Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles

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Part 56
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    • Lascaris

    Lascaris

    Vestfjord, 04:00, April 10th, 1940

    The 2nd destroyer flotilla was on its way to attack Narvik when it encountered the German destroyer force leaving Narvik for Germany. Neither side really expected an encounter at this point and the Royal Navy force with 5 destroyers was outnumbered two to one but this did not stop the British commander captain Warburton-Lee from attacking. Three German and two British destroyers would be sunk in the short action before the remaining German ships would manage to run away at 05:10 with the British ships in pursuit.

    Lofoten 11:00, April 10th, 1940

    The seven surviving German destroyers escaping Vestfjord had managed to join up with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau but the short encounter had given Renown and Repulse enough time to meet as well and the Germans had failed to shake off Warburton-Lee's surviving destroyers allowing the British to intercept the Germans. With a single light cruiser and a dozen destroyers, including 3 Tribal class ships the British clearly out-weight the 7 surviving German destroyers even though the German ships are individually much larger, while at least on paper Renown and Repulse are comparable to their German counterparts. Both battlecruisers have been modernized in the 1920s and again in the early 1930s, the start of the war has cancelled a planned thorough reconstruction of Renown, carry the same main armament and have comparable speed. It's true the German ships belt is much thicker but horizontal protection is supposed to be comparable. In reality for all their modernizations the British ships design predates Jutland and the German ships being of much newer construction hold a speed advantage besides being better protected.

    The battle does not start badly for the British. Scharnhorst receives several hits from Renown, first having her rear turret knocked out, then her radar, then a 15in shell punches through her armour and causes severe engine damage dropping her speed to 20 knots. Renown in turn has received two hits, that have not much affected her ability to fight, while the fight between Gneisenau and Repulse remains so far inconclusive. And then Repulse is hit by a 15n shell from Gneisenau, explodes and sinks with nearly all hands, the admiralty board of inquiry will determine afterwards that Gneisenau's hit led to an explosion of Repulse aft magazine. Then Gneisenau joins Scharnhorst against Renown which receives several hits and starts listing. With Renown in danger of being lost as well the British destroyers launch a torpedo attack against the German ships, managing to push through the destroyer screen. Scharnhorst her speed already reduced receives multiple torpedo hits, capsizes and sinks with Gneisenau and the three surviving German destroyers escaping south towards Trondheim.

    Churchill will write afterwards that the Royal Navy at Lofoten stayed true to its finest traditions which is certainly true, with the British destroyers managing to snatch victory from German hands, Wamburton-Lee will be awarded posthumously the war's fist Victoria cross for the sinking of the Scharnhorst. But it has been a pyrrhic victory. The Germans have lost Scharnhorst and four destroyers, The British have lost Repulse, Penelope, the destroyers Hardy and Acasta and will not manage to save Renown which is torpedoed and sunk by submarine U-64 on her way to Scapa Flow on April 12th. U-64 herself is sunk with all hands by Renown's escorts.

    Oslo, April 11th, 1940

    After some temporary repairs the heavy cruiser Blücher had been ordered back to Germany, for some reason without a destroyer escort. It had been a rather bad idea as Blücher was sunk by HMS Spearfish shortly after midnight.

    Narvik, April 11th, 1940

    The cruisers Devonshire, York, Berwick and Glasgow start landing 3,000 men to the north of Narvik. The German forces in the town, some 2,000 men were already under considerable pressure fighting against the Norwegian 6th division...
     
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    • CV(N)-6

    CV(N)-6

    R&R for a Twin is a good trade IMO, especially with the KGV's coming online sooner than OTL. I also assume that the sea state is better than OTL as it's a day later when the Germans were unable to use their forward turrets due to bad seaworthiness while Renown could fire a full broadside OTL?
     

