Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by Beedok, Jun 15, 2014.

  1. Chris S Member

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    I dunno.....Somalia seemed to suggest that theory has its limits considering that in Somalia they were all of the same ethnicity, language and religion and the country went from the 1950s-1980s period of attempting to unite all Somali-inhabited lands (hence the Ogaden War), to being torn apart by civil war with one major area (Somaliland) actually declaring and retaining (unrecognized) independence.
     
  2. Skallagrim Not the one from YouTube. Different other fellow.

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    That really just proves that homogeneity isn't a guarantee for success-- which I didn't claim, either. All i'm saying is that cramming different groups who have a troubled history into one state has historically worked out poorly in virtually all instances. Especially if said state is an artificial construct that doesn't grant its inhabitants a shared past and "myth of shared identity", so to speak. To be clear: I'm not suggesting my view offers a panacea, but just that it would improve the situation in many OTL instances.

    My whole point, ultimately, was that the people offering suggestions for re-drawn borders aren't fundamentally wrong. Same way that people who have suggested border revisions throughout history haven't been fundamentally wrong. It's just that many plans for the Middle east, also just like many historical proposals for other regions, are good in intent and often inexact in their details. That is: you can't just draw an approximate line. You need to actually consider the exact situation "on the ground".


    Because of course the Middle east is blessedly free of ethnic cleansing and sectarian strife. Get real and stop posting straw men.


    Oh, they exist. Two out of three came into being due to the involved people(s) wanting it, and the third (India) was initially an artificial construct left-over from British imperialism... and then quickly separated into India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. Not without reason.


    You're only proving my point for me.

    At one time - not even that long ago - Bavarians and Prussians did predominantly speak quite different local languages. To the point where their respective rural inhabitants would not be able to comprehend each other. And during that same time, religion did in fact divide people something fierce. Now imagine some arrogant jack-ass from a distant land coming over and forcing them into one country with one central government and absolute majority rule and no options for secession. Well done, jack-ass, you've just caused a repeat of the Thirty Years' War.

    On the other hand... Arabs in the present of OTL are very divided on sectarian grounds, and several countries contain both Arabs and non-Arabs, leading to ethnic tensions... but if we don't force them into the straight-jacket of artificial union, they can easily do the same thing the various German peoples did in the 19th century. And a hundred years from now, people might then wonder at the fact that the Arabs were ever so divided against themselves at all, and over matters that may by then be seen as utterly trivial.

    But in both cases, the key point is that the people involved do it themselves. That some arrogant jack-ass doesn't try to force it. And we, Europeans, have forced union on many other peoples in OTL. That was a mistake in nearly all cases, and it has caused suffering in nearly all cases. I would prefer it had not been that way, and the fact that you appear have such problems with people who express that wish baffles me.
     
  3. Chris S Member

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    Okay. Those are well made points.
     
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  4. Thon Taddeo Well-Known Member

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    Dec 23, 2008
    [​IMG]

    Map of various proposals of the border between China and Tibet from the 1914 Simla conference. The Chinese never accepted the final Simla accords, because they granted too much autonomy to Tibet. Britain and Tibet later came to an agreement by which Tibet ceded large areas in the Himalayas to India, which is the source of the Sino-Indian border dispute in the region.
     
  5. Vuu Resident Serb expert Banned

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    Unions often have to be forced in a way - the Germans only managed it after a few bloody tries - we'll probably do that too, but here everyone often jumps on the bandwagon, stopping all the slaughtering at the worst possible time, when everyone's too much into it, making everyone thoroughly pissed latter because nothing was decisive. Let it burn itself out and see that the forest is fertilized

    Yes, NATO + vassals, I'm looking at you.
     
  6. UrbanNight Well-Known Member

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    Mar 20, 2014
    New England New State Map 1920.jpg

    Map of the proposed New State from New South Wales in 1924.
     
  7. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

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    Napoleon III apparently directly promised the land to Switzerland but renegaded on it. Also, anyone have any idea what parts of Belgium or German Napoleon III wanted? He apparently wanted to trade Belgium some Flemish land for a bit of there, and was apparently expecting some concession by Prussia for not getting into the Austria-Prussian War.
     
