Remember the Texas! The United States in World War II (an alternate history)

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
About the Avenger...



TWO WEEKS. Two lousy stinking weeks.

But let's talk Avenger nose jobs. Ever hear of the Parker Kalon Avenger?


Six months to redesign it: the wing for rockets and bombs and the nose for a more powerful different aspirated and plumbed Wright piece of crap engine. And to produce it GM style. Compared to fitting a Saber to a flying prototype, that is actually child's play.
Fitting an entirely different engine, from a different country, that the U.S. doesn't even have a factory capable of producing before massive retooling? Also, the retooling, starting up production is a non-trivial issue.

Not child's play. A not unreasonable example of the effort need to produce truly mass production versions of British engines can be seen in the RR Merlin/Packard 1650. That took a solid year.

Understand you hate the Wright and P&W engine lines. Okay. Message received. Doesn't come close to being a justification, based on facts as then available, for the U.S. to completely, or even partially abandon the two engine manufacturers. Not operating from hindsight here. Not responding in a "chose a ship/plane to refit" question.

We can also argue this until the cows come home, at the cost of utterly derailing this thread.

We ARE NOT going to do that. I'm not, and neither are you.
 
The Japanese can't simply ignore it. It is a U.S. Territory. With the end of the WNT/LNT the U.S. is free to proceed with already planned major improvements to the Islands defenses and, if the mood strikes, increase capacity for handling of aircraft, warships, and troop accommodations. Put B-17s or B-24 on Guam and the can not only attack Saipan but also the Palaus.
I think we just have to agree to disagree. I concede that if the US were to reinforce Guam as you propose Japan would respond. MY point is that the US lacked the where with all to reinforce Guam. With or without Pearl Harbor the US lacked the fleet train, the Seabees and aircraft. Particularly in light of a European War I don't see this level of commitment to Guam.
 

ShySusan

Gone Fishin'
I think we just have to agree to disagree. I concede that if the US were to reinforce Guam as you propose Japan would respond. MY point is that the US lacked the where with all to reinforce Guam. With or without Pearl Harbor the US lacked the fleet train, the Seabees and aircraft. Particularly in light of a European War I don't see this level of commitment to Guam.
Actually, I can see them doing exactly that. They don't need a fleet train, or SeaBees, to build defenses in peacetime. In fact, it makes more sense for them to do so now that they are in a shooting war. Better to spend sweat and treasure in peacetime, relatively speaking, than to spend blood to retake them. The US could see building heavy fortifications on the islands as a way to reduce the manpower needed to hold them. Troops fighting from fortified and prepared positions are many times more effective than troops fighting from hasty positions.

Put a reinforced company of Marines on Guam, with lots of firepower, a squadron or two of fighters, another of dive bombers and one of Catalinas for recon and you chew up any IJN landing attempt. The whole point of fortifying Guam is to do it before hostilities with Japan commence, so you don't need to fight your way through to the base, it's already prepped and ready.
 

Driftless

Donor
I can see that the altered circumstance adds to the appeal of building up Guam. If you can hold it and presumably Wake Island as well, it has all of the benefits others have noted. Still, It's a fairly good-sized island (210 sq mi./540 km sq). That would require a fair-sized force to hold against a determined assault. Post Pearl Harbor, there was no way that it could be prepared or defended. Could it be made ready here?
 

McPherson

Banned
Understand you hate the Wright and P&W engine lines.
Correction. I love Pratt and Whitney. Still do as a tech company almost as much as I love Raytheon.

Companies I loath for historic and or current technical incompetence:

GM.
Lockheed
Boeing
Burlington
Edison Power
Southern Power
ATT
The TVA

Those are my toppers.

Curtiss and Wright are in that list.

Back to topic... What is in the works for July August 1941?

Tanks and AFVs just beginning production.
Light tanks.
Infantry carrier
Scout vehicles? None.

How about a medium tank that was worth a dram?
13 months to fix it... Murphy what a bolo.

Canadian Rams are starting to look rather good.

How about the flight line?

