Deleted member 94680
The nazi party changed their name to the national socialist workers party in 1920. Goebbels didn't join until 1924.
Nothing to Lose but Your Chains! / a German Revolution TL
- Thread starter Teutonic_Thrash
- Start date
Very well. But the reasoning behind said change (even without Goebells) would have been the same IMVHO.
Deleted member 94680
To widen their popular support? It would seem so, yes.
But the Strasser brothers, Röhm and a few others would indicate there was a definite “left wing” to the nazis - at least in the early days.
All of the socialist groups in Berlin believe in a socialist council democracy. The Communists believe that only revolution can achieve that goal, while the two Social Democratic parties (USPD and SPD) are mostly reformist. The ultra-left International Communists are opposed to cooperation with reformists. The most important (anarcho-)syndicalist organisation is the Free Association of German Trade Unions and, as you would expect, want a socialist system in which trade unions are dominant.
The Entente will get involved at some point but it won't be a very efficient intervention. Apart from the fact that the Entente have commitments elsewhere, the German military junta is just as opposed to capitulating to the Entente as they are to the socialists. Thus the cooperation between the two will be very poor, especially as the military junta is essentially fighting Poland.
Two points to note here: 1) the "left wing" of the Nazis were regular fascists in that their economic stance was essentially corporatism.
2) Some right wing Europeans in this period genuinely believed the current meme that socialism is when the government does stuff, so there was a plethora of far right parties with "social" or "socialist" in their name without any actual socialist policies to them.
Deleted member 94680
Well, yes, obviously. You’re not going to join or stay in a Party with Hitler, Göring, Goebbels and the rest in leadership positions if you’re not a fascist yourself.
The use of “socialist” in the party name should not be the only way to judge a party’s platform, I would’ve thought that much is obvious.
Actually, no. There was in fact an Ultra-Nationalist Anti-Capitalist/Oligarch/Corporate wing of the early Nazi party, philosophically lead by Strasser. Rohm and the SA were one of its last adherents...which meant they had to get purged once Hitler's oligarch backers said they uncomfortable. That he and many members of the SA had been gay was an added bonus reason for removal.
There is a reason I consider the often used square-like political compass to be inaccurate because it lacks the z-axis of nationalism×internationalism.
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They hated capitalism but left alone, they would have gone back to some feudal mess rather than forward.
tukaram bhakt
Banned
That's the difference
One wants to tear the system so we move forward, other wants to tear the system to move backwards.
The Merging of Central European Conflicts
The Merging of Central European Conflicts
The outbreak of civil war in Austria following the Anschluss declaration was complicated by the Italian occupation of Trent, Tyrol, and Istria, and the Slavic occupation of Carinthia and Lower Styria. Many members of the SDAPÖ had hoped that a smaller, more ethnically homogenous Austria would actually increase the likelihood of the Entente allowing German unification in the upcoming peace treaty; the German Revolution had arguably made such calculations theoretical however. Carinthia was protected by 2,500 soldiers of the Volkswehr, compared to 6,500 in Styria. However, the latter detachment were overwhelmingly loyal to the SDAPÖ, while the Carinthian Volkswehr were more heterogeneous in their political loyalties due to the threat posed by the approximately 4,500-strong army of Slovenes. With the beginning of hostilities between the SDAPÖ and the Christian Socials in early April, the Volkswehr in Carinthia descended into civil war; Hans Steinacher commanded the government loyalists against his erstwhile superior Ludwig Hülgerth.[1] On 10th April 2,000 Styrian soldiers were ordered to Carinthia to defeat the CS uprising. Two days later the Slovene soldiers under the command of Rudolf Maister took advantage of the turmoil and broke the ceasefire by advancing into Carinthia, easily taking Klagenfurt and Villach.[2] A simultaneous push towards Graz was defeated by the remaining Volkswehr however, who pursued the Slovenes to the outskirts of Maribor. The order from Army Secretary Julius Deutsch to go no further managed to get through to the Volkswehr in time; the SDAPÖ were still wary of antagonising the Entente too much, especially with French, Italian, and American forces in the region. The situation in Tyrol was substantially different. The 22,000 occupying Italian soldiers remained neutral, allowing the conservative militias to rout the paltry Volkswehr detachments and establish complete control of the region by 9th April. Commanded by the Christian Social jurist Richard Steidle, the conservative Standschützen were reinforced by right-wing refugees from Bavaria.
