I just want to see planets to still use arts, but that cant happen as you know andalusia was conquered and most lost. Theres no point wasting real life art that won't exist in this tl might as well use them instead here for Andalusia.
Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline
- Thread starter Planet of Hats
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- al-andalus cordoba timeline
Planet of Hats
Donor
I try to throw art in when I feel it'll illustrate something interesting. I think I might've shown the Pyxis of Al-Mughira in here somewhere. And hey, there are all those kitties.
I really don't know anything about Islamic Architecture tbh. Thought it looked persianesque but I guess I was very wrong.
The pictures of kitties count as art and I'll fist-fight anyone who says differently.
But can you fight the muslim ummah as cats are living beasts, isn't art work of living creatures bad
Planet of Hats
Donor
I'm a big fan of Overly Sarcastic, but their stuff also tends to be a high-level overview.
Blue here is taking the romantic view of Al-Andalus as a tolerant gloryland. If you dig into it a little more, though, it becomes more complicated: Umayyad Al-Andalus was more of a racially stratified social hierarchy, and even though religious minorities were better off than they were in Christian Europe, opportunities tended to be granted or curtailed based on your race and culture - e.g. Arabo-Andalusians at the very top, then Arabo-Berbers, then Berbers, then Muladies.
Basically that's not a bad introduction, but it glosses over a lot of complexity.
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That's pretty much what I thought when watching it. Your timeline did a lot to educate me on the nitty-gritty of early Andalusia.
ACT VI Part VIII: The Great Alcazar of Isbili and the Future Capital
Planet of Hats
Donor
The immensity of the place was enough to make Iqal feel like he'd suddenly metamorphosed into an ant and strolled into a human palace.
The click of the students' shoes against the old, polished tiles seemed to get lost in the vast ornamental vaults of the great hall through which they walked. Everything seemed to have been practically preserved in time, from the dazzling blue and white and gold zellige tiles of the walls to the dramatic ogee arches of the doors to the elegant columns rising through the chamber. The soft blue rug rolled out along the hall's centre wasn't ancient, but it was ornate, soft and inviting.
"I didn't think it would be this big," someone in the line of students murmured.
"Originally it wasn't," admitted Dr. Mirza from near the head of the group, bringing them to a halt. "The palace was expanded over time. But this hall was part of the original. You can see the Late Blue Period zellige tiles and the muqarnas up there in the vaults - those are pretty typical of Late Precrossing architecture."
In spite of himself, Iqal slipped his imager[1] from the pocket of his jacket and held it up. The device chirped softly, preserving a few images of the vaults, then one of the large dais at the head of the hall, backed by elaborate drapes in blue and white and gold.
"How come this was built in Isbili and not in Córdoba?" a girl in the group asked as Iqal turned to imagize something else - a man walking through the room in the florid indigo and green garb of a palace servant. A reenactor, no doubt.
Dr. Mirza nodded crisply. "Good question, And the answer is geography. The Great Alcazar of Isbili started off as hajib Abd ar-Rashid's secondary palace, but in fact it was built because Córdoba was in a slow decline."
"Decline?" Iqal asked with a flicker of surprise. Lowering the imager, he returned his focus to the group. "I thought this was right before a golden age."
"Oh, it was. And Córdoba didn't collapse like Constantinople did. It was always one of the most important cities," Dr. Mirza assured. "But geography played into it.
"You see, the problem was the Wadi al-Kabir itself. Throughout most of the Rule of the Slaves, you could navigate straight to Córdoba in an oceangoing ship. But by the time Abd ar-Rashid was well into his rule, the river had started to silt up. You could still get to Córdoba, but when the population declined during the Great Plague, a lot of the new growth didn't happen in Córdoba - it went here, to Isbili."
"Because this part hadn't silted up yet?" presumed Asta as she adjusted her glasses.[2]
A little smile tugged at the professor's face. "Yes. But also because Isbili was an incredibly prosperous city, and a lot of sea trade was conducted by ships contracted by the Banu Angelino, the most important family in Isbili. The Banu Angelino had been very important in supporting the Andalusi Revolt in the first place. So it was really geography making the politics possible."
