I'm currently working on a alternate history timeline (mostly through drawing it) where the July crisis results in an isolated Austro-Serbian war. After skimming through this forum for a few hours, I've found many good posts about interesting consequences that could come from such a scenario. I have however not found any clear satisfactory answers to how this would occur, and what would be a good PoD for my timeline.

Of course, common answers such as Austrian demands being milder or Germany never having given Vienna a blank cheque or might have resulted in such a scenario. But to me, those feel like cop outs. The Austrian demands were the way they were for a reason, and to change that I feel like the PoD in any realistic scenario has to be far earlier than July 1914. In regards to the blank cheque, I feel similarly.

I've read somewhere a long time ago that the Hungarian government had vetoed any annexations of Serbian territory, and if only Austrian ambassador in Saint Petersburg Szapáry had told this to the Russian foreign minister, Austria would have the isolated war they wanted. I've also read, today, that Szapáry actually did say this to the Russian foreign minister in Saint Petersburg, and of course it therefore must have had no effect on Russian stance towards the conflict.

Is there any realistic way that Russia could have been made to call off their support of Serbia, that does not require a PoD before the assassination of Franz Ferdinand in late june? Or is the only real way to avoid WW1 (with a PoD in the summer of 1914) to save Franz Ferdinand from his untimely death in Sarajevo?

Thanks :^)
 
No.

Russia bet big on Serbia. They built the Balkan league to give them a network of Balkan allies. They let the league take apart European Ottomans and when the league fell apart they chose Serbia as their dance partner. They then built up relationships with Romania (pulling them from pro central power to pro entente) and allowed Romania Serbia Greece and Montenegro to pull apart Bulgaria.

There could be a scenario where Russia sought to choose Bulgaria as their main balkan partner during the Balkan wars but once Russia chose Serbia they are more or less stuck.

Unless Serbia identify themselves as a pariah state. I mean they were heading that way if people believed they were killing off Royalty. I mean if the Serbian ambassador to Paris or London got drunk and was bragging to the papers about Serbian operatives assassinating Franz Ferdinand maybe France and the British empire would tell Russia that they couldn't back them. Then Russia might step back and allow Austria vs Serbia. That is what it would take imo to allow a limited war.
 
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I'm currently working on a alternate history timeline (mostly through drawing it) where the July crisis results in an isolated Austro-Serbian war.
So what you want is a PoD that limits WW I...

One difficulty in reaching your scenario: if Serbia has no support from Russia or other any Great Power, would Serbia still fight? They can't possibly win by themselves. Futile but gallant resistance may be appropriate when the stakes are high enough, e.g. Finland in 1939. But Serbia was ready to yield on almost everything in the Austrian ultimatum; was the remainder worth a "last stand"?
 
if Serbia has no support from Russia or other any Great Power, would Serbia still fight?
We do have the answer to that. Without the support from Russia they would have accepted the full ultimatum according to their own government officials. Serbia was a state that sponsored multiple terror attacks on Albanian, Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian territory, but they were not suicidal that they thought they could actually face A-H on their own. Multiple times this scenario stood in front of them and each time they backed down(e.g. Bosnian Annexation Crisis, Balkan Wars).

There is no way to limit such a conflict with an easy PoD at that point of time. The international situation was fortified, the internal situation in Russia on edge, A-H wanted the conflict and aimed for it, with the remaining powers ready and willing to back their side and intervene. If the desire is for a limited war between these two powers, there is a need for an earlier PoD or you need something to happen that takes Russia out for the duration of the conflict. The Tsar dying with a succession crisis or his son perishing turns him into a reclusive. Or something else, which stops Russia from intervening outside their borders.
 

marathag

Banned
An attack of sanity in St. Petersburg, and decide that Serbia isn't worth a War with A-H and Germany, especially since Russia had no defense treaty with them, or even an official proclamation of a guarantee of Independence of Serbia
 
I don't think that it is easy or even possible avoid WW1 after Franz Ferdinand's assassination. I can't see there being way for purely Austro-Serbian War. Germany was ally of A-H so it hardly can just withdraw its support. And it knew that Russia must be put down now since it was industrialising itself rapidly and soon might had been difficult to defeat Russia. And Russia just can't withdraw its support from Serbia. And if Germany goes to action France is going to declare war thanks of its long-timed hatred towards Germany and alliance with Russia.