The Polish rebellion in Posen had settled into a stalemate since the German military coup. The Freikorps had scaled back their operations in anticipation of campaigning against the socialists, while Poland had been reluctant to send forces to assist the 70,000 soldiers of the Greater Poland Army because, during early April, a major offensive was planned against White Ukraine and the Bolsheviks. Lieutenant General Józef Dowbor-Muśnicki, commander of the Polish rebels, ordered a southern offensive on 5th April to link up with Ostrów; the Poles were victorious against the Freikorps divisions who were eager to fight the socialists instead. Encouraged by his success, Dowbor-Muśnicki planned more offensives for the south with the hope of reaching Breslau. From the 8th to the 12th April, Polish forces gradually spread south to Breslau which was defended by two Rote Garde divisions (approximately 24,000 men) commanded by Robert Siewert and Erich Hausen. The Reds and the Polish rebels had yet to come into conflict and neither side was entirely sure how to proceed. The enduring slogan of anti-war socialists throughout the Great War had been “no annexations, no concessions”, but the expansion of the civil war to include Poland was a scenario which neither Siewert nor Hausen were willing to take responsibility for. Dowbor-Muśnicki broke the impasse however; the prize of Breslau and its potential in spreading the Polish insurrection throughout Silesia was too valuable to ignore. The slightly larger Polish forces began their assault on Breslau on the 14th. The defending Reds held on until the 19th when two more Rote Garde divisions arrived from Saxony and Brandenburg, leading to Dowbor-Muśnicki ordering a retreat. The reinforcements were accompanied by Julian Marchlewski, member of both the KPD and the RKPb, who had been sent by Karl Liebknecht to negotiate a ceasefire with Poland.
After the Third All-German Congress of Workers’ and Soldiers’ Councils, the SDAPÖ leadership ordered its branches in Czechoslovakia to organise a general strike demanding national self-determination for Germans, as well as Slovaks, Ukrainians, and Hungarians. The German workers did not need much persuasion; a similar demonstration had previously occurred on 4th March where 54 protestors were killed. The strike took place on 13th April and this time Prime Minister Karel Kramář was successful in dispatching Czech police units without President Tomáš Masaryk’s permission. Once again dozens of demonstrators were killed and damage inflicted on government and private property. It was to be Kramář’s last provocation; Masaryk, ever the pragmatist, had not been blind to Czechoslovakia’s growing encirclement by revolutionary socialist states and was resolved to protect Czechoslovak independence at all costs. To this end, Masaryk forced Kramář to resign and appointed Social Democrat Vlastimil Tusar in his place to form a more left-leaning government.[3] This new government featured no ministers from Kramář’s conservative Czechoslovak National Democracy (Československá Národní Demokracie/ČsND). After the violence surrounding the strike had dissipated Masaryk released public statements reiterating his promises that all national minorities would be treated equally in Czechoslovakia. In a more discreet manner Masaryk had Tusar begin the process of reaching out to Josef Seliger, the unofficial leader of the SDAPÖ in Czechoslovakia, with the hope of coming to an understanding with the German population. Furthermore, Seliger was an opponent of the communist-sympathising revolutionaries of the party led by Karl Kreibich. Masaryk hoped that an alliance with Seliger would lessen the threat from the German revolutionaries, just as the alliance with the moderate ČSDSD members was supposed to neutralise their revolutionary colleagues.
