Central and West Africa not affiliated to either America or Russia, I had the idea of Japan, some time after the Amero-Japanese Split (i.e. between 1969 and 1989), Japan denounces its form of technocratic communism in favour of "pure" technocracy/ultra-scientific rationalism or even technocratic militarism.
We could still keep Spain and Portugal as well as Britain communist, but I have also thought of making Britain a constitutional monarchy again (or a Republic?).
For a smaller change, I thought about Spain having gained parts of southern France with a French border partly at the Garonne (Garonne-Lot Line?) as TTLs equivalent of the Oder-Neiße Line.
I'll map this out, too. What do you think, @lionjedi1215 ? We can also keep both timelines alive...
Except for India, no single nation can probably represent OTL PRC. Thus, China has to be represented by a close alliance of nations:
China and Japan swap places! In World War II, China under Liang Qichao (et al.?) serves as TTLs Imperial Japan, while Japan serves as TTLs (communist) China - together with its own Greater Asian Workers' Co-Prosperity Sphere - encompassing (most of?) Southeast Asia and parts of India. In order to preserve my ideas on a stable and more prosperous Central and West Africa not affiliated to either America or Russia, I had the idea of Japan, some time after the Amero-Japanese Split (i.e. between 1969 and 1989), Japan denounces its form of technocratic communism in favour of "pure" technocracy/ultra-scientific rationalism or even technocratic militarism.
We could still keep Spain and Portugal as well as Britain communist, but I have also thought of making Britain a constitutional monarchy again (or a Republic?).
For a smaller change, I thought about Spain having gained parts of southern France with a French border partly at the Garonne (Garonne-Lot Line?) as TTLs equivalent of the Oder-Neiße Line.
I'll map this out, too. What do you think, @lionjedi1215 ? We can also keep both timelines alive...
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@lionjedi1215 : I thought I would have to change most of Asia and maybe a lot more, but that was not the case. So I now dared to replace the map in the threadmarked post...
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