Gesturing towards the columns nearby, Dr. Mirza cleared his throat briefly. "See the cream-coloured marble on those pillars? That's a type of stone called Al-Lacant Cream.[3] From what we know, it was bought by Al-Jadd ibn Sadiq al-Anjylyni, who was the wealthiest man in Isbili at the time,[4] and given to Abd ar-Rashid as a gift for his summer Alcazar."
"So he moved the capital?" asked someone else Iqal couldn't quite see over the row of heads.
"Not yet," Dr. Mirza said with a quick wave of his hand. "As I said, this was ostensibly a summer Alcazar. But his successors would eventually expand it and begin to use it as their seat. It's really the first piece of what the division of powers would be. The Caliph would remain entrenched at Córdoba and the hajib would be located at Isbili, after a point."[5]
A question hung on Iqal's lips - but before he could answer it, something else cut in.
A low, rolling growl from somewhere in the pit of his stomach - just as the conversation died down. His mouth hung open, question dying on his lips, hand half-raised.
Slowly, a couple dozen sets of eyes turned to look at him. He felt his face rapidly beginning to turn pink. Clearing his throat, he hunched his shoulders a bit and managed an awkward smile. "...Pardon."
"Actually I am getting hungry," Feyik cut in, and for a moment Iqal had to fight back the urge to hug his friend. "Is there someplace to eat, Dr. Mirza?"
"I think I saw one back there," Asta piped up. "Something about lamb tajine...."
"Well!" Dr. Mirza pushed a hand through his hair. "I suppose learning on an empty stomach is never a good idea. Let's eat and tend to prayer, and we can continue on after that."
Thank God, a hungry Iqal reflected as the group began to move on to wherever Abd ar-Rashid had put the kitchen.
[1] A small pocket camera.
[2] I wasn't able to find a source as to exactly when the Guadalquivir became unnavigable at Córdoba, but Seville is far more likely to soak up ship access in an increasingly maritime economy, and I don't think dredging technology is sufficient to dredge the Guadalquivir at Córdoba - the Moors at this point are capable of dredging harbours in the same way the Romans were in the early Dominate, but 1600s dredging technology is a ways out of reach at the moment, and it's harder because Córdoba is far upriver enough that employing a scratch-style dredger probably just results in the silt settling further downstream. Basically saving freighter access to Córdoba may just be beyond the technology of the period.
[3] Crema morfil quarried from Alicante.
[4] Al-Jadd is the son of Sadiq ibn Yahya, one of the key backers of Al-Hasan ibn Hizam, and a fairly old man at this point.
[5] The Shogun lives at Edo and the Emperor lives in Kyoto. The Hajib lives in Seville and the Caliph lives in Córdoba.
The click of the students' shoes against the old, polished tiles seemed to get lost in the vast ornamental vaults of the great hall through which they walked. Everything seemed to have been practically preserved in time, from the dazzling blue and white and gold zellige tiles of the walls to the dramatic ogee arches of the doors to the elegant columns rising through the chamber. The soft blue rug rolled out along the hall's centre wasn't ancient, but it was ornate, soft and inviting.
"I didn't think it would be this big," someone in the line of students murmured.
"Originally it wasn't," admitted Dr. Mirza from near the head of the group, bringing them to a halt. "The palace was expanded over time. But this hall was part of the original. You can see the Late Blue Period zellige tiles and the muqarnas up there in the vaults - those are pretty typical of Late Precrossing architecture."
In spite of himself, Iqal slipped his imager[1] from the pocket of his jacket and held it up. The device chirped softly, preserving a few images of the vaults, then one of the large dais at the head of the hall, backed by elaborate drapes in blue and white and gold.
"How come this was built in Isbili and not in Córdoba?" a girl in the group asked as Iqal turned to imagize something else - a man walking through the room in the florid indigo and green garb of a palace servant. A reenactor, no doubt.
Dr. Mirza nodded crisply. "Good question, And the answer is geography. The Great Alcazar of Isbili started off as hajib Abd ar-Rashid's secondary palace, but in fact it was built because Córdoba was in a slow decline."
"Decline?" Iqal asked with a flicker of surprise. Lowering the imager, he returned his focus to the group. "I thought this was right before a golden age."