In Hungary, the Romanian offensive was planned to continue on 16th April. Before then, the Revolutionary Governing Council had engaged in a build-up of its military since assuming power on 21st March, reaching 80,000 men; most of the new recruits being conscripted farmers or urban proletarian volunteers. The army was lacking in effectiveness however. The day before the Romanian offensive, the Hungarians carried out their own pre-emptive attack but they were repulsed and the Romanian offensive went ahead as planned. On the 20th April the Romanian army had reached the line of demarcation detailed in the Entente’s ultimatum to Hungary, yet the Romanian offensive continued on. By the beginning of May the Romanian offensive had taken them to the east bank of the Tisza, where they halted due to a combination of diplomatic pressure from both the Entente and the Bolsheviks.[4] Due to the catastrophic military setbacks the socialist republic’s National Assembly of Federal Councils, for which there were elections on the 7th and 8th April, was unable to convene for the foreseeable future. The situation was dire for Hungary but Béla Kun, People’s Commissar for Foreign Affairs and unofficial leader of the government, knew that the Hungarian Revolution could only succeed with outside aid and so redoubled his efforts in stalling the Entente while simultaneously appealing to the Ukrainian Red Army and the Austrian Volkswehr for an intervention.
Béla Kun addressing the masses
[1] Hülgerth in OTL would later become head of fascist Austria’s sole paramilitary and soon afterwards Kurt Schuschnigg’s vice-chancellor. Steinacher would become a Nazi supporter; ITTL his pan-German nationalism takes precedence over his anti-socialism, for now.
[2] OTL the Slovene offensive began on 29th April and they failed to conquer those two cities.
[3] OTL Kramář resigned in July after the left-wing parties did very well in the municipal elections.
[4] Unlike OTL, there is no further Czech encroachment south into Slovakia due to Czechoslovakia’s more precarious geopolitical situation.
Dramatis Personae (OTL biographies)
Karl Kreibich: A Sudeten German, Kreibich joined the SDAPÖ in 1902 and quickly became a prominent leader of its left-wing in Bohemia. He opposed the war but was conscripted for military service. Afterwards Kreibich was vocal in his support for the creation of a Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, for which he and his colleagues were expelled from the Social Democratic Party in early 1921. The expelled members immediately formed a German Section of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia and called upon the Czechoslovak leftists to join them; the latter did by the end of the year with pressure from the Comintern. During the mediation between the two groups, the Comintern officially reprimanded Kreibich for "leftist deviations". He remained at the forefront of the party and the Comintern until after WW2 when his criticism of the purging of party leader Rudolf Slansky resulted in Kreibich's demotion. He died in 1966.
The outbreak of civil war in Austria following the Anschluss declaration was complicated by the Italian occupation of Trent, Tyrol, and Istria, and the Slavic occupation of Carinthia and Lower Styria. Many members of the SDAPÖ had hoped that a smaller, more ethnically homogenous Austria would actually increase the likelihood of the Entente allowing German unification in the upcoming peace treaty; the German Revolution had arguably made such calculations theoretical however. Carinthia was protected by 2,500 soldiers of the Volkswehr, compared to 6,500 in Styria. However, the latter detachment were overwhelmingly loyal to the SDAPÖ, while the Carinthian Volkswehr were more heterogeneous in their political loyalties due to the threat posed by the approximately 4,500-strong army of Slovenes. With the beginning of hostilities between the SDAPÖ and the Christian Socials in early April, the Volkswehr in Carinthia descended into civil war; Hans Steinacher commanded the government loyalists against his erstwhile superior Ludwig Hülgerth.[1] On 10th April 2,000 Styrian soldiers were ordered to Carinthia to defeat the CS uprising. Two days later the Slovene soldiers under the command of Rudolf Maister took advantage of the turmoil and broke the ceasefire by advancing into Carinthia, easily taking Klagenfurt and Villach.[2] A simultaneous push towards Graz was defeated by the remaining Volkswehr however, who pursued the Slovenes to the outskirts of Maribor. The order from Army Secretary Julius Deutsch to go no further managed to get through to the Volkswehr in time; the SDAPÖ were still wary of antagonising the Entente too much, especially with French, Italian, and American forces in the region. The situation in Tyrol was substantially different. The 22,000 occupying Italian soldiers remained neutral, allowing the conservative militias to rout the paltry Volkswehr detachments and establish complete control of the region by 9th April. Commanded by the Christian Social jurist Richard Steidle, the conservative Standschützen were reinforced by right-wing refugees from Bavaria.
