Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

[Shutenmaru]

At the moment, not yet. New World crops are beginning to arrive, but the Columbian Exchange IRL took awhile. However, cassava is being planted in Senegambia right about now, and maize is beginning to get its day in the limelight - but what's coming into the Iberian-Maghrebi-West-African world first are the luxury goods. Chili peppers, cacao, allspice, annatto and vanilla? Yeah, they're into those.

Worth noting that many of the first discoverers were spice traders trading in melegueta pepper and false cubeb. Their first impulse is that THE SPICE MUST FLOW. (This is also why the trade with India and Southeast Asia is more lucrative than New World trade. Cinnamon in particular is hugely sought-after in Andalusia.)



The Greek Quran is written in Greek characters; it was written for wealthy Greeks who retained their language. An Arabic script has begun to come together, though, largely because Arabic is such a prestige language.

Regarding the Greek version of the Quran, Islam spread to many different areas with wildly varying languages and all of them read it in the original language. Sure translations existed everywhere but they were always supplemental to the original Arabic.

I doubt in such a scenario a Greek version would ever catch on as a primary religious text.

 

[haider najib]

Could greek verison of the quran simply be a stop gap for Byzantine. The empire has less muslims than the ottomans did and enforcing jiyza is a double edged sword. Creating a greek quran allows more conservation as its in the native tongue and its mass readable this will make it easier for illiterate to know as you just get one person who can read. It makes it easier for the important classes and roles to convert of the greek populas. The thinking this way is sound the byzantines are not ruled by turks they are pretty greek so they see themselves as superior so they might not want to rely too heavily on turks as they have massive greek pool they can tap into. The byzantines need as many muslims as possible so i think there plan is to get as many converts as possible and deal with theology later.

@Planet of Hats you say the muslim byzantine are ruled by a mix of turkic patinzak (can't spell it) but in the update first mentioning the muslim byzantines it said a greek converso general overthrew the old gov. So is the ruler a greek or that mix thing you said?

 

[Yama951]

I'm now starting to imagine the kayser proclaiming himself as caliph of rum in a century or two if not earlier.

 

[Timeline Junkie]

I'm now starting to imagine the kayser proclaiming himself as caliph of rum in a century or two if not earlier.

Next you'll have stories saying that Muhammad was a Hellene who came to Arabia. Islam will be truly be considered the "Roman" religion in a few centuries.

 

[haider najib]

I'm now starting to imagine the kayser proclaiming himself as caliph of rum in a century or two if not earlier.

Next you'll have stories saying that Muhammad was a Hellene who came to Arabia. Islam will be truly be considered the "Roman" religion in a few centuries.

The bataids are in strong position. Harabids from what we know are going decendent and there position is much weaker so the bataids can do a ottomans and seize hedjaz. The bataids could smash the Abbasids if need be they are only have Baghdad.

 

[Al-numbers]

and more than a few Greek conversos, who are closer to the Vallahades than anything else in that they have retained Greek language.

Wait a sec...

*Googles*

So they are a Muslim Greek minority within the Ottoman Empire (or a Greek/Balkan mixed people) that retained their Greek language in private and public, followed Greek customs, and even recited the call to prayers in Greek! That is some incredible cultural mixing and retention! If the Greeks in the MiaJ-world are converted in this manner, it wouldn't be surprising that they would see themselves as the continuation of ancient Greece and Rome, much to the chagrin of Christian Europe. It would also increase the plausibility of a Greek Quran being written, though I suspect even they would consider that unorthodox.

Next you'll have stories saying that Muhammad was a Hellene who came to Arabia. Islam will be truly be considered the "Roman" religion in a few centuries.

At least it's less weird than that one Indian myth I dimly remember about the Prophet Ibrahim meeting with the god Shiva, or was it with Muhammad? Plus, it would seem plausible to outsiders in Asia and Europe, which might push the needle a bit in helping conversos.

 

[Timeline Junkie]

At least it's less weird than that one Indian myth I dimly remember about the Prophet Ibrahim meeting with the god Shiva, or was it with Muhammad? Plus, it would seem plausible to outsiders in Asia and Europe, which might push the needle a bit in helping conversos.

Exactly. I'm also curious to know if the Islamic world can be divided into Roman Islam and "Arabian" Islam ( just a catch-all term everything not Roman).

 

[Alexander the Average]

Exactly. I'm also curious to know if the Islamic world can be divided into Roman Islam and "Arabian" Islam ( just a catch-all term everything not Roman).

Well Arabian Islam will also be divided between Western Andalusian Islam with their separate Caliphate and Maliki jurisprudence and Eastern Abbasid Islam. There are also the Shia and Ibadis.

 

[inawarminister]

Exactly. I'm also curious to know if the Islamic world can be divided into Roman Islam and "Arabian" Islam ( just a catch-all term everything not Roman).

It's too late for that. If Byzantines fall in the 700s or 800s, maybe. But 1100? With Sunni Islam already codified in reaction to all the innovative sects of the previous 3 centuries? Nah.
What it would probably lead to is syncretism in the outer ring of communities, but with constant injection of orthodoxy through learned people going to Hajj and learn there. Just like OTL Turkish Islam --> remember, 20% of Turks are Alevites and Bektavis, not exactly orthodox Muslims.

 

[Timeline Junkie]

I wonder if the Bataids are going to start exploration of the Americas after coming into contact with stories of mysterious lands from Andalusi sailors.