    Anarch King of Dipsodes

    Sphenodon said:
    Finland retains Viipuri (for now)! Not necessarily huge in the global scale of things, but a very big butterfly for Finland. Between the 80,000-odd inhabitants of the city and those in the other parts of retained Karelia, the anti-Soviet war lobby is going to be substantially smaller in Finland when the Axis starts warring with the USSR. On the flip side, having one of their more prominent population and shipping centers essentially right on the USSR's border is going to be a terse thing in and of itself.
    Click to expand...
    (Emphasis added above) Does this phrase mean "(anti-Soviet war) lobby" or "anti-(Soviet war) lobby"?
     

    X Oristos

    There are a lot of tiny butterflies with significant potential effects.

    E.g. to quote from "Hitler's Preemptive War":
    The attack on the city of Kristiansand was repelled twice by its forts despite heavy shelling and air bombardment. The Norwegians believed that Allied assistance was on its way and a German signal flag was misread as the French tricolor during the third attack. The Germans were able to slip into the harbor and they quickly captured the city, forts, and naval units. The German light cruiser Karlsruhe was sunk by a British submarine on its return to Germany during the night of April 9-10.
    Click to expand...

    What are the chances with a POD in 1920, to have a Norwegian misread a german signal flag at April 1940?

    Also from the same book:
    The army staff was confused about the orders received from Minister Ljungberg. The order called for only a partial mobilization of units in southern Norway. The order did not include the 5th Division in Trøndelag or the 6th Division in North Norway. Full mobilization called for the activation of 66 infantry battalions, at least on paper. The procedures for full mobilization called for notification by all available means, including radio. In a partial mobilization, on the other hand, the 18 infantry battalions (plus artillery, cavalry, engineers, and support units) in the four divisions in South Norway would be notified about the call-up by mail.
    Click to expand...
    Granted though, the reserve battalions (other than the original 18) were not trained.
     
    Lascaris

    Lascaris

    Hmm this appears to have gone better than expected. Thanks everyone!

    1625340586631.png
     
    Lascaris

    Lascaris

    CV(N)-6 said:
    R&R for a Twin is a good trade IMO, especially with the KGV's coming online sooner than OTL. I also assume that the sea state is better than OTL as it's a day later when the Germans were unable to use their forward turrets due to bad seaworthiness while Renown could fire a full broadside OTL?
    Click to expand...
    Seen in retrospect it may well be. Seen at the time I suspect it may well be quite a bit of a shock, at Lofoten and Vestfjord the British have lost 2 battlecruisers, 1 light cruiser and 4 destroyers, with most of their crews. That's casualties running somewhere in the region of 3,000 killed in a single day, granted German losses are closer to 4,000 but this doesn't change the shock on the British side...

    r1ncewind said:
    will be interesting to see how much a public mobilization of norway will change things
    Click to expand...
    I'm not certain truth to tell and I've lost my old Norwegian sources from SHWI days, Vegard Valberg where art thou hiding ye damn Norse? On one hand the public, general mobilization should mean considerably less confusion. On the other hand the Germans are moving fast and up in the north Fleischer did mobilise anyway orders or no orders.

    X Oristos said:
    What are the chances with a POD in 1920, to have a Norwegian misread a german signal flag at April 1940?
    Click to expand...
    Why the town fell several hours late here. :p
    X Oristos said:
    Also from the same book:

    Granted though, the reserve battalions (other than the original 18) were not trained.
    Click to expand...
    The question is ok a general mobilization has been called. These are not instant things. They tend to take up from days to weeks to complete in 1940...
     
    Part 57
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    • Lascaris

    Lascaris

    Narvik, April 14th, 1940

    The battleships Warspite and Valiant, followed by over a dozen destroyers entered Ofotfjord opening up at the German positions in and around Narvik. Under the battleships fire the 27e Demi-Brigade de Chasseurs Alpins under Antoine Béthouart landed in Hakvik, unlike his British counterparts Bethouart had no issue to do an opposed landing. In the northern side of the fjord the British 146th brigade landed by cruisers in Harstad on the 11th advanced to Bogen, while the 24th brigade landed unopposed and advanced to the Labergdal pass while the Norwegian 6th division advanced to the Lapphag pass. The German forces, all of three battalions under general Dietl would be had pressed with a single battalion having to hold the coast against allied landings and the other two to hold the perimeter to the north against the British and Norwegians. An all out attack by the Grench and British would be launched on the 20th with the Norwegians launching their own attack on the 25th.