  1. Beachcraft C-45 ......................................................Adequate.
  2. Bell P-39......................................................................Botched, lost power above 3000 meters and armament boloed.
  3. Boeing Stearman Kaydet......................................Adequate.
  4. Brewster SB2A.........................................................Unacceptable. Pilot killer.
  5. Brewster XBSA-1.....................................................Unacceptable. Pilot killer.
  6. Consolidated B-24...................................................Wing main spar design defect.
  7. Curtiss O-52...............................................................Average but was expensive.
  8. Curtiss P-40-1...........................................................Outclassed.
  9. Curtiss P-40-2...........................................................Uprated but still outclassed.
  10. Curtiss XP-46............................................................Engine fit was botched.
  11. Curtiss XP-60............................................................Engine fit was botched.
  12. Curtiss Wright C-46................................................Not too good. Tail control issues.
  13. Douglas A-20.............................................................Havoc by any name.
  14. Douglas A-24.............................................................Dauntless by any name. (Starting to see a theme here?)
  15. Grumman XP-50......................................................Engine fit was botched. (Wrights, what else? Pratts and it would have soared.)
  16. Martin B-26...............................................................Martin goodness #1
  17. Martin Baltimore....................................................Martin goodness #2
  18. Martin Maryland (Uprated)................................Martin goodness #3 but British would not pay for it.
  19. Martin PBM Mariner.............................................Martin goodness #4. It still leaked.
  20. NAF Model A............................................................Wright engine killed it.
  21. NAF Model B............................................................Allison P/P unacceptable.
  22. North American B-25...........................................Legend.
  23. Northrop N1M ........................................................Unacceptable.
  24. Northrop N3PB.......................................................Missed Opportunity to Rikko.
  25. Piper L-4......................................................................Target practice.
  26. Radioplane OQ2......................................................More target practice, but this one worked.
  27. Republic P-43............................................................This might have worked, but it ground looped and burned like a Zero when hit.
  28. Chance Vought VS-319.........................................Not enough watts through props. Died in the paper study.
  29. Vultee A-35................................................................Misused in Burma. About as good as a Stuka.
  30. Vultee P-1015...........................................................Another paper airplane. Died for the same reason as the VS-319. Too slow.
  31. Vultee P-66................................................................Not enough watts through props, wing loading too high, climbed like a molasses barrel.
So no acceptable tanks and the no acceptable fighters, and only three companies producing competitive bombers and recon planes.

There is the B-17, but she needs a lot of work (1943 before she will be "acceptable".).

How is UNCLE doing?

Not too good.

McP.
 
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US Navy October 15, 1941
Deployment United States Navy August 15, 1941
As the US Navy is a strong believer in Mahan, the battleships are concentrated in one Ocean to fight the main enemy. The carriers and cruisers are considered scouting and 'show the flag' ships and thus are split more equally but the operational fleet submarines, indeed all that are not obsolete, obsolescent, training ships or working up, are all being sent to the Pacific as are some additional S class boats to provide protection to the Philippines (their short range is a less of a handicap there)

Many of the warships below are still in transit to their new stations or deployment areas, and a number are under refit
(Refit*)

US Navy Forces Europe (Admiral Husband Kimmel) HQ Belfast, Northern Ireland
Primary mission: Guard the United Kingdom and local waters Secondary mission (late 1941), escort convoys to Murmansk along with British Home Fleet units
Fleet flagship CL Philadelphia
Battle Force (V Admiral Pye) BB West Virginia (Battle Force flag), Maryland, Colorado*(at Bremerton), Tennessee, California, New Mexico, Mississippi, Idaho, Pennsylvania*(at Philadelphia) Arizona* (at Boston) 4 BB attached to British Home Fleet, remainder escorting convoys in Western Approaches
Cruiser Division 9 (Rear Admiral Kent Hewitt) CL St Louis, Helena, Brooklyn, Philadelphia, Phoenix
Destroyer Flotilla One (Rear Admiral Theobald) CL Phoenix (flag)
Tenders Dobbin, Whitney|
DesRon 1 (Phelps, Dewey, Hull, MacDonough, Worden, Aylwin, Dale, Farragut, Monaghan)
DesRon 5 (Porter, Drayton, Flusser, Lamson, Mahan, Cushing, Perkins, Preston, Smith)
Total force: 10 BB (including 1 still on West Coast refitting, 2 still on East Coast refitting), 5 CL (2 refitting US West Coast), 18 DD (6 refitting US East Coast)

