Q-Bam Historical Map Thread
- Thread starter The Alternative
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Hmmm It's a good map but I don't think it gives any new information to be honest. The Omniatlas map is usefulFound this, supposed to be 1905, might help
Could be one of the best representation of the Carolingian Empire I've seen on this site, and the best of this format. I'd say that Kent should be shown as tributary and Brittany shouldn't, but that varied according to the years, and actual influences in the area are not so clear, so your guess is as good as mine.
Great job!
I wasn't sure about Britanny either, since nothing actually mentions any real campaigns against them, but then Louis the Pious ended up appointing Nominoe, the dude who founded Brittany, as the overseer, which I'm 50% sure means that they had actually had them as tributaries.
Why would kent be though?
Great! Although the "Hispanic March" was constituted by vassal counties (Urgell, Aragón, Barcelona, Sobrarbe...) and was not a directly administered province.
That's actually speculation form the Archaeological Museum of Kent, based on some continental items, and a piece on a document claiming a Regnum Cantiae as a subject to the authority of Louis the Pious, which has been interpreted as Kent.
But then, that's rather flimsy evidence, so maybe some research into Kent's history would be required, just to be sure.
Would anyone be able to map a Q-Bam of the administrative divisions of the medieval Kingdom of Georgia during the Georgian golden age? I saw a good map on wikipedia, but I don't think I would personally be good enough at making an accurate patch myself.
Not English, but a little bit related, I've got the Dutch in North America. Dunno if this'll be of any use or not
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It's hard to pinpoint something like that down, as different societies throughout time have their own form of state structures and borders. If it helps out, the best way I have understood old borders is that they really didn't exist unless there was a major geological obstacles, like a river or mountain, that was demarked as such, but even then it's still somewhat undefined. How I have come to understand it is that there were centers of power/society, such as cities, towns, citadels, etc. that power was vested in, and property was not nearly as well defined as it is in the modern day. In addition, older states were more invested in organized movements, such as the Safaviyya movement or Red Turban rebels, or something simple as an army, king, or clergyman. But in general, the old days of states were deeply rooted in non-sovereign concepts, which is why when Westphalian principles start to be applied, nationalism becomes the dominant force in determining state concepts and values.
Here's some questions to think about:
How far does an ancient city's administrative jurisdiction reach? Do the people outside pay taxes to them? Do they form their own laws? If you own property outside of said city limits, does the city have the legal right to administer it? Does Constantinople extend all the way to the Anastasian wall or just the Theodosian walls? Can certain places be co-ruled by different administrative centers?
It's very specific I know, and I'm far from being an expert in this area. The only reason I've even looked into it at all is because when Rome was conquering the Greek city-states, not all the city-states were necessarily "conquered", or they don't have a listed date when they were subjugated.
youd have to have a bunch of different maps or layers, to depict overlapping systems of authority. but it would be a worthwhile endeavor non the less. no clue how youd go about creating a universal system for that. you’d probably have to start with creating a bunch of localised ones to know what data you are working with.
i have maps that are privately on my pc where the colouring scheme ends up a mess because of how many different things in trying to depict and its a nightmare trying to keep it all in my head to figure out how to flatten it into one consistent system.
i have maps that are privately on my pc where the colouring scheme ends up a mess because of how many different things in trying to depict and its a nightmare trying to keep it all in my head to figure out how to flatten it into one consistent system.
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What you wrote pretty much lines up with what I've read and been trying to think about. The question about how far a city's jurisdiction extended and that being the basis by which to judge 'state control' in early societies is the root of what I've been trying to represent on a map. Tonight, I finally sat down and tried to represent what a possible system of could look like. Of course, this system would need to define precisely what each color means and have a way of determining how far a city's control extended in certain terrain, but the vague idea here is the darkest color is cities directly under the administrative control or suzerainty of the sovereign/ruling body (in this case, the Byzantine Emperor in Constantinople).
I used the QBAM terrain map people in conjunction with this map of Byzantine population centers in 780CE, and tried to represent the centers of power in the cities with control weakening (colors getting lighter) the farther from these centers you go. For instance, Sicily has bright colors concentrated around Byzantine settlements, and the colors mostly are quite bright in the low lying grasslands, but slowly get more washed out as it goes into the mountains and foothills in the center of the island, which is probably fairly true to the administration at the time. Cities like those dotting the western Italian coast are in light shades because they were only loosely under Byzantine suzerainty in this period.
The colors dotting the mountains of eastern Anatolia represent the line of Byzantine forts guarding the passes into the Taurus mountains. This system would require a lot more research and effort than copying old atlases, but it sort of scratches the itch and is at least more accurate to the political systems of the time than drawing them like modern states with demarcated borders. I do forsee problems with trying to represent subordinate but independent polities and all the things that traditional schemes are quite good at, and maps with multiple polities would get really confusing but I'll cross that bridge if I get to it. I'll try to develop a full map to showcase and see if I should try and take it further.
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very interesting approach. also it makes the map look like its water colour painted which is pretty. i suppose it also depends on how important a cities reach was for subjecting people to state power in a given time and place. like in feudal western europe for example, manors might be more important nexuses of control. by thier very nature, every map must be a compromise, its just figuring out what to show and how. i wish there were professionals we could talk to about this instead of us all just plodding along with what we can find. because these are two very seperate skill sets/ knowledge bases we are trying to tie together here. geography/ cartography and history/sociology. i mean theres also that desire for things to be precise, and systematic which isnt really feasible. its going to be an art nomatter what.
Another small thing to take into consideration is the system of landowership that they used. Aka, feudalism. A poor-countryborn peasant may not care much for the city nearby, but he may care about his landlord who owns the land the peasant lives and works on, and in turn that landlord may pay homage or have a subordinate relationship to a particular city.
In an ideal world, this would be awesome, but I can already foresee the issues of having to deal with little to no data, as well as figuring out when to switch from this way of mapping to the modern borders style, and even at this time there were sometimes very hard limits (along mountain ranges or rivers).
I guess this would work for highly urbanized societies but what of Rural and Tribal(or partially Tribal) states like the Almoravids or the Caliphate?. Even the Byzantines too might have more tribal/rural subjects like possible the Isurians.
Well, either way, at least we got an approximate way for mapping control in Urbanized societies.