Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Planet of Hats, Aug 21, 2016.

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  1. BootOnFace Buoyant Armiger

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    Just catching up after like a month.

    The mazkan system sounds a lot like the Portuguese factory system. Andalusia would be hard-pressed to do even Portuguese levels of colonial adventures in the Indian Ocean, as they don't have cannon-armed ships and musket-armed sailors.

    One of my pet AH ideas is Greek Muslim Roman Empire and I'm happy to see something like that popping up. Would love to see the Bataids fall to a local Hellenic Muslim dynasty, though. That would make things even more interesting.

    Regarding the Bataid economy: Armenians were one of the primary trading and banking peoples in the Roman and Ottoman empires. They'll probably be even more important ITTL, as the Greeks are becoming Muslim and thus won't be able to take care of trade between Rumelia and Christendom like they did OTL. They will probably be the primary maritime traders for the Muslim Mediterranean, though, as they can trade openly and gladly with other Muslims.

    Also, the Ottoman economy was so poor primarily because of how they maintained governance. The Beylik system was basically feudalism but with nomads in charge. This softened over time as the Turks settled, but there was another huge problem. The mamluk administrations in Iraq and Egypt were based on support from pastoral tribes who provided the army with horsemen and the sultan loyal authority, but had a vested interest in keeping down settled agriculture and cities. They also basically constantly looted their own land. Cairo managed to grow huge despite this, but as long as Iraq and Egypt don't end up with the government becoming actively hostile to irrigation, they might not ever become weak enough for the Bataids to roll in. And if they do, the Bataids might find the same incentives to keep the economies of the Arab areas down as the Ottomans did.


    The Bataids, however, have probably mainly inherited the Roman structure of government, considering there are many Greeks high in the government. This means they probably have the feudalistic theme system, but they probably don't have the antipathy towards commerce and urbanism that the Turks had, thanks to the Greeks being in charge of most things. This, combined with the lack of a janissary system, makes me think that they would do far worse against a true Crusade against them by the Holy Roman Empire. But it would make them resistant to invasion in their core lands, as although they don't have a huge professional army, they can keep raising levies and equipping men with modern weaponry. They maintain that unmatched Roman resilience, but lack the amazing offensive capacity of the Turks.

    The Mande are getting really rich in the 14th century OTL and I was wondering if perhaps a major Mansa takes a Hajj by the new sea route and ends up basically setting up a bunch of mazkan by paying Andalusians to supply the voyage. The influx of all this gold to the Andalusian merchants supplying this Hajj could fund the foundation of even more mazkan in the Algarves and Hindu Ocean.
     
  2. Timeline Junkie Well-Known Member

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    I know this is a late response to this specific post, but I was rereading the whole French Succession Crisis, i.e The War of Five Flowers, and I was just curious as to how succession would be dealt with in the future.

    Will a formal succession law be formalized eventually and written down in law? Based off of the precedent here, I can see either Semi-Salic succession or Male-Preference Agnatic Primogeniture being the laws of succession for Francia.


    A question about the latest post -

    Also, since Andalusia has reclaimed Porto and Braga, Andalus now controls most of the Iberian Peninsula. So, will the Christian realms in Iberia fall under the Francia sphere of influence eventually and be considered an Iberian part of the Francian realm? Or will the Santiagonians and the Navarrans want to remain independent from Francian control and continue to pay tribute to the Andalusis?
     
  3. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    We discused but whatever the author wants..for me Andalusia can easily reconquer those montains kingdom now and thus the whole peninsula would be andalusi, meaning europe ends at the pyrennes, so is possible those move back to france
     
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  4. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    I'm always reluctant to do that simply because it didn't end well in reality when Andalusia got aggressive enough to raid Santiago.
     
  5. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    that is far different time and with the butterflies and what could come..that could be feasible, specially as Santiago is an awful neighboor have the medieval equivalent of terorist doing raids in Andalusia
     
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  6. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    Also andalusia a has a bigger military pool they can now fight wars relative to their size.
     
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  7. Talus I of Dixie We need to wank Venice

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    Wow, so many timelines about Islam in Europe, right? I'm taking a reading on that and i'm really enjoying it
     
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  8. BootOnFace Buoyant Armiger

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    It'll be far easier to fight Santiago with all that fat dosh from all this new trade. Andalusia could one day just muster a big army in response to the next time Santiago annoys them enough. And if they take Leon and Burgo, then the whole Meseta Norte is Andalusian and most of the Christian ability to really fight back is destroyed and Santiago ends up in the same position as Granada OTL.
     
  9. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    Plus reminder Santiago is an awful neighboor too.
     
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  10. haider najib Well-Known Member

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    maybe its more pragmatic if the north is gone who will they jihad? France? they could barely take on half of southern France, Andalusia is comparatively weak for its size. They can bully the north but they are a small fish when its north of the Pyrenees.
     
  11. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    Question: How big is the jar the moonlight is? and how much moonlight is on the jar?

    Nah, france is even friendly thanks to the small cat trading, the rest would be unify the peninsula and send away a terrorist order from santiago is harrasing andalusis.
     
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  12. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    The jar is exactly the size of the Pyxis of Al-Mughira.
     
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  13. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    That is smaller i thought....
     
  14. inawarminister Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, if Imperial Spain IOTL have enough fund (and manpower) to battle the Maghrebis, Neapolitans, Central Italians, Sardinians, French, English, Ottoman, Venezians, Phillipines states (New World statelets don't count due to the plagues sadly), sometimes at the same time along the 16th century, why doesn't THIS Muslim Iberia, who has access to North and West African manpower, and the trade of Cape of Good Hope AND the New World both?
     
  15. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    Anti Muslim Bias?
     
  16. SenatorErnesto Well-Known Member

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    Eh, I think this timeline is being very realistic on Anadulsi power for the moment. Remember Imperial Spain had the benefit of Aztec and Incan gold flooding in to buy tons of troops, and their holdings comprised of the entire Iberian Peninsula, Southern Italy, parts of North Africa, and for awhile, parts of Central/Northern Italy and the Netherlands, so they could field huge armies. Not to mention the technology difference in terms of recruiting, arming, and fighting.
     
  17. I'tikaf Mufti of Rome

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    Anyone who has taken the time to read through Fiqh and comment on Islamic Fashion Trends in alternate Andalusia during the 16th century is by no means an Islamophobe
     
  18. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    This is the first time I've been accused of having an anti-Muslim bias.

    I'm not sure what to actually say here.
     
  19. Nivek Resident Videogame Expert

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    I talk the forum in general, as people say OTL spain pulled with maybe less people.
     
  20. Planet of Hats Ahmadi-Cruz Parlante Gang Donor

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    By the way, I'll get a new chapter out soon. I've had a bit of a rocky month in terms of mental health, which has made it tough to get a good burst of creativity out. Stay tuned.
     
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