So best way would be just Franz Ferdinand not be assassinated. But probably you get still some Great War sooner or latter.
 
Make the Austrians go quicker and attempt to issue an ultimatum before they, themselves, are ready. If done fast enough people will still feel they have a point and justified. Meanwhile, Serbia may still miscalculate, hoping against hope that Big Brother Russia would come to the rescue, only to Russia to teeter away and leave them trapped.
 
One difficulty in reaching your scenario: if Serbia has no support from Russia or other any Great Power, would Serbia still fight? They can't possibly win by themselves. Futile but gallant resistance may be appropriate when the stakes are high enough, e.g. Finland in 1939. But Serbia was ready to yield on almost everything in the Austrian ultimatum; was the remainder worth a "last stand"?
We do have the answer to that. Without the support from Russia they would have accepted the full ultimatum according to their own government officials. Serbia was a state that sponsored multiple terror attacks on Albanian, Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian territory, but they were not suicidal that they thought they could actually face A-H on their own. Multiple times this scenario stood in front of them and each time they backed down(e.g. Bosnian Annexation Crisis, Balkan Wars).
The general outline for the scenario I had in my head was that Russia would still support Serbia, through diplomacy, sanctions and sale of war material. Basically, the war turns into a proxy conflict. I had assumed that in such a scenario, Serbia would have been forced to fight and could not back down. The Austrian ultimatum demanded the suppression of "all publications which 'incite hatred and contempt of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy' and are 'directed against its territorial integrity'" and that Serbia dissolve and suppress Serbian nationalist organisations; they basically demanded of the Serbian state that their state apparatuses were to be used to stamp out Serbian nationalism. No early 20th century balkan state would have accepted, except through force, that they themselves had to stifle and stamp out nationalistic sentiment in their own population. I have a feeling that on those grounds alone, accepting the Austrian ultimatum would have resulted in revolution in Serbia.

I don't think that it is easy or even possible avoid WW1 after Franz Ferdinand's assassination. I can't see there being way for purely Austro-Serbian War. Germany was ally of A-H so it hardly can just withdraw its support. And it knew that Russia must be put down now since it was industrialising itself rapidly and soon might had been difficult to defeat Russia. And Russia just can't withdraw its support from Serbia. And if Germany goes to action France is going to declare war thanks of its long-timed hatred towards Germany and alliance with Russia.
While I agree that in Germany, much of the leadership demanded war, Wilhelm II had a strong personality and could have thrown a spanner in the works. According to Wikipedia: "the German Foreign Ministry flatly stated the Emperor should continue his cruise because 'everything must be done to ensure that he [Wilhelm] does not interfere in things with his pacifist ideas'". Although I can't see Germany withdrawing its support from its ally fully, I could imagine German leadership (if Wilhelm returned to Berlin earlier) perhaps rescinding the blank cheque as tensions heightened, forcing Austria to deliberate and therefore Russia to postpone mobilization. There is at the very least realistic potential for Berlin to have deescalated the situation.

An attack of sanity in St. Petersburg, and decide that Serbia isn't worth a War with A-H and Germany, especially since Russia had no defense treaty with them, or even an official proclamation of a guarantee of Independence of Serbia
Yes, that's what I was hoping for as a good PoD. Not so sure what could trigger such an attack, though.
 
How about a dose of reality? The Russian Secret Police has the goods on the "Black Hand" and knows that an Serbian Goverment Member approved an hit on the Austrian Heir. They also know that the Austrian has found evidence of this too. Russia can't support those who break the rules of diplomacy. Serbia gets dumped like the bad apple they are and faces the Austrians without any allies
 
If you want a war between Austria-Hungary and Serbia, but not a wider European conflict, there's only one course of action that could make it possible: A-H needs to declare war immediately, without delay. There would be no time for any kind of ultimatum, or even for coordination with allies.