"Oh, it was. And Córdoba didn't collapse like Constantinople did. It was always one of the most important cities," Dr. Mirza assured. "But geography played into it.
"You see, the problem was the Wadi al-Kabir itself. Throughout most of the Rule of the Slaves, you could navigate straight to Córdoba in an oceangoing ship. But by the time Abd ar-Rashid was well into his rule, the river had started to silt up. You could still get to Córdoba, but when the population declined during the Great Plague, a lot of the new growth didn't happen in Córdoba - it went here, to Isbili."
"Because this part hadn't silted up yet?" presumed Asta as she adjusted her glasses.[2]
A little smile tugged at the professor's face. "Yes. But also because Isbili was an incredibly prosperous city, and a lot of sea trade was conducted by ships contracted by the Banu Angelino, the most important family in Isbili. The Banu Angelino had been very important in supporting the Andalusi Revolt in the first place. So it was really geography making the politics possible."
Gesturing towards the columns nearby, Dr. Mirza cleared his throat briefly. "See the cream-coloured marble on those pillars? That's a type of stone called Al-Lacant Cream.[3] From what we know, it was bought by Al-Jadd ibn Sadiq al-Anjylyni, who was the wealthiest man in Isbili at the time,[4] and given to Abd ar-Rashid as a gift for his summer Alcazar."
"So he moved the capital?" asked someone else Iqal couldn't quite see over the row of heads.
"Not yet," Dr. Mirza said with a quick wave of his hand. "As I said, this was ostensibly a summer Alcazar. But his successors would eventually expand it and begin to use it as their seat. It's really the first piece of what the division of powers would be. The Caliph would remain entrenched at Córdoba and the hajib would be located at Isbili, after a point."[5]
A question hung on Iqal's lips - but before he could answer it, something else cut in.
A low, rolling growl from somewhere in the pit of his stomach - just as the conversation died down. His mouth hung open, question dying on his lips, hand half-raised.
Slowly, a couple dozen sets of eyes turned to look at him. He felt his face rapidly beginning to turn pink. Clearing his throat, he hunched his shoulders a bit and managed an awkward smile. "...Pardon."
"Actually I am getting hungry," Feyik cut in, and for a moment Iqal had to fight back the urge to hug his friend. "Is there someplace to eat, Dr. Mirza?"
"I think I saw one back there," Asta piped up. "Something about lamb tajine...."
"Well!" Dr. Mirza pushed a hand through his hair. "I suppose learning on an empty stomach is never a good idea. Let's eat and tend to prayer, and we can continue on after that."
Thank God, a hungry Iqal reflected as the group began to move on to wherever Abd ar-Rashid had put the kitchen.
[1] A small pocket camera.
[2] I wasn't able to find a source as to exactly when the Guadalquivir became unnavigable at Córdoba, but Seville is far more likely to soak up ship access in an increasingly maritime economy, and I don't think dredging technology is sufficient to dredge the Guadalquivir at Córdoba - the Moors at this point are capable of dredging harbours in the same way the Romans were in the early Dominate, but 1600s dredging technology is a ways out of reach at the moment, and it's harder because Córdoba is far upriver enough that employing a scratch-style dredger probably just results in the silt settling further downstream. Basically saving freighter access to Córdoba may just be beyond the technology of the period.
[3] Crema morfil quarried from Alicante.
[4] Al-Jadd is the son of Sadiq ibn Yahya, one of the key backers of Al-Hasan ibn Hizam, and a fairly old man at this point.
[5] The Shogun lives at Edo and the Emperor lives in Kyoto. The Hajib lives in Seville and the Caliph lives in Córdoba.
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Huzzah, a narrative post! I always like getting a view from Dr. Mirza's class looking backwards into history, it adds more dimensions than just a section from an ATL history book would get you. I understand why those history books are neccessary, though, since sometimes you just need to hit 'em with that infodump.
It's ok, Cordoba, we still love you.
I wonder if the the Caliph and the Emperor will ever meet someday in the future. They have a lot in common, despite being from radically different cultural backgrounds: both are simultaneously figurehead monarchs and leaders of the state religion, both claim ancestry from figures that had a hand in the distant origins of said faith (namely Uthman the companion of Prophet Muhammad and Emperor Jimmu), both had been sidelined by a military class ostensibly ruling in their name (saqaliba and samurai.)