    Namsos and Andalsnes, April 18th, 1940

    The French 5e Demi-Brigade Chasseurs Alpins landed in Namsos while the British 148th landed in Andalsnes in an attempt to launch a pincer attack between then against Trondheim. It did not go well from the very start, with the Luftwaffe constantly bombing the allied forces on the ground and the allied fleets offshore. Worse get the British in Andalsnes had to rush to the Norwegians support in the south instead of attacking Trondheim as originally planned. While removing any chance of taking Trondtheim, the diversion failed to same the Norwegians either. Of the four Norwegian divisions in the south of the country 2 had already been destroyed by April 15th, the 1st being interned in Sweden and the 3rd surrendering to the Germans. 2nd division was fighting on but had been mauled by the German attacks and despite the British reinforcements and moving the 4th division from Bergen to its support appeared unable to hold back the German advance. Even after being reinforced by the British 15th infantry brigade thinks kept going back. Some start arguing that it was a mistake not diverting the 24th brigade from Narvik to Namsos back on the 14th , at the time it had been thought too risky, perhaps with good reason...

    Namsos and Andalsnes, May 3rd, 1940

    Allied forces at Andalsnes, had been evacuated already in April 30 and May 1st. Allied forces in Namsos now followed them. Luftwaffe air attacks would cost the Allies 2 destroyers but in total 11,284 men including 3,500 Norwegians had been successfully evacuated. But the success of the evacuation did not change the fact the operation had been a complete failure for the allies.

    Narvik, May 6th, 1940

    The Norwegian flag was raised over Narvik. The Germans had managed to hold for 17 days while allied forces were reinforced with the 13e Demi-Brigade de Légion Étrangère in April 28th and the Polish Samodzielna Brygada Strzelców Podhalańskich, the Independent Highland brigade on May 5th. Under relentless attack part of the German force had managed to escape into nearby Sweden, the Swedes would intern them for the time being, with the rest forced to surrender in Narvik. With Narvik liberated the allied position in Northern Norway appeared for the time being secure, 28,000 allied troops were available in Narvik which could be further reinforced by the forces evacuated from central Norway. German forces from Trodtheim were already advancing north but the distance to Narvik was 900 km. The allies were already setting forward positions at Mo-i-Rana and Bodo some 500 km from Trodheim in turn...

    Scapa Flow, May 8th, 1940

    Richelieu, Algerie and the 1st contre-torpilleur division with Aigle, Lion and Vauban came to join the Home Fleet. According to Allied intelligence Bismarck had just joined the German fleet, in reality it would not happen for a few weeks more, thus between Bismarck and Gneisenau the Germans had two fast battleships armed with 15in guns while following the loss of Renown and Repulse at Lofoten the only fast battleship remaining to the Royal Navy was HMS Hood. Hood had received a thorough modernisation in the past few years, but wasn't deemed sufficient to counter a breakout by both German ships, while following the catastrophic casualties at Lofoten there was some doubt Hood, even modernised unlike the two older ships, was a match for the Bismarck alone. But Richelieu, fast, heavily armoured and armed with 16in guns most certainly was...

    London, May 10th, 1940

    Victory in Narvik had not proved enough to save the Chamberlain government, with the rest of Norway lost and the war with Germany appearing to not be going anywhere. A three day debate in parliament had brought the cabinet under attack by Labour, the Liberals and even members of the Conservatives. With labour and the Liberals refusing to serve under either Chamberlain or Halifax a coalition government under Winston Churchill would replace Chamberlain's.