This would be an enormous gamble, without doubt. Acting without German approval would be extremely dangerous in the face of possible Russian intervention... or not. The truth is Germany was extremely isolated at the time and it simply couldn't afford to lose A-H as an ally. Considering how dangerous did Russia already seem, letting it and the Balkan states dismember Austria-Hungary was unthinkable from a German perspective. As such, no matter what the Austro-Hungarians do, the Germans have no other choice but to come to their aid when needed.

With that being said, there's an actual benefit (beside saving time) to not discussing anything with the Germans. The German confusion displayed at the time of the sudden Austro-Hungarian action could hardly go unnoticed by the French (and British). Considering that France had no disputes with Austria-Hungary, once it becomes clear that the Austro-Hungarians are not acting in concert with the Germans, French motivation to back a Russian intervention could become lacking. Admittedly, the French endorsement of the "Balkan inception scenario" a year or so prior makes this development rather unlikely, however the given circumstances (the murder of the Austro-Hungarian heir, Austro-Hungarian private action) might just prompt the French to act so regardless. Another thing to consider: With the war beginning before the French state visit to Russia, President Poincaré would not be able hijack the control of French foreign policy from PM Viviani like he did IOTL, so the more pacifistic Viviani might just steer French foreign policy in this direction.

Without explicit French support, the Russians might think twice about intervening in the Austro-Serbian conflict. Sure, it could possibly be known by that point that the Germans were not aware of and did not endorse the Austro-Hungarian plans, however the stance of Germany in the case of a Russian intervention would still be seen as uncertain. And without a German garantuee of non-intervention (which they certainly wouldn't give), the Russians would be less willing to act in absence of the support of their French ally.

Ofcourse, if even the Russian and French stances on the matter are uncertain, the British would be even less committed to conflict.

Also, needless to say, but A-H most definitely couldn't allow itself to blunder during the war with Serbia. The war would need to be short and decisive. The Russians and French would have to be provided with as little time to reconsider their positions as possible.


The absolute minimum requirement for this scenario necessitates a change in leadership in Austria-Hungary, however. Hungary needs to have a pro-war Prime Minister, at the very least.
 
I don't think that it is easy or even possible avoid WW1 after Franz Ferdinand's assassination.

Contemporary opinion took a different view... 😬

Archduke-Headline1.jpg
 
The absolute minimum requirement for this scenario necessitates a change in leadership in Austria-Hungary, however. Hungary needs to have a pro-war Prime Minister, at the very least.
Or just some way getting rid of Hungarian prime minister István Tisza, who was the only one in Vienna who was strongly opposed to war with Serbia. Seems like that scenario would require a PoD before june-july 1914 though.
 
I think the comments above are very good. I'll add that if you want a POD, one thing you can work with is the visit of the French President and Prime Minister to St. Petersburg in July 1914. The thing with this is that to this day we had no idea what they agreed to or discussed with the Russian government, but its hard to believe they didn't discuss the July Crisis. They probably gave Russia a blank check. And the President, Poincare, was known throughout his political career as being a hardliner against the Germans. So your POD is that they instead tell Russia to stand down for some reason.

There were also strikes and demonstrations in Russia at the same time, and that is something to work with. Maybe they convinced the Russian government that they couldn't back down in any foreign crisis at all because of domestic opinion. Maybe you could ratchet them up so that it is another 1905 and the Russian government can't afford to be distracted by foreign crisises.

I agree with the other commentators that, in contrast to the conventional narrative of the July Crisis, that Russia had more room to back down than Germany and Austria-Hungary. Except for the Bosnian crisis, it had usually been the Central Powers that backed down in previous incidents, and Germany was down to its last real ally, and Austria-Hungary was dealing with a strong possibility of foreign involvement in the asssasination to the heir to the throne. Neither Russia or France had anything like these stakes.