Atlantic Fleet (Admiral Chester Nimitz) HQ Boston, Massachusetts
Fleet flag CA Augusta (alt flag is sailing frigate Constitution)
Mission: Defend convoys and eliminate surface raiders in Western North Atlantic, Caribbean Sea and Gulf of Mexico, also provide cover to troop convoys to South America, Africa and the Middle East and includes subsidiary South Atlantic and Caribbean commands
Heavy Escort Force: RAdm Lebreton, BB Nevada, Oklahoma, New York (flag), Arkansas covering convoys to UK and Iceland
The battleships are organized into task forces based out of Norfolk, Philadelphia, New York and Boston and escort troop convoys. They are however mostly acting as training ships at present and their destroyers are escorting convoys instead

Aircraft Atlantic Fleet (RAdm Arthur Cooke) CV Ranger, CV Wasp, CV Yorktown, CVE Long Island (working up), CV Hornet ( commissioned Oct 12, available after February 1942)
Atlantic Fleet carriers sent their most modern fighters, dive bombers, and torpedo planes to Marine and Navy squadrons that would remain in the Pacific but due to proximity to home, will be the first to receive newer aircraft as they become available. Thus in 1941 there are a number of Brewster Buffalos and Vought Vindicator Dive bombers equipping their squadrons along with Douglas Devastator torpedo bombers
All Carriers are based out of Norfolk, along with their escorts and are organized into Task Forces

Cruiser Division 7 (RAdm Robert Giffen) CA Wichita (flag), Quincy, Tuscaloosa, Vincennes, Augusta,
Cruiser Division 4 (RAdm John Newton) CA Chicago, Louisville, Portland, Indianapolis
Destroyer Flotilla 3 (Captain Alan Kirk)
DesRon 7 (DD Plunkett, Niblack, Benson, Gleaves, Maya, Madison, Lansdale, Hilary Jones, Charles Hughes)
DesRon 27 (DD Decatur, Herbert, Jacob Jones, Roper, Dickerson, Badger, Babbitt, Leary, Schenck)
DesRon 9 (DD McDougal, Winslow, Moffett, Sampson, Davis, Jouett, Somers, Warrington)

Cruisers and destroyers are assigned to the battleship and carrier task forces, with 1 BB, 4 BB or CV, 2 CA, 4 DD or 1 CVE, 4 DD each group
(total force 4 BB, 3 CV, 1 CVE, 9 CA, 26 DD) (1 BB, 1 CV, 2 CA, 6 DD on US East Coast refitting)

US Convoy Escort pool (RAdm Reichmuth) (US East Coast Ports for convoys across Atlantic)
Destroyer Flotilla Four
DesRon 2 (DD Morris, Anderson, Hamman, Hughes, Sims, Mustin, Russell, O’Brien, Walke)
DesRon 8 (DD Wainwright, Lang, Stack, Sterrett, Wilson, Mayrant, Trippe, Rhind, Rowan)
DesRon 10 (DD Hambleton, Rodman, Emmons, McComb, Forrest, Fitch, Corry, Hobson) (these ships are working up and not combat ready)
Destroyer Flotilla Eight
DesRon 30 and DesRon 31 (18 Wickes/Clemson class 4 stack destroyers)
Total force: 36 destroyers plus 9 fitting out or training plus 18 more nearly complete and will be combat ready within 12 months) plus supplimental destroyers from DesROn 27 when they are not escorting the battleships

US Eastern Sea Frontier Command
120 Catalina Flying Boats
All US Coast Guard Forces on Eastern Seaboard
Minecraft US Battle Force (USS Oglala flag) R Admin Furlong
Mine Squadron One (8 Wickes/Clemson class 4 stack destroyer minesweeper/minelayers, 4 remained at Pearl Harbor)
Mine Squadrons Seven (12 Wickes/Clemson class 4 stack destroyer minesweeper/minelayers)
Mines Squadrons Eight, Nine, Ten (56 mine sweepers of various types)(26 are assigned to Gulf (16) and Caribbean (10) Sea Frontiers

