Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread

[LSCatilina]

This confuses me. I thought all the USSR wanted was the Finnish territory closest to Leningrad. When did they decide to throw that out the window and plan to make Finland a puppet state?

Mostly when Finland didn't want to exchange territories, I'd think.

 

[Iserlohn]

This confuses me. I thought all the USSR wanted was the Finnish territory closest to Leningrad. When did they decide to throw that out the window and plan to make Finland a puppet state?

Also unless I'm mistaken the border there is more favorable when considering Leningrad than the interwar border was, though not as excessive as the post-war border.

 

[DrakonFin]

This confuses me. I thought all the USSR wanted was the Finnish territory closest to Leningrad. When did they decide to throw that out the window and plan to make Finland a puppet state?

Taking just a little bit of territory, as demanded before the Winter War, would have been just the first step in breaking Finland. Just like demanding bases from the Baltics was the first step for breaking them. The ultimate goal in 1939 was to conquer all of Finland as a puppet state under Kuusinen et al, to give it the borders outlined in the map, and (just like the Baltics) in the near future annex it into the USSR after the new "people's government" would practically beg for it.

 

[Bleh]

While looking for maps of the Sikh Empire on Google Images, I found some... interesting South Asian irredentist maps.

It seems to me that having a Jain state wouldn't really make much sense and that Jain nationalism is sort of oxymoronic. What use would Jains have for a monopoly on force if they would never use it?

 

[Skallagrim]

It seems to me that having a Jain state wouldn't really make much sense and that Jain nationalism is sort of oxymoronic. What use would Jains have for a monopoly on force if they would never use it?

Leaving the peculiars of its creation aside for a moment, we should keep in mind that a Jain homeland wouldn't have to be a Jain state, as such. It could just end up being what essentially amounts to a very large exercise in religious anarcho-pacifism. From an AH perspective, it might be interesting to consider the idea. Still, that would bring us back to the matter of how it would come about. Jains themselves seem little inclined to even want such a thing, as their religious devotion allows them to be spiritually free of whatever "shackles" the realities of living in an existing state places upon them. Since they aren't a threat, reasonable people have little urge to support a Jain homeland just to be rid of them, and unreasonable people (unfortunately) are far more likely to go about killing them, rather than segregating them into their own region.

(This has been a long way of saying that I agree with you in practice, but that the concept would not have to be inherently oxymoronic.)

 

[Bleh]

Leaving the peculiars of its creation aside for a moment, we should keep in mind that a Jain homeland wouldn't have to be a Jain state, as such. It could just end up being what essentially amounts to a very large exercise in religious anarcho-pacifism. From an AH perspective, it might be interesting to consider the idea. Still, that would bring us back to the matter of how it would come about. Jains themselves seem little inclined to even want such a thing, as their religious devotion allows them to be spiritually free of whatever "shackles" the realities of living in an existing state places upon them. Since they aren't a threat, reasonable people have little urge to support a Jain homeland just to be rid of them, and unreasonable people (unfortunately) are far more likely to go about killing them, rather than segregating them into their own region.

(This has been a long way of saying that I agree with you in practice, but that the concept would not have to be inherently oxymoronic.)

I suppose they could have a homeland but it would need to be policed and protected by an outside force, so I suppose some sort of vassalship would work. Still, I imagine many Jains would despair somewhat at having a homeland violently maintained for their purposes (assuming anyone who isn't Jain lives there/were removed).

 

[Drex]

Don't know if this qualifies as a proposal, but hey, here's Occiberia.

The legend says:
True Occiberia
Regions that in antiquity were Occiberian during a brief time
Regions that in antiquity were partially Occiberian
Regions of Occiberian influence

Tbh I have no idea what language or mix of languages that's written on.

 

[rvbomally]

Leaving the peculiars of its creation aside for a moment, we should keep in mind that a Jain homeland wouldn't have to be a Jain state, as such. It could just end up being what essentially amounts to a very large exercise in religious anarcho-pacifism. From an AH perspective, it might be interesting to consider the idea. Still, that would bring us back to the matter of how it would come about. Jains themselves seem little inclined to even want such a thing, as their religious devotion allows them to be spiritually free of whatever "shackles" the realities of living in an existing state places upon them. Since they aren't a threat, reasonable people have little urge to support a Jain homeland just to be rid of them, and unreasonable people (unfortunately) are far more likely to go about killing them, rather than segregating them into their own region.