  8. LSCatilina Vassican Labosiotos Vergagnatos

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    It was more vague and short-lived : as there was a certain political wavering in late 1859 and early 1860, with France withdrawing from the war in Italy, and with some Swiss politicians willing to enforce the possibility opened by the 1815 treaties on Chablais and Fucigny, Napoleon seems to have considered the possibility of letting them just do this. But giving the relative hostility of local population on a territorial dismemberment and the risk seeing this appearing as a victory of anti-bonapartist and liberal French tendencies (which fueled a lot of political hostility in both Nice and Savoy) and seeing nobody would really mind him doing so, he just went with the original plan.

    It's both more simple and complicated : there wasn't a clear idea of what was obtainable or even thought to be obtainable by Napoleon III but a fairly vague and broad horizon (whom vagueness was entrained by Bismark's own diplomacy but as well hesitations) : now it was mostly based on 1814 borders , with the addition of Luxembourg and a possible extension from there (especially on the Palatinate).
    Truth is, Napoleon III wasn't really that interested taking on Belgium as such, and possibly rather searched a favorable strategical-political position on its neighbors (maybe trying to establish its hegemony) : he knew too well that anything more would have been a big no-no with London something he neither needed or wanted. Of course, if he could take back the 1814 borders in Belgium all the better, but it wasn't really much of a focus compared to the possibilities on Rhineland.

    As for trading parts of Flanders, it's the first time I hear about this : giving that the whole question was excessively blurry, and giving it would be against the general tendencies of Napoleonic diplomacy and politics, I find this particularly surprising. Where did you found this?
     
  9. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

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    I read about it in the past, though online. I imagined it was seething like returning the lands given to the Netherlands after Napoleon I's Hundred Days, as well as giving France Luxembourg and a bit of Belgian Luxembourg to round it out, though looking up the Luxembourg Crisis it seems that I was remembering thigns in the wrong way, with a diplomat suggesting Belgium get Luxembourg while giving France land elsewhere, which the Belgian king refused.
     
  10. Alex Richards A mapper I, from near Dar-bai. Donor

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    Interesting. I'd come across references to the Chablais being claimed in 1815 but not the rest of it.
     
  11. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    Today, I learned about the Allon Plan, to partition the West Bank.

    [​IMG]

    So much border gore...
     
  12. Clandango Disestablishmentarianist

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    Oooh, seems the plan has a Druze State for the Golan Heights. Just think of of it connecting to Jabal Al-Druze in southern Syria, or to the one and a half million Druze in central Lebanon. I can only see peace and love coming from all of this.
     
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  13. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    Yes, there's no way this could possibly go wrong.
     
  14. Drex Alférez de caballería

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    So this is a patch of the proposed states of Brazil. I got the information from this map, however I couldn't find anything about São Paulo do Oeste.

    Proposed States of Brazil.png
     
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  15. Analytical Engine Monarchist Collectivist Federalist

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    How many of those northern states have more than three guys, a dog, and a gazillion snakes?
     
  16. Drex Alférez de caballería

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    I think the main reason behind these break-ups is to have an easier access to a state capital and thus the governemnt itself thou'. If you want snakes, Brazil has an island with a shit ton of them.
     
  17. LouisTheGreyFox The Hyperactive Furry Historian

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    I heard at one point during the early 1920's or 1930's (I can't remember) there was a proposal and I believe a voting referendum in which the region of New England (The one in New South Wales) to become a new state in Australia. Perhaps this is a map of it?
     
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  18. LouisTheGreyFox The Hyperactive Furry Historian

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    How many states would that be in total???
     
  19. Camelopardalim Ministre-President de la Syldavie

    If anyone is looking for more maps of proposed Australian states, this PDF has a whole bunch of them. Here's a few maps I screenshotted:
    2018-09-28 montage.png

    These first two are combinations of proposals which seem to have popped up quite often: the division of Queensland into three states by latitude, and the secession of New England and the Riverina from New South Wales (the Western state only appears in these two maps, though - other maps keep a rump NSW, with Riverina not extending so far north along the coast).

    2018-09-28 (1).png

    There are a few proposals to reorganise the North in order to encourage development, but I'm posting this one because it's uniquely weird in just how many states Holmes wants to put in such an underpopulated area.

    2018-09-28 (8).png

    This map was part of an idea to not just break up the states, but also transfer state powers to the Commonwealth, believing that states should have powers more like the ACT (i.e. no Governors, state legislatures can be overruled by the Federal Parliament or the Governor General, the Federal Parliament can make laws in any area with no exclusive state competencies, the state government takes on local government powers) - essentially proposing that Australia become a centralised state rather than a federation.
     
  20. Flashman A Real Go-Getter

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    New New South Wales?

    ... I'll see myself out.