Caribbean/Gulf of Mexico/South Atlantic Forces (R Adm Jonas Ingram)
12 Catalina Flying Boats plus various BLIMPS and smaller patrol aircraft
Cruiser Division Two (CL Memphis, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Omaha) plus CA Chester
DesRon 33 (9 Wilkes/Clemson class DD)
All US Coast Guard forces Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico (plus 26 minesweepers above) plus various patrol craft Balboa and San Juan bases
DesRon 29 (12 Wilkes/Clemson class DD taken from Asiatic Fleet)

Special note
The BB North Carolina and BB Washington as well as CLAA Atlanta are undergoing modification due to propeller problems and excessive vibration. None of these ships will be ready until early 1942. BB South Dakota has been launched but is still being completed and will be ready late summer 1942

The Pacific and Asiatic Fleets have both undergone substantial reorganization as the bulk of their battleships and destroyers and many of their cruisers have been sent to the Atlantic (along with a considerable amount of their minewarfare ships).

Asiatic Fleet (Admiral Thomas Hart)
21 Catalina Flying Boats
31 Submarines (mix of S type and fleet submarines) plus 17 S type en route from Atlantic
CA Houston (flag)
Cruiser Division 3 (RAdm Thomas Bidwell) CL Marblehead, Trenton, Richmond, Concord, CA Houston,
Destroyer Division 7 (DD Henley, Blue, Bagley, Helm)
Plus various patrol and support ships based in the Philippines
plus gunboats of Yangtze Patrol being moved to Philippines in September 1941

In the event of a war with Japan, the cruisers and submarines of the Asiatic Fleet will do as much damage as possible to Japanese warships and shipping before falling back to new bases

Pacific Fleet (Admiral Ernest King)
66 Catalina Flying Boats
22 Fleet submarines
Aviation Pacific Fleet (V Adm Bill Halsey)
CV Lexington, Saratoga, Enterprise (see above, but now all 3 ships have Wildcat fighters instead of Buffalos)
Cruiser Division 5 (R Adm Raymond Spruance) CA Northampton, Pensacola, Salt Lake City
Cruiser Division 6 (R Adm Frank Fletcher) CA Minnapolis, Astoria, New Orleans, San Francisco, CL Honolulu, Boise
Destroyer Squadron 6 (DD Selfridge, Mugford, Jarvis, Patterson, Ralph Talbot, Balch, Gridley, Maury, Craven, McCall, Dunlap, Ellet, Fanning, Benham

Aleutians Patrol (part of Pacific Fleet)
CL Raleigh plus 4 Wilkes/Clemson class destroyers plus various Coast Guard vessels

plus various craft and ships assigned to Western Sea Frontier
 
authors note: more modern ships in the Philippines as its a more creditable deterrent and a lot more submarines heading that way, every available old destroyers sent to the Atlantic to escort convoys

Note that there are more than enough minewarfare ships, old destroyers and Coast Guard ships to form coastal convoys on the US East Coast and Gulf of Mexico. More aircraft are needed everywhere of course. Not listed are the various converted yachts, gunboats etc on the East Coast as that will require a deeper dive into research and I am working on it

The Navy is the first service to enter almost immediate combat. I will post major forces for the Army (and Army Air Force) as they are relevant, and the same with the Marine Corps.

the 4th Marines is leaving China with the Gunboats, and while they will stay in the PI, the Marines are heading to Hawaii to assist King in garrisoning the islands he wants to garrison (Johnson, the Line Islands etc) above and beyond the Marine Defense Battalions for Wake and Midway
 