(This has been a long way of saying that I agree with you in practice, but that the concept would not have to be inherently oxymoronic.)

Having a doctrine which mandates pacifism hasn’t stopped other groups from forming states and conducting violence.

 

[LSCatilina]

Don't know if this qualifies as a proposal, but hey, here's Occiberia.

It's a map that is essentially more troll than anything else, slightly more extreme and silly than maps in Valencian showing maps of "Occitania" covering both Valencian Country, Catalonia, most of Oc regions because "we're not a Catalan language, we're an Occitan language just like Catalan or Provencal") like this one

Note : the translation rather is, IMO (de raso meaning probably "plainly", "antiguedat" meaning both Antiquity and formerly)

- Regions that were formerly fully Occiberic
- Regions that were formerly partially Occiberic
- Regions of Occiberic influence

Tbh I have no idea what language or mix of languages that's written on.

It's Aragonese.

 

[LSCatilina]

@Drex
I think even this map by fringe lunatics of the Vasconists sphere, themselves rather a fringe within the Gasconist movement, which is itself a fringe of anti-Occitanist regionalist movements...have more audience.

It's basically "Basques and Gascons, together in a same country".

 

[Luminous]

@Drex
I think even this map by fringe lunatics of the Vasconists sphere, themselves rather a fringe within the Gasconist movement, which is itself a fringe of anti-Occitanist regionalist movements...have more audience.

It's basically "Basques and Gascons, together in a same country".

No one's spick as Gascogne
No one's quick as Gascogne
No one's border's as incredibly thick as Gascogne
For there's no nation quite half as manly
Perfect, a pure paragon
You can ask any Gaul, Scot, or Saami
And they'll tell you whose alliance they prefer to be on

Gascogne:
When I was a county, I ate four dozen towns
Ev'ry morning to help me get large
And now that I'm grown, I eat five dozen towns
So I'm roughly the size of the Raaaaaj

 

[Etruscan-enthusiast35]

No one's spick as Gascogne
No one's quick as Gascogne
No one's border's as incredibly thick as Gascogne
For there's no nation quite half as manly
Perfect, a pure paragon
You can ask any Gaul, Scot, or Saami
And they'll tell you whose alliance they prefer to be on

Gascogne:
When I was a county, I ate four dozen towns
Ev'ry morning to help me get large
And now that I'm grown, I eat five dozen towns
So I'm roughly the size of the Raaaaaj

I never knew I needed that in my life, but now I'm glad that I do.

 

[Crying]

It seems to me that having a Jain state wouldn't really make much sense and that Jain nationalism is sort of oxymoronic. What use would Jains have for a monopoly on force if they would never use it?

You could theoretically have a group who wants to monopolise force, but never use it, so that someone else can't monopolise force and use it (against them)

 

[Drex]

Note : the translation rather is, IMO

Probably I messed up with the first given I got stuck between inspiring myself from Valencian or Castilian.

Anyhow, after seeing that map of Occiberia I searched through the net and saw different irredentist or separatist claims within Spain, so I compiled them in a map. Of course, some of them are more troll than real.

Spoiler: Map description

Andalusia:
Layer 1: Modern Andalusia
Layer 2: Ceuta, Melilla and Gibraltar
Layer 3: Murcia
Layer 4: Algarve and the Alentejo (well, most of it) a.k.a. Portuguese Andalusia
Layer 5: Other adjacent territories in Spain and Morocco

Navarre/Basque Country:
Layer 1: Modern Navarre
Layer 2: Upper Navarre (France, divided in 1512)
Layer 3: Basque territories
Layer 4: Castilian territories with former Basque presence
Layer 5: Ancient Basque-Aquitanian territories

Galicia:
Layer 1: Modern Galicia
Layer 2: Galician-speaking territories in Asturias and León
Layer 3: "Southern Galicia". Territories down to the Douro
Layer 4: Portugal (including Olivença)

Asturias/Leon:
Layer 1: Modern Asturias
Layer 2: León
Layer 3: Leonese-speaking territories in Portugal
Layer 4: Adjacent territories claimed
Layer 5: Former territories of the Kingdom of Leon (and to get an access to the sea in the south)

Castile:
Layer 1: Old Castile
Layer 2: New Castile and La Rioja
Layer 3: León, Cantabria and Utiel-Requena
Layer 4: "Greater Castile", including Castilian-speaking Basque Country, Extremadura and Murcia
Layer 5: Asturias, Andalusia, Alentejo, Algarve, former Castilian Valencia, Ceuta, Melilla and Gibraltar
Layer 6: The rest of the Iberian Peninsula, including Basque and Catalan territories outside of it. Oh, and also the Rif.