The Polish rebellion in Posen had settled into a stalemate since the German military coup. The Freikorps had scaled back their operations in anticipation of campaigning against the socialists, while Poland had been reluctant to send forces to assist the 70,000 soldiers of the Greater Poland Army because, during early April, a major offensive was planned against White Ukraine and the Bolsheviks. Lieutenant General Józef Dowbor-Muśnicki, commander of the Polish rebels, ordered a southern offensive on 5th April to link up with Ostrów; the Poles were victorious against the Freikorps divisions who were eager to fight the socialists instead. Encouraged by his success, Dowbor-Muśnicki planned more offensives for the south with the hope of reaching Breslau. From the 8th to the 12th April, Polish forces gradually spread south to Breslau which was defended by two Rote Garde divisions (approximately 24,000 men) commanded by Robert Siewert and Erich Hausen. The Reds and the Polish rebels had yet to come into conflict and neither side was entirely sure how to proceed. The enduring slogan of anti-war socialists throughout the Great War had been “no annexations, no concessions”, but the expansion of the civil war to include Poland was a scenario which neither Siewert nor Hausen were willing to take responsibility for. Dowbor-Muśnicki broke the impasse however; the prize of Breslau and its potential in spreading the Polish insurrection throughout Silesia was too valuable to ignore. The slightly larger Polish forces began their assault on Breslau on the 14th. The defending Reds held on until the 19th when two more Rote Garde divisions arrived from Saxony and Brandenburg, leading to Dowbor-Muśnicki ordering a retreat. The reinforcements were accompanied by Julian Marchlewski, member of both the KPD and the RKPb, who had been sent by Karl Liebknecht to negotiate a ceasefire with Poland.
After the Third All-German Congress of Workers’ and Soldiers’ Councils, the SDAPÖ leadership ordered its branches in Czechoslovakia to organise a general strike demanding national self-determination for Germans, as well as Slovaks, Ukrainians, and Hungarians. The German workers did not need much persuasion; a similar demonstration had previously occurred on 4th March where 54 protestors were killed. The strike took place on 13th April and this time Prime Minister Karel Kramář was successful in dispatching Czech police units without President Tomáš Masaryk’s permission. Once again dozens of demonstrators were killed and damage inflicted on government and private property. It was to be Kramář’s last provocation; Masaryk, ever the pragmatist, had not been blind to Czechoslovakia’s growing encirclement by revolutionary socialist states and was resolved to protect Czechoslovak independence at all costs. To this end, Masaryk forced Kramář to resign and appointed Social Democrat Vlastimil Tusar in his place to form a more left-leaning government.[3] This new government featured no ministers from Kramář’s conservative Czechoslovak National Democracy (Československá Národní Demokracie/ČsND). After the violence surrounding the strike had dissipated Masaryk released public statements reiterating his promises that all national minorities would be treated equally in Czechoslovakia. In a more discreet manner Masaryk had Tusar begin the process of reaching out to Josef Seliger, the unofficial leader of the SDAPÖ in Czechoslovakia, with the hope of coming to an understanding with the German population. Furthermore, Seliger was an opponent of the communist-sympathising revolutionaries of the party led by Karl Kreibich. Masaryk hoped that an alliance with Seliger would lessen the threat from the German revolutionaries, just as the alliance with the moderate ČSDSD members was supposed to neutralise their revolutionary colleagues.