There is also the possibility of the British Foreign Secretary either making it clear either to France that Britain will stay neutral in any continental war, or to Germany that Britain goes to war with them if the Germans invade Belgium (the invasion was not really a surprise) or either the German army or navy go too far west, or both. Basically the exact opposite of what Grey did. The first course probably averts a continental war altogether, the second limits the fighting in the West to a big French offensive into Lorraine, and then stalemate until one of the sides involved in the conflict between Russia and the German powers, probably Russia, throws ino the towel. But you probably need to get a different Foreign Secretary than Grey to make that happen. I think the St. Petersburg summit is a better POD.
 

TDM

Kicked
How about the initial AH investigators find or are given some kind of incontrovertible proof that not only was there a direct link:

Young Bosnia - Black hand - Serb Military Intelligence - Serb Government.

But also that the Serb Government had given the order to kill AD-FF.

(OTL AH investigators found little/nothing).

This will make Russia backing Serbia very hard, and even if they choose to international support for them doing so even harder. On the other side of that coin international sympathy for the AH/German cause will be stronger with less international willingness to accept the Serbian response to the AH ultimatum and maybe also makes the 'H' half of AH move a bit faster politically
 
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Your other option is to avoid this particular war altogether and have another one in a couple years time, where diplomatic maneuverings have more firmly isolated Serbia. If cooler heads prevail in Vienna and a less absurd ultimatum is sent, Belgrade would probably accept. Later, chafing under it and seeing opportunity - perhaps when Franz-Josef dies, likely within a few years of when he did OTL given that he was very old - Serbia breaks the agreement and Austria-Hungary starts a war over it, possibly to distract from the Ausgleich negotiations and/or help pressure the Hungarians into giving ground.

By this point Russia may well be distracted by a internal matters - Aleksei is unlikely to survive all that long with 1910s medical science, and that will put the succession in question, since from memory Nikolai and Mikhail didn't get on all that well - France may very well have a new government and the Social Democrats are likely to be in government in Berlin, and Wilhelm is likely to be in Berlin as well, to interfere with his 'pacifist ideas'. Britain may have withdrawn from the Entente by this point too, seeing an industrialising Russia as a greater threat than Germany.
 
But also that the Serb Government had given the order to kill AD-FF. (OTL AH investigators found little/nothing).
Because there was nothing; "Apis" didn't tell the government what he was doing.

Scenario: Apis brags of what he's done and is hailed by nationalist fools. But the PM, being rational, offers his head on a plate to Austria (arrested with intent of extradition). Apis's fanboys stage a coup and liberate him, with cheering crowds.

The new regime of fools defies Austria's ultimatum. Russia says "You're on your own."
 
The general outline for the scenario I had in my head was that Russia would still support Serbia, through diplomacy, sanctions and sale of war material. Basically, the war turns into a proxy conflict. I had assumed that in such a scenario, Serbia would have been forced to fight and could not back down. The Austrian ultimatum demanded the suppression of "all publications which 'incite hatred and contempt of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy' and are 'directed against its territorial integrity'" and that Serbia dissolve and suppress Serbian nationalist organisations; they basically demanded of the Serbian state that their state apparatuses were to be used to stamp out Serbian nationalism. No early 20th century balkan state would have accepted, except through force, that they themselves had to stifle and stamp out nationalistic sentiment in their own population. I have a feeling that on those grounds alone, accepting the Austrian ultimatum would have resulted in revolution in Serbia.
Two things, they agreed to all demands including the ones you mentioned OTL, the only one they rejected was the one regarding A-H participation in the investigation and prosecution of the ringleaders in Serbia. Therefore, pointing to the others as the ones unlikely for them to accept is weird. You get that is weird, right?
I mean, you could point towards the document being deliberately fashioned in such a manner to seem to be as conciliatory as possible and not truly showcases their real intentions, but it doesn't look like that is your line of reasoning. And I would disagree with the notion of it being such big of a problem. The Balkan states always talked big, but the moment the Great Powers came knocking for payments or demands, they always backed down. From the concessions, Serbia and Greece made because of their financial situations to them giving up any red line they drew in the sand. How long did Greece not accept Crete? What did Serbia do against the Bosnian annexation when they loudly swore to fight to the death? States are normally not completely dislodged from reality.