 

[snassni2]

How are the relations between Bataids and Andalusians?

 

[Yama951]

I wonder if the Bataids are going to start exploration of the Americas after coming into contact with stories of mysterious lands from Andalusi sailors.

Would be hard by the Christian ships in control of the middle Mediterranean and the route to the New World through the east is still nonexistent. Maybe if the Bataids end up taking control of the Arabian peninsula but it would still be far for them to colonize.

Huh, now I'm imagining the knowledge of the new world spreading to Europe through Christian Mediterranean pirates and merchant families with loose morals.

 

[inawarminister]

Would be hard by the Christian ships in control of the middle Mediterranean and the route to the New World through the east is still nonexistent. Maybe if the Bataids end up taking control of the Arabian peninsula but it would still be far for them to colonize.

A peak Ottoman-style Bataids would conceivably conquer and integrate Egypt and perhaps Iraq too (the maximum doable from Byzantion) and then they can colonise East Africa and Indian ocean from there. Really far but doable. New World? Hah, no. All Muslim colonisation of al-Gharb will come from Andalusia, Morocco and Mauritania, and West Africa. And perhaps East Indies, maybe. Malay trading missions to Hawai'i and West Mexico/California would be crazy awesome. As a bonus, the Malay merchants would be able to guess what the local Polynesians speak anyway- they're cousins!

 

[snassni2]

An andalusian-malay joint venture to colononize Australia and NewZealand would be interesting.

 

[Planet of Hats]

Regarding the Greek version of the Quran, Islam spread to many different areas with wildly varying languages and all of them read it in the original language. Sure translations existed everywhere but they were always supplemental to the original Arabic.

I doubt in such a scenario a Greek version would ever catch on as a primary religious text.

The Greek Quran is pretty niche and the more widespread version is Arabic, but much like how Andalusian Romance hung on for a long time in Andalusia, Greek will hang on for a long time in Anatolia.

So they are a Muslim Greek minority within the Ottoman Empire (or a Greek/Balkan mixed people) that retained their Greek language in private and public, followed Greek customs, and even recited the call to prayers in Greek! That is some incredible cultural mixing and retention! If the Greeks in the MiaJ-world are converted in this manner, it wouldn't be surprising that they would see themselves as the continuation of ancient Greece and Rome, much to the chagrin of Christian Europe. It would also increase the plausibility of a Greek Quran being written, though I suspect even they would consider that unorthodox.

Greek conversos outside the nobility tend to start out as similar to the Vallahades and become more acculturated to Islamic norms and ways with time, though even the nobles retain a Hellenic identity and tend to be conversant in both languages.

I wonder if the Bataids are going to start exploration of the Americas after coming into contact with stories of mysterious lands from Andalusi sailors.

Unlikely; they've got the entire Mediterranean to get through, and their navy consists of rowed galleys and coast-huggers, not oceanic ships. Even if they could get ships through the Genoese, Venetian, Italian and Provencal ships patrolling the central Med, a galley isn't going to get past Cape Bojador.

 

[Yama951]

A peak Ottoman-style Bataids would conceivably conquer and integrate Egypt and perhaps Iraq too (the maximum doable from Byzantion) and then they can colonise East Africa and Indian ocean from there. Really far but doable. New World? Hah, no. All Muslim colonisation of al-Gharb will come from Andalusia, Morocco and Mauritania, and West Africa. And perhaps East Indies, maybe. Malay trading missions to Hawai'i and West Mexico/California would be crazy awesome. As a bonus, the Malay merchants would be able to guess what the local Polynesians speak anyway- they're cousins!

An andalusian-malay joint venture to colononize Australia and NewZealand would be interesting.

This just make me imagine a future pan-austronesian Nusantaran Empire or federation in the timeline. Sort of like the potential expansion one could do in the Decades of Divergences Victoria 2 mod.

 

[haider najib]

Got a question in this tl world western islam seems to be less important to peoples identity and secularism has succeeded. So my question is if we compared your western islam to current islam, would the people who do the islam stuff (them bearded people we only ever here of when they come out to represent the muslim community condemning terrorism as they represent the muslim community but like none of us heard of them before (scholars etc)) say they are quranist, heretics, culturally muslim or cherry pickers etc. Long story short how would real life muslim world react to this western islam?

 

[Nyvis]

Would be hard by the Christian ships in control of the middle Mediterranean and the route to the New World through the east is still nonexistent. Maybe if the Bataids end up taking control of the Arabian peninsula but it would still be far for them to colonize.

If anything, they're more likely to get an interest in trading with India and China.

 

[Timeline Junkie]

If anything, they're more likely to get an interest in trading with India and China.

I wonder if trade brings about a taste for Chinese porcelain, art, and foodstuffs. In OTL, I know that Persian miniatures were inspired by Chinese art styles and that the Mongols brought rice to the Ilkhanate. Honestly, Chinese porcelain is beautiful and I can see any culture develop a fondness for it.

 

[Nyvis]

I wonder if trade brings about a taste for Chinese porcelain, art, and foodstuffs. In OTL, I know that Persian miniatures were inspired by Chinese art styles and that the Mongols brought rice to the Ilkhanate. Honestly, Chinese porcelain is beautiful and I can see any culture develop a fondness for it.

Al-Andalus is going to take the role of the Portugese in getting the first no-intermediaries routes to the far East. They're already going around Africa.

They're probably going to be a lot more pragmatic and less preachy than the first Europeans getting there, too, so they may get better openings.