Now that I think about it, I'll bet there's pulpy ahistorical action movies in MiaJworld's 2019 that feature rogue saqaliba and ronin battling - with lots of wuxia movie "honorable warrior" stuff and over the top fight sequences.
It's ok, Cordoba, we still love you.
I wonder if the the Caliph and the Emperor will ever meet someday in the future. They have a lot in common, despite being from radically different cultural backgrounds: both are simultaneously figurehead monarchs and leaders of the state religion, both claim ancestry from figures that had a hand in the distant origins of said faith (namely Uthman the companion of Prophet Muhammad and Emperor Jimmu), both had been sidelined by a military class ostensibly ruling in their name (saqaliba and samurai.)
Now that I think about it, I'll bet there's pulpy ahistorical action movies in MiaJworld's 2019 that feature rogue saqaliba and ronin battling - with lots of wuxia movie "honorable warrior" stuff and over the top fight sequences.
Planet of Hats
Donor
They can't meet because we'd all explode into bill wurtz.
so if you live outside the alcazar, how're you supposed to protect your shit? from crusaders? o/` buy saqaliba~ o/` (correction: rich important people bought saqaliba. poor people who could not afford saqaliba did not buy saqaliba.)
C&C Generals references, bill wurtz references...is there a Turtledove for best pop culture tie-ins?
Planet of Hats
Donor
You could rewrite a lot of this TL into bill wurtz.
o/` new arrivals in iberia~ maybe it's those muslim people i was talking about, or their cousins or something~ o/`
o/` and they built some mosques and casbahs and stuff~ o/`
it's a bird, it's a plane. o/` it's the kizik turks~ o/`
"aah!" said the byzantine empire, which by now was so small it didn't exist anymore. "we need help." so they call the pope and say "we need help." and the pope says "nope." and then this guy eustathios says "wait! what if we buy the turks and then make the turks work for us and then the turks will go away?"
*beat*
o/` "hell yeah, now we've got business~" o/` said the byzantine empire. and failed. and also died.
Jewish people will be a interesting area to speculate. If we go on a surface view we might have instead of judeo-christian stick played by politicians it might judeo-islamic this time. Broad generalisation here, islamic was better for jews and Andalusia developing some weaker/secular islamic ideology compared to mainstream might mean jews will see iberia as there home. Anti-Semitism may still be prevalent due to less islamic christians killing each other so we might as well kill the jews instead, also black jews means racist will have a field day. It would be cool if the jews see iberia as a home (i just want this not to wank liberal Andalusia but rather avoid the jews are evil! That you see in alot of the modern muslim world)
Sad thing in this timeline is wales most likely will exist
plz press f.
Also natives of british isles can now joke that english don't know what they are. Think that tribe (nestorian one) cant tell what ethnic cultural group they are look at england they are celts who have been romanced, saxonised and norsed, god knows whats next.
Sad thing in this timeline is wales most likely will exist
plz press f. Also natives of british isles can now joke that english don't know what they are. Think that tribe (nestorian one) cant tell what ethnic cultural group they are look at england they are celts who have been romanced, saxonised and norsed, god knows whats next.
Yes, the Banu Angelino is coming to action! I wonder if there are some Genoese or Venetian traders raising eyebrows at their Sevillan/Isbilian counterparts and their ancestry. Besides that, the rise of the city vis-a-vis Cordoba will be interesting to watch, especially with the new political situation.
Also, its heartening to see tajines still being a cuisine in the MiaJ-world. Some things never change.
Also, its heartening to see tajines still being a cuisine in the MiaJ-world. Some things never change.
I would have stopped reading the TL if not.Yes, the Banu Angelino is coming to action! I wonder if there are some Genoese or Venetian traders raising eyebrows at their Sevillan/Isbilian counterparts and their ancestry. Besides that, the rise of the city vis-a-vis Cordoba will be interesting to watch, especially with the new political situation.
Also, its heartening to see tajines still being a cuisine in the MiaJ-world. Some things never change.