Furthermore, as stated we know they according to their own statements that they would have accepted all demands if Russa hadn't signaled support to them. Additionally, I have to repeat myself Serbia was not suicidal. Without Russian support, and I mean boots on the ground, they would never engage A-H. Multiple times this threat was raised and each time Serbia backed down, because they knew they stood no chance. Fehervari is right on it, A-H needs to be the aggressor without any ultimatum or any way for Serbia to back down for things to turn to war. Else Serbia wouldn't go for it. They often talked a big game, but these propagandist statements were never meant to be taken to the extreme.

Another point that may change things, it is a PoD before the July crisis. There was a power struggle in Serbia between Pasic and Apis, which culminated near the end of May 1914, you simply have Pasic lose it. The new foreign minister would be Jovan Jovanović, the Serbian minister in Vienna, who was a classical ultra nationalist. With them in charge, you may get such a suicidal response you want.
But also that the Serb Government had given the order to kill AD-FF. (OTL AH investigators found little/nothing).
Gun from Serbian military stock, explosives from Serbian military arsenal and the assassins pointing towards the aide of the second most powerful man in the state. I wouldn't call it little or nothing.
Reconstructing the links with Serbia was more difficult. The weapons themselves were of Serbian make; the revolvers were manufactured under Serbian licence and the recovered bombs hailed from the Serbian state armoury at Kragujevac. On 29 June, Čabrinović named Ciganović as the man who had supplied the team with their guns and bombs in Belgrade. But Ciganović was a lowly figure in the network and in any case a Bosnian exile. Implicating him did not in itself point in the direction of official Serbian complicity. If Ciganović was, as the Italian historian Albertini concluded, working as Nikola Pašić’s agent and informant within the Black Hand, this role was informal and would have eluded even the most thorough investigation. The situation was different for Major Voja Tankosić, a Serbian national who was prominent in the partisan movement, and a personal aide to Apis, the chief of Serbian Military Intelligence. His name was volunteered by Ilić, who stated that Tankosić had not only provided the assassins with weapons, but had also trained them in marksmanship in Belgrade and issued the instruction that they should kill themselves rather than be taken alive. The Belgrade boys initially denied any knowledge of Tankosić; only after they were confronted one by one with Ilić (one of the very few occasions in which prisoner confrontations were used to elicit confessions) did Princip, Čabrinović and Grabež concede that Tankosić had been involved in the preparation of the plot. -Sleepwalkers P.III Chp.7
What is true is that the Austrians handled the investigation badly. Allowing Princip and Grabez to communicate in prison, giving them time to coordinate their stories...there is so much they could have done better, but I don't think a better investigation would have helped. The international situation was so that the other countries simply didn't care. The war wasn't about the assassination of the heir, but a typical conflict between Great Powers.
Because there was nothing; "Apis" didn't tell the government what he was doing.
Like seriously, this is too pedantic to stand on the point of Apis not telling equals them being unaware is ridiculous. Starting with Albertini's great work on the Origins of the War, which goes into length into the statement of a cabinet member of Pasic, which was Ljuba Jovanović the minister of education in the Pašić government, about Pasic what knew. That the man told them that he knew about people who were preparing to go to Sarajevo to kill Franz Ferdinand. Albertini goes even further and names the agent from which Pasic got the knowledge, namely Ciganovic.
The evidence for Pašić’s knowledge before the fact is discussed in Albertini, Origins, vol. 2, pp. 90–97 – Albertini focuses on the testimony from L. Jovanović, reinforced by the supposition that Ciganović was Pašić’s agent; Albertini’s collaborator Luciano Magrini added two further testimonies from Pašić associates, recorded during the war, see id., Il dramma di Seraievo. Origini i responsabilità della guerra europea (Milan, 1929), pp. 106–8, 114–16. The information available at the time is judiciously appraised in Sidney Bradshaw Fay, The Origins of the First World War (2 vols., New York, 1929), vol. 2, pp. 140–46; Hans Uebersberger, Österreich zwischen Russland und Serbien. Zur südslawischen Frage und der Entstehung des Ersten Weltkrieges (Cologne, Graz, 1958), pp. 264–5 supplements this evidence with a scribbled note in Pašić’s hand referring to ‘schoolboys’, ‘bombs’ and ‘revolvers’ found among the papers of the Serbian Foreign Ministry. Vladimir Dedijer’s extremely detailed account of the background to the plot, Road to Sarajevo, concedes that Pašić probably knew in advance of the plot, but proposes that he did so only because he was able to intuit its existence from the incomplete information he had to hand. The more recent accounts, including Friedrich Würthle’s very detailed Die Spur führt nach Belgrad (Vienna, 1975), offer a range of interpretations, but add no new evidence to this corpus. - Footnote 151 Sleepwalkers