    Belgium, May 10th, 1940

    German invasion had begun with German paratroopers capturing the fort of Eben Emael overnight. The Belgian army was already mobilised since September and the French and British armies were already rushing in Belgium's support but not without troubles. Several hours had been lost for the border crossings between France and Belgium to be reopened and the roadblocks the Belgians had placed there to hinder an all too unlikely French advance into Belgium before French and British units could actually move into Belgium...
     
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    • CV(N)-6

    CV(N)-6

    Lascaris said:
    Scapa Flow, May 8th, 1940

    Richelieu, Algerie and the 1st contre-torpilleur division with Aigle, Lion and Vauban came to join the Home Fleet. According to Allied intelligence Bismarck had just joined the German fleet, in reality it would not happen for a few weeks more, thus between Bismarck and Gneisenau the Germans had two fast battleships armed with 15in guns while following the loss of Renown and Repulse at Lofoten the only fast battleship remaining to the Royal Navy was HMS Hood. Hood had received a thorough modernisation in the past few years, but wasn't deemed sufficient to counter a breakout by both German ships, while following the catastrophic casualties at Lofoten there was some doubt Hood, even modernised unlike the two older ships, was a match for the Bismarck alone. But Richelieu, fast, heavily armoured and armed with 16in guns most certainly was...
    Click to expand...
    So there's the Hood modernization. If France still falls it seems likely that detachment will go FF as well. I also bet that's totally not your plan for the ING... ;)
     

    goumaister

    Hoho!! Narvik is taken 20 days later!! And more defensive positions are established in the heavily mountainous terrain of North Norway. Now we didn't see any Allied order for retreat when OTL it was given before the Belgium invasion, so we expect a defensive force to fortify in Narvik and keep that port with the connection to Swedish steel. The problem is Luftwaffe. They have now a base in Trondheim and will make any defense and resupply in the North difficult. Let's hope than when push comes to shove the Allies retreat successfully, I strongly doubt that they can keep those positions with France falling although it definitely is not impossible. Anyways great update it seems we will have a very different WW2 from the start.
     

    X Oristos

    goumaister said:
    Let's hope than when push comes to shove the Allies retreat successfully, I strongly doubt that they can keep those positions with France falling although it definitely is not impossible.
    Click to expand...
    I think it is quite possible to hold Mo-i-Rana even if France falls. First of all, the front will be quite small - 14km as the crow flies (I take the lake in consideration as well). The mountainous terrain of the area is also great for defence.

    Since Narvik has fallen, there is a great political imperative for Britain to show its support. As I see it, success increases political commitment to Norway and at the same time it is more difficult due internal british politics to give up the only gain without a battle. "Under Chamberlain Narvik was conquered, the fresh Churchill government gave it up without a battle". It doesn't look well for Winston who was both a bellicose bulldog and was trying to also be seen as such.

    To hold the line there is the Norwegian 6th division. We haven't heard of the fate of the 5th division. Perhaps elements of it managed to retreat along the Allies. There is also a chance for parts of the 2nd and 4th divisions to be saved as well. The 2nd had 3 regiments and the 4th just two. The Norwegians lack both training and equipment. But even so, I think they can hold such a tiny frontline, along with a couple Allied brigade groups. The Guards and the Poles could be the short-term solution. In mid-term the Norwegians can receive new and more weapons while each passing month increases their battle experience.

    I do believe that supplying northern Norway will be much easier compared to the Malta Convoys. Geography dictates it. Moreover, it will be a challenge for the Germans as well to supply a Norwegian Campaign in the long term. Everything they need will have to come via the sea. There is a short route via the Skagerrak were they can defence more easily again british submarines and mines- although even that will be bloody. But as in OTL, the Germans will have to run coastal convoys up the norwegian coast- in RN and Coastal Command's backyard.