In Hungary, the Romanian offensive was planned to continue on 16th April. Before then, the Revolutionary Governing Council had engaged in a build-up of its military since assuming power on 21st March, reaching 80,000 men; most of the new recruits being conscripted farmers or urban proletarian volunteers. The army was lacking in effectiveness however. The day before the Romanian offensive, the Hungarians carried out their own pre-emptive attack but they were repulsed and the Romanian offensive went ahead as planned. On the 20th April the Romanian army had reached the line of demarcation detailed in the Entente’s ultimatum to Hungary, yet the Romanian offensive continued on. By the beginning of May the Romanian offensive had taken them to the east bank of the Tisza, where they halted due to a combination of diplomatic pressure from both the Entente and the Bolsheviks.[4] Due to the catastrophic military setbacks the socialist republic’s National Assembly of Federal Councils, for which there were elections on the 7th and 8th April, was unable to convene for the foreseeable future. The situation was dire for Hungary but Béla Kun, People’s Commissar for Foreign Affairs and unofficial leader of the government, knew that the Hungarian Revolution could only succeed with outside aid and so redoubled his efforts in stalling the Entente while simultaneously appealing to the Ukrainian Red Army and the Austrian Volkswehr for an intervention.
Béla Kun addressing the masses
[1] Hülgerth in OTL would later become head of fascist Austria’s sole paramilitary and soon afterwards Kurt Schuschnigg’s vice-chancellor. Steinacher would become a Nazi supporter; ITTL his pan-German nationalism takes precedence over his anti-socialism, for now.
[2] OTL the Slovene offensive began on 29th April and they failed to conquer those two cities.
[3] OTL Kramář resigned in July after the left-wing parties did very well in the municipal elections.
[4] Unlike OTL, there is no further Czech encroachment south into Slovakia due to Czechoslovakia’s more precarious geopolitical situation.
Dramatis Personae (OTL biographies)
Karl Kreibich: A Sudeten German, Kreibich joined the SDAPÖ in 1902 and quickly became a prominent leader of its left-wing in Bohemia. He opposed the war but was conscripted for military service. Afterwards Kreibich was vocal in his support for the creation of a Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, for which he and his colleagues were expelled from the Social Democratic Party in early 1921. The expelled members immediately formed a German Section of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia and called upon the Czechoslovak leftists to join them; the latter did by the end of the year with pressure from the Comintern. During the mediation between the two groups, the Comintern officially reprimanded Kreibich for "leftist deviations". He remained at the forefront of the party and the Comintern until after WW2 when his criticism of the purging of party leader Rudolf Slansky resulted in Kreibich's demotion. He died in 1966.
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Things are getting chaotic. I suspect the poles made a mistake by striking at the reds in Wroclaw, though perhaps some sort of ceasefire can still be worked out.
Nice timeline @Teutonic_Thrash .
A question: what is Leo Rothziegel up to? The development of the struggle in Austria suggests he won't be leading volunteers to Budapest.
A question: what is Leo Rothziegel up to? The development of the struggle in Austria suggests he won't be leading volunteers to Budapest.
A temporary truce will be reached but Poland's fate is sealed. Something that has been subtly hinted at is that without Jozef Haller's well-equipped army of exiles reaching Poland, the Polish offensive in May will go rather poorly and be one of the reasons for the eventual Bolshevik victory over Poland.
After having a quick look at him, I think Rothziegel's fate might be the same as OTL. Austria declared the Anschluss after the 6th April, whereas it sounds like Rothziegel went to Hungary right after its revolution on 21st March. Though it is possible that he would have gone back to Austria after the Anschluss and avoided his death fighting the Romanians.
Fair enough. The only info I had was that Rothziegel and the 1200 strong Viennese People's Guard arrived Budapest early April.
Rothziegel's death could always be butterflied away, especially if the Hungarians are in a better position.
Pseudo-Teaser for Soviet Russia 1
Here is a wikibox for an idea/plan I have for the RSFSR:
The general idea is that the NEP is introduced like OTL and is more successful because of the considerably larger socialist world. Sokolnikov, the man most responsible for overseeing the NEP, uses that popularity to get elected as the Chairman of Sovnarkom (the head of government).
The general idea is that the NEP is introduced like OTL and is more successful because of the considerably larger socialist world. Sokolnikov, the man most responsible for overseeing the NEP, uses that popularity to get elected as the Chairman of Sovnarkom (the head of government).