I can see that the altered circumstance adds to the appeal of building up Guam. If you can hold it and presumably Wake Island as well, it has all of the benefits others have noted. Still, It's a fairly good-sized island (210 sq mi./540 km sq). That would require a fair-sized force to hold against a determined assault. Post Pearl Harbor, there was no way that it could be prepared or defended. Could it be made ready here?
It is beyond any hope of resupply with the priorities in Europe being the highest. War Plan Orange remains the effective plan now for the Pacific... calling for the US Navy to take it back 2 years after war start. Wake is about the furtherest that can be resupplied as the Fleet operating from Pearl Harbor can reach it without requiring forward bases

Logistics are the key to this question

indeed its the main answer as to why the Philippines is doomed no matter what if the Japanese move south
 
Put a reinforced company of Marines on Guam, with lots of firepower, a squadron or two of fighters, another of dive bombers and one of Catalinas for recon and you chew up any IJN landing attempt. The whole point of fortifying Guam is to do it before hostilities with Japan commence, so you don't need to fight your way through to the base, it's already prepped and ready.
Essentially isn't that what was at at Wake? Plus it was one thing to run reinforcements into isolated islands like Wake and Midway; it is a very different level of risk to reinforce an island 100 miles away from other well fortified islands. I think going to Guam the Americans would have to assume that you would need to fight your way in and out. Plus the Japanese could easily mount a landing from Saipan at the time of their choosing.
 

nbcman

Donor
Huh? The CVs in the ocean with an active war get the oldest aircraft while bases and CVs in the ‘backwater’ get the more capable planes but insufficient screening vessels to support them and to cover all the shipping in the Pacific? Sounds like fodder for a Congressional investigation.
 
Huh? The CVs in the ocean with an active war get the oldest aircraft while bases and CVs in the ‘backwater’ get the more capable planes but insufficient screening vessels to support them and to cover all the shipping in the Pacific? Sounds like fodder for a Congressional investigation.
If all you are doing is ASW and chasing off recon planes you don't need the latest and greatest planes. If you are deterring Japan which has carriers , you need modern planes
 
Did the older subs have the torpedo problems of the new ones, or were they like the 4-pipers with older but actually reliable torpedoes?
OTL they used the old Mark 10's not the newer and in need of fixing Mark 14's, so a win by accident for the USN.
 
If all you are doing is ASW and chasing off recon planes you don't need the latest and greatest planes. If you are deterring Japan which has carriers , you need modern planes
It really depends on what the plan for the USN in Europe is. Does the RN want American carriers in the Med/Home Fleet, or doing ASW/raider hunting in the Atlantic(which wasn't a great strategy as the British established after Courageous got torpedoed and Ark Royal nearly suffered the same fate)?
 

nbcman

Donor
If all you are doing is ASW and chasing off recon planes you don't need the latest and greatest planes. If you are deterring Japan which has carriers , you need modern planes
This is 1941. BBs were moved to PH in late 1940 to deter Japan. Now they are all shifting to the Atlantic. So there now is no deterrent. 3 CVs and a handful of other ships aren’t deterring the IJN period.

EDIT: this is a destabilizing move and will embolden Japan. I expect an early attack with a 4 or 5 CV KB since there’s no real opposition in the Pacific.
 
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It is my understanding that the US Navy had a lot of ships mothballed after WW1. If that is true, can the US Navy activate those mothballed ships to get more convey escort ships faster than building new ones?
 
This is 1941. BBs were moved to PH in late 1940 to deter Japan. Now they are all shifting to the Atlantic. So there now is no deterrent. 3 CVs and a handful of other ships aren’t deterring the IJN period.
As the OP noted they are seen as scouting units to act as a tripwire to detect any planned attacks rather than to fight battles , thing about the Panama Canal is that it can swing ships quickly to the Pacific ( and the RN will point out there is not a lot most of those battleships can do in the Atlantic anyway due to a lack of targets so I'd expect most to switch back pretty soon , the whole plan reeks of more PR than long term)
 
It really depends on what the plan for the USN in Europe is. Does the RN want American carriers in the Med/Home Fleet, or doing ASW/raider hunting in the Atlantic(which wasn't a great strategy as the British established after Courageous got torpedoed and Ark Royal nearly suffered the same fate)?
Was thinking more as acting as a cover force for high value convoys rather than hunting which as you say the RN had already worked out was a bad idea.
 
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