Catalonia:
Layer 1: Modern Catalonia
Layer 2: Catalan-speaking territories adjacent to Catalonia
Layer 3: Fenolleda (Occitan-speaking Northern Catalonia)
Layer 4: Catalan (or so)-speaking territories: Valencia, Balearics and Alger
Layer 5: The rest of Valencia
Layer 6: The former crown of Aragon, including Septimania

Aragon:
Layer 1: Modern Aragon
Layer 2: Lands claimed by Aragonese regionalists (Aragonese Navarre and Aragonese-descended Valencia)
Layer 3: Former crown of Aragon
Layer 4: Navarre and other adjacent territories

Valencia:
Layer 1: Modern Valencia
Layer 2: El Carxe (Valencian-speaking Murcia)
Layer 3: Catalan (or Valencian)-speaking territories south of the Ebro
Layer 4: The rest of Catalonia and the Balears
Layer 5: Aragon, Murcia and the Turia-Júcar watershed

Murcia:
Layer 1: Modern Murcia
Layer 2: Lands of the former Kingdom of Murcia
Layer 3: Albacete (was part of Murcia until the 80's)
Layer 4: Other parts of Valencia that were Murcian
Layer 5: Almeria and Alicante

 

[LSCatilina]

Spéciale décidace to @Alex Richards

Projects of reunion to Switzerland of Chablais and Faucigny (possibly Carouge) parts of Savoy, in one or two new cantons. These regions were supposed to be militarily occupied by Switzerland in case of territorial threat by the Treaties of 1815, making the "neutralized zone of Savoy".
In 1860, some prospects were made into annexing this region as France was taking over Savoy, but local population was at best uninterested, at worst hostile.

Proposed cantons were either on Chablais and Faucigny either forming two cantons (first map) of forming one sole canton and Carouge being tied to Geneva (second map)

 

[LSCatilina]

Map of Syria, Iraq, Arabia and Libya as envisioned by Robin Wright in 2013

 

[Faeelin]

City states? God he's dumb.

 

[Crying]

I'm beginning to see a connection between 'people who don't understand the Middle East' and 'people who think the Middle East should be broken up into small countries'.

 

[Kibbutznik]

You, a geopolitical plebe: We should consider the culture and etymology of the subject national group to determine what monicker their hypothetical country would ha-

Me, The Expert: ATTACH -STAN TO LITERALLY EVERYTHING.

 

[Skallagrim]

City states? God he's dumb.

No-one could ever be dumber than the barbarians who hate city-states. City-states are awesome.

(In case of Baghdad, which is right there between the sunni and shi'a areas, and has both populations represented within it, I can certainly see the logic of making it a city-state if you decide to divide Iraq into multiple countries...)

I'm beginning to see a connection between 'people who don't understand the Middle East' and 'people who think the Middle East should be broken up into small countries'.

The big problem is that the borders are often poorly drawn. It's easy to be haughtily dismissive about attempts to create more homogeneous countries and to make sure people who hate each other with a passion aren't crammed into one country... if you're looking at it from the perspective of the West, which already went through that. Less than a century ago, irridentist claims based on ethnic interests were literally the thing that sparked World War Two. How was that solved? By re-drawing borders and - in many cases - mass deportations. Messy, but things have been a lot better in Europe since then. Except of former Yugoslavia, of course, where ethnic tensions and claims... oh. Wait.

I have no doubt that major border revisions could vastly improve the political situation in the Near East and Middle East. If you make sure that every group that ardently feels distinct and has trouble with the neighbours has its own country, you'll have a lot more peace and tranquility than you get when you force multiple such groups into one artificial country drawn up by colonialist rulers.

So, yeah. Break things up into small(er) countries. It really is the way to go.