    There is also the cold calculation that every Luftwaffe squadron and every u-boat that try to interdict Allied communications in the Norwegian Sea, they won't be available to strike where it matters for Britain: the island itself and the Western Approaches. The British policy makers now that the enemy has finite resources. Especially if there are elements of the MN and the French Army that Fight On, there will be even less invasion panic in the UK.

    Therefore, I believe that it is more plausible to see a Norwegian Bridgehead than an ignominious evacuation.
     

    goumaister

    X Oristos said:
    Therefore, I believe that it is more plausible to see a Norwegian Bridgehead than an ignominious evacuation.
    Click to expand...
    Oh yes I totally agree. I just think that with the French surrender and Britain under direct attack and serious fear on land invasion they would need every available man. The Norwegians though can be buffed up and supplied well to resist and keep the line but that depends on German commitment. I mean the Germans have a year till the start of Barbarossa they can spare some division to close the Norway front to secure the Swedish steel that is vital to their war effort and here is the problem. The Germans won't stop attacking till they get that precious metal, without it they can't continue on schedule and they would need Barbarossa sooner. That is why I thought in the longtime Norway falls , like in September or November. The Brits will be occupied dealing with the Blitz and I really don't know the French troops actions it's dependent on the commanders. So the Norwegians would be alone in need of supply of food not only ammunitions.

    Anyway if they keep strong till the winter of 1940 they are safe IMO so it all depends on that.
     

    Aristomenes

    X Oristos said:
    I think it is quite possible to hold Mo-i-Rana even if France falls. First of all, the front will be quite small - 14km as the crow flies (I take the lake in consideration as well). The mountainous terrain of the area is also great for defence.
    Click to expand...
    Mostly it depends on how France will fall. If 1) more equipment is saved from a Dunkirk analogue ITTL, 2) When the mainland France falls, the government (or some infuential members of it) decides to fight on from the colonies and 3) the German victory costs more in blood and time, IF all of the above happen [or at least 1) and any of 2) and 3) ], then it is possible to hold Northern Norway, at least for some months.
    Don't forget that IOTL the British after Dunkirk did have men but they lacked massively in equipment. If they don't have equipment fo themselves, how are they going to equip the Norwegians?
     

    X Oristos

    @Lascaris we are at May 10th. May I ask if the RN got their head out of their behinds and sent the AFD no 8 to Alexandria?

    AFD no 5 could take ships up to 31,500 tons, so the Queen Elizabeths and Rs could be supported after they got a bit lighter. But idiotically keeping AFD no 8 in Malta meant that Alexandria could not host any bigger battleship during the war.

    goumaister said:
    Oh yes I totally agree. I just think that with the French surrender and Britain under direct attack and serious fear on land invasion they would need every available man.
    Click to expand...
    To be honest, I thought the same. Now I am not so sure.

    For example, the convoy that brought 15,000 Australians and New Zealanders in Britain was redirected there because the Admiralty thought that the crossing the Red Sea would be risky. The decision for it was taken on May 15th before they realized the gravity of the situation in France.

    Moreover, on August 10th before the Battle of Britain even entered its decisive phase, the British had decided to send to Egypt the following:
    3rd The King's Own Hussars (light tanks); 2nd Royal Tank Regiment (cruiser tanks); 7th Royal Tank Regiment (infantry tanks); 48 2-pdr anti-tank guns and 40,000 rounds; 20 Bofors light A.A. guns and 30,000 rounds; 48 25-pdr guns and 24,000 rounds; 500 Bren guns; 1 million rounds of .303-inch tracer; 250 anti-tank rifles; 50,000 anti-tank mines; 300 tons of spare parts, wireless equipment, etc.

    If they had the clarity and resolve to send 3 regiment of tanks (including one regiment of Matildas) even before the culmination of the Battle of Britain, then I think maintaining two or three infantry brigades in Norway is doable not just in material terms but also in psychological ones. The only thing lacking would be political will, something that can be easily obtained by capturing Narvik early on- the only Allied success.
     
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