One big difference is that the various shipyards that are building the stuff authorized under the Two Ocean Navy Act will go to maximum production rate earlier and the USN will probably start the Midways(or whatever they end up being named) or their equivalents considerably earlier due to experience gained in Europe. Plus you can expect destroyer escorts to be started earlier as well which will make a big difference.
Remember the Texas! The United States in World War II (an alternate history)
- Thread starter galveston bay
- Start date
There is no time to adapt a foreign design. The US might be tempted to keep the T7 started in January 1941 a Light Tank to put it in production sooner since they are at war now, but it's not guaranteed at all.
Edit: It's actually probably screwed anyway: in June it was only a mockup and in July 1941 the 57mm gun was requested for it so it will already grow.
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McPherson
Banned
Ford? Liberty engine? Christie suspension? 57 mm cannon (Hotchkiss US Model 1887 NAVAL gun?). The only thing British that bothers me about this tank is the Nuffield synchromesh transmission and Earl A. Thompson? The Crusader is COTS and doable. Might be weird as it would be welded instead of bolted and the fire control would be Rock Island and Barnes would keep trying to improve it, but "bird in hand".
Just caught up in this thread. As a Filipino, I would say this would cause massive butterflies for the Commonwealth of the Philippines. So my guess is the PI is better prepared with a handful of P-40s, B-17s, submarines, and the newest small arms. Some events may be butterflied away such as the WWII heroes namely Ceasar Basa and Jesus Villamor. They could still be heroes here but probably in a different light (i.e. Villamor flew an obsolete Peashooter and shot down four Japanese planes: one G3M bomber and three A6Ms).
Looks like my former AHC scenario regarding to prevent the Fall of the Philippines would be enacted here.
Looks like my former AHC scenario regarding to prevent the Fall of the Philippines would be enacted here.
marathag
Banned
OTL, one of the cleanest swaps was with the PB4Y-2 Privateers reworked at firebombers, using B-25 R-2600 engines and cowlings
But the Devastator Line was shut down years before the start of the War.
Had their been more built, you might have had a modification program, but IMO that ship had sailed, with the Devastator missing the -2 upgrade to a higher power engine it really needed.
In 1941, Wright has enough pull to prevent the Jupiter from getting a foothold in the US
I also think the Sea Wolf was a great design, but being passed around from Vought to Consolidated doomed it. Earlier War might save it, with the perceived lesser need for Corsairs not as great in mid 1941 as after Pearl Harbor. Vought was just too small, limited by its Connecticut plant
marathag
Banned
The M7 got hit bad with mission creep from replacing the M3 light to a Medium, and the US already had a perfectly acceptable Medium in the form of the M4, so the Bettendorf Tank Arsenal hardly did a thing during the war
14 ton T7 of 1941 with M3 styled turret
27 ton T7E5 with new hull, and 75 mm gun
Best thing out of the program was the Transaxle and Engine were on fast release rails, for quick replacement that later was used with the M18 Hellcat
The irony is that if they had kept thin armor like the Stuart and the Chaffee instead of bloating it to medium tank level, and had made it only welded to avoid any weight growth due to castings, it would probably not have been much heavier than a Chaffee and would thus have been suitable as a light. Even reorienting the program yet again to a Light Tank with a more compact and lighter powertrain would probably have yielded a light tank sooner than the M24.The M7 got hit bad with mission creep from replacing the M3 light to a Medium, and the US already had a perfectly acceptable Medium in the form of the M4, so the Bettendorf Tank Arsenal hardly did a thing during the war
14 ton T7 of 1941 with M3 styled turret
27 ton T7E5 with new hull, and 75 mm gun
Best thing out of the program was the Transaxle and Engine were on fast release rails, for quick replacement that later was used with the M18 Hellcat
US requirement creep and pursuit of perfection ruining everything as always.
I think it would be a little more complicated. From a production standpoint you would need to advance increases in steel capability. Kaiser's west coast operations relied on the new government built steel plant at Geneva Utah. In the east the shipyards relayed on new production mills at U S Steel and Bethlehem. All of these projects would have to move forward as well From a strategic prospective you need the destroyer escorts and British frigates. You also need to close the mid Atlantic air gap. The B-24s would be available but the battle with Bomber Harris and Hap Arnold to get them released for anti submarine patrol would have to be won earlier. I don't think most realize just how close the Western Allies came to losing the war over this one.
McPherson
Banned
There was more than one T7.
File:Convertible Combat Car T7.jpg - Wikimedia Commons
I can see that with a 37/50.
The M7 developed from the Stuart (1942) was not suitable. It's transmission was overburdened and the armor was deemed inadequate. If American tank progression is shoved forward 6 months, one winds up with either the Sherman three months faster or an improved M3 Stuart as the M5.
The real trick is to actually jump the step from M3 Lee/Grant directly into the Sherman and that requires Rock Island to get their heads out of their butts and let the US NAVY (Naval Gun Factory specifically) help their stupid silly army asses earlier to design a gun turret for the 75/40.
That would actually help the most.
Barring that? Pick the Crusader, bird in hand, and fix its numerous problems in the year leading up to sinking the USS Texas.
If I had been a 1939 American and prescient, I would have jumped on the Cruiser Mark II and worked that problem into a further solution. Honestly the worst thing the 1920 National Defense Act got wrong besides not giving the American Navy sole responsibility for the national air farce, was to split tanks away from the American army cavalry. Those yahoos were dragoons by historic tradition so modern armor and combined arms should have come naturally to them. Its the way they fought WWII anyway as Armor Branch, so why not make tanks the US cavalry arm weapon platform?