The evidence for Ciganović’s role as informant is indirect but strong, see Bogičević, Procès de Salonique, pp. 32, 131–2; Fay, Origins, vol. 2, pp. 146–8; and Albertini, Origins, vol. 2, p. 98. Pašić’s nephew was also a member of Ujedinjenje ili smrt! - Footnote 152 Sleepwalkers
Additionally, we have statements from French and Italian sources, as well as Serbian officials that a warning regarding this incident was given to Vienna originating from Pasic.

Apis did not tell the government, but the government most definitely knew about it.
 
Two things, they agreed to all demands including the ones you mentioned OTL, the only one they rejected was the one regarding A-H participation in the investigation and prosecution of the ringleaders in Serbia. Therefore, pointing to the others as the ones unlikely for them to accept is weird. You get that is weird, right?
I mean, you could point towards the document being deliberately fashioned in such a manner to seem to be as conciliatory as possible and not truly showcases their real intentions, but it doesn't look like that is your line of reasoning. And I would disagree with the notion of it being such big of a problem. The Balkan states always talked big, but the moment the Great Powers came knocking for payments or demands, they always backed down. From the concessions, Serbia and Greece made because of their financial situations to them giving up any red line they drew in the sand. How long did Greece not accept Crete? What did Serbia do against the Bosnian annexation when they loudly swore to fight to the death? States are normally not completely dislodged from reality.
Theres a big difference between a state being forced to tolerate foreign control over land inhabited by people of that states foundational nationality, and a state being forced to persecute and censor nationalist sentiment in its own foundational ethnic group. The annexation of Bosnia (a region occupied by Austria for 30 years, which has never been part of any historic Serbian state and in which orthodox slavs constituted just under half the population) pales in comparison to the demand that Serbia not only cease all expansionistic ambitions, but persecute Serbian nationalists and Serbian nationalism itself.

You're probably right though that the Serbian government would back down if Russian support wavered. But even then, I can't imagine Serbia fulfilling the Austrian demands without mass protest, coup or revolution in Belgrade. Just 10 years earlier, their own king had been killed over nationalist concerns, right? Serbian society was clearly steeped in nationalism. Can't imagine that there would be a positive reaction in any part of that society if the government was forced to enact and implement the kind of censorship that Austria demanded.

Another point that may change things, it is a PoD before the July crisis. There was a power struggle in Serbia between Pasic and Apis, which culminated near the end of May 1914, you simply have Pasic lose it. The new foreign minister would be Jovan Jovanović, the Serbian minister in Vienna, who was a classical ultra nationalist. With them in charge, you may get such a suicidal response you want.
Thanks brotha, probably the best PoD yet :>)
 
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