Sam Rayburn after a fiery opening in Congress spent twelve long years saying not a damn word in favour of hard work in order to acquire first the powerful Interstate Committee and finally the Speakership to achieve his goal—the People’s Party final revenge against the Eastern establishment. He was truly honest, his word was his bond, and he stuck by his friends no matter what. Heck he kept track of the only five honest members of the Texas legislature of the time in order to help them later if he could. Like if you’re some congressman giving a speech and Rayburn sits next to you the House knows they’ll be voting for you.
LBJ interestingly enough used Rayburn’s honour to turn FDR against Rayburn via Garner’s primary challenge in 1940. FDR because of LBJ’s machinations thought Rayburn had actually fought against him, in reality Rayburn stood by his friend Garner in words but in deeds fought for the New Deal and his idol FDR.
Great idea for a timeline, any faster end to the war is of huge help to the people dying in it and the world postwar.
McPherson
Banned
The Devastator line "could" be reconstituted for LANTLT (Great Lakes Aircraft or Naval Aircraft Factory were producing Curtiss junk.) allowing PACFLT to get the scarce and vitally needed Avengers/ Sea Wolfs in this ATL. As an aside, the Devastator came with a Pratt R-1830 already (1830-64). Just put in a later mark (R1830-65 or 66) and supercharge it. 300 more HP.
marathag
Banned
As of Summer 1940, the planned Detroit Tank Arsenal was being built, with Chrysler having contract in hand for building M2A1 Mediums there once enough of the roof was up to allow assembly of said tanks.
Note I said assembly, not manufacture. DTA was not a Vertically Integrated Factory, but a final stop for hundreds of subcontractors to ship their goods to, where cast and rolled sections would be bolted, riveted and welded together, with all the other bits added in along the three assembly lines.
In 1940, the only places that could build tanks in the USA(and also with Subcontractors) was Rock Island Arsenal, set to build tanks by the handful, Walter Christie, trying to stave off Bankruptcy and able to make a couple tanks a month, and last, Marmon-Herrington, who probably could have built a half dozen tanks a month, had anyone really wanted their sub-par designs besides the desperate Dutch, willing to buy anything with treads.
So earlier war, M-H may get a contract for their craptacular light and medium Tanks, as they were building them for the Dutch, who would have their order confiscated.
If Japan does attack the U.S. it won't be a true surprise and the lead up to it will be different, also Japanese-Americans will have had time to show their patriotism against Germany.
Does this avoid or lessen the Japanese internment?
Does this avoid or lessen the Japanese internment?
McPherson
Banned
Just to clue others in...
M2 medium tank - Wikipedia
Now one sees why the NAVAL GUN FACTORY should have been consulted? Treadtops down, there is a tank. Treadtops up, it is a clown car.
Yeah, there was no large scale casting for hulls and turrets done until Alco and Baldwin became involved.
a. Build the M2 with a proper upper deck and rationalized turret at Rock Island.
b. Christie should have been rationalized and been put to work building this.
File:British Tanks and Armoured Fighting Vehicles 1939-45 ...
Welded plates of course and Americanized.
C. For Marmon Harrington...
T7 Combat Car was based on the T1 Combat Car light tank ...
Put a cannon in her instead of a pair of machine guns. Take it off the CTMS.
Marmon-Herrington in World War Two
Not unless one wanted breakdowns and dead tank crews. The MH tanks had crap armor and crap transmissions.
It could turn out that way.
Based on the actual rat-bastard racist political class elites misruling California and the clown club running the American army out there? I'd say the 1940-1942 chances are ZERO.
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That could be a good thing. Use them for stateside training. Then maybe the Army can expand the Armor School to make sure new tank crew get more comprehensive training in armor warfare. Or they can just send more total men through it.
As an aside, the current commandant of the Armor School is General Admiral. Brigadier General Kevin Admiral to be precise.
marathag
Banned
by that, means
Welded plates of course and Americanized.
Better tracks
better engine
better transmission
controlled differential, as this shared the same faults that turned the Army off when Christies was trying to sell the Army on it
With those fixed, it looks like this, the Buick T49 GMC mockup of June 1942
BTW, this turret was very similar to the T7E2 Light being developed at this time, note closed top, before McNair demanded open tops for GMCs
external spring Christie, still with rear drive, powered by twin Buick engines. Had higher top speed than the M5 Stuart, but slower acceleration
At 14 tons, was in light tank class for its armor, 33mm
After a few changes, became the M18 Hellcat
Leaving Luzon alone would have been madness. No just because it put's an American bases in a nearly ideal choke point (and the Japanese more or less HAD to take Guam and Wake since those outposts pretty much throw the entire "defensive perimeter" concept into the dumpster, so war is more or less assured) but because Manila Bay is probably the Best port in Asia, one of the best in the World.
Is Asia big enough for MacArthur AND Chang?Is that a hint that Mac ultimately goes to China? I know... be patient and all will be revealed in time.
Not really. The Corps was pretty small pre-war. Use the Marines for the various Islands and Hawaii. Frees up the Rainbow Division to move to the ETO
Wasn't the decision not to intern the Nissei in Hawaii based more out of practicality/economics (They made up like 90 percent of the population of the Islands) then any sort of moral opposition?