An interesting potential development from otl India with regards to Islamic injunctions against silk- “Amid the religious diversity of South Asia, cotton provided a fabric of compromise. This was true on a material level: in order to evade Islamic injunctions against indulgence in silk fabrics, weavers produced a combined fabric, with cotton warp and silk wefts, that was known as mashru, which translates to “permitted,” thus implying that cotton could neutralize the sin of silk”
Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline
- Thread starter Planet of Hats
- Start date
-
- Tags
- al-andalus cordoba timeline
Interesting how China is influencing Al-Andalus. I wonder if the opposite will happen, too.
Doubt it. Unless Al-Andalus defeated China in an Opium War level event, China will always see itself as the cultured Middle Kingdom surrounded by a sea of unwashed barbarians, some more clean than others.
It’s from an article called The Emperors Humbler Clothes by Sylvia Houghteling
I don't recognise that article, but Bulliet discusses the same subject in his Cotton, Climate, and Camels in Early Islamic Iran so he probably said something similar.
With Western Islam coming into greater contact with Wu China and much of Asia, what kind of cultural impact is that having on India, Lanka, and Southeast Asia ?
Are New World crops coming into use in these societies? Are Andalusi technologies being adapted for use in Lanka? Is Lanka within the Andalusi and Wu spheres of influence?
What is to stop independent Wu merchants from making makzans of there own, at least around Southeast Asia, Ryukyu, and at the furthest Lanka , now that Andalusi and Maghrebi merchants have begun to benefit from global trade.
Are New World crops coming into use in these societies? Are Andalusi technologies being adapted for use in Lanka? Is Lanka within the Andalusi and Wu spheres of influence?
What is to stop independent Wu merchants from making makzans of there own, at least around Southeast Asia, Ryukyu, and at the furthest Lanka , now that Andalusi and Maghrebi merchants have begun to benefit from global trade.
Planet of Hats
Donor
Mostly philosophy. The whole idea of a makzan emerged because Andalusi traders kept finding places with no conventional cities, and the makzan served as an obvious trading post at a central point from which they could contract societies with few ports. The Wu do it the easy way: Their neighbours have major ports and well-developed urbanized societies, so the Wu just expect local rulers to pay tribute.
New World crops are quite a bit slower to circulate outside of the Sudan and in India simply due to the distances involved, though they are appearing in some degree.
If Sinophilia is a prominent thing in Asmarid society, tea cultivation is going to become important and I know that tea cultivation is a thing in the Maghreb and Portugal OTL on a minor scale. So will large tea plantations become a thing ITTL in the Asmarid Empire and its colonies ?
On the topic of silk, silkworms were brought to Iberia in the 8th century, so if the demand for silk is really high and if people want to pay less , I can imagine large private or perhaps even state-run silk production centers within the Asmarid Empire.
On the topic of silk, silkworms were brought to Iberia in the 8th century, so if the demand for silk is really high and if people want to pay less , I can imagine large private or perhaps even state-run silk production centers within the Asmarid Empire.
Really curious to see what Australia is going to look like in this timeline. I know disease etc will likely still hit very hard but hoping the extermination of the first Australians by British settlers will be butterflied.
Perhaps Chinese or Andalusi medicine can even help a little with the plagues? If they get even a bit of help around first contact perhaps they can 'stop the boats'.
Perhaps Chinese or Andalusi medicine can even help a little with the plagues? If they get even a bit of help around first contact perhaps they can 'stop the boats'.
Last edited:
Im really interested about this tl and hopefully we get there is how the author going to deal with womans rights, secularism and combining it with Islam. Modern snippets give the impression religious identity and roles are less prevelant or well less important. If its okay can the author give any ideas how you will do it?
Got a question in regards to Santiago what happened to the prince who fled with his mom to andalusia it stated that a muslim dynasty are descendents of them yet we haven't seen said dynasty yet.
Got a question in regards to Santiago what happened to the prince who fled with his mom to andalusia it stated that a muslim dynasty are descendents of them yet we haven't seen said dynasty yet.
Planet of Hats
Donor
You may not see them, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Not every element of history is a Chekhov's gun. This family continues to live in one of the southeastern Andalusian port cities as a local family of minor but not insubstantial prominence - they have wealth but are not considered a family of caliphate-wide importance. Like many Gothic families in Andalusia will happily tell you about their roots in old Gothic nobility, these ones do the same, emphasizing their conversion to Islam.
Women's rights are already a bit better in Andalusia than in, say, the more conservative parts of the Middle East, for instance Yemen. That's mostly a holdover from pre-Islamic cultural norms, but also a bit of a compare-and-contrast against Zahiri groups who go very far down the road of less women's rights. I don't want to give my whole hand away for fear of writing myself into a corner, but women are very much enjoying access to a lot of the luxuries that China has to offer them, but not the men - silk in particular is a big thing that wives will ask their merchant husbands to get for them. A lot of that kind of stuff mostly gets worn at home, but there's a slow gain in interest among women - especially women of means - who would kind of like to wear their perfume outside sometimes. And while this timeline in particular is always happy to give the nod to Abu Hurairah, some women in many of these societies, especially in the most urban parts of Andalusia, would like to not have to look scruffy when they go to the mosque.
Things are growing a little more orthodox in Senegambia - for ex, you will always find women covering the upper body - but even Andalusian women are kind of shocked at how liberal women in the Simala Kingdom can be. There has actually been a regnant queen or two in the Simala Kingdom, and in many families the woman acts as head of the household, especially among the Wolof. Outside imams think this is really strange, but try telling that to the women. The area is well-known by traders for how prominent women are.
Last edited:
I have been enjoying this timeline very much! On the topic of Andalusian women, wouldn't there be an impetus for women becoming freer earlier? Especially when wealthy and powerful women push the boundaries, as the Umayyad princess and poetess Wallada bint al-Mustakfi (1001 - 1091) who went out in public without a hijab, wearing transparent tunics. As said in the wiki article, she was highly criticized for her behavior by some imams but other people defended her. Perhaps Wallada has been butterflied away in this timeline but wouldn't her daring mean certain elite women would try to push the boundaries for freedom? More so when they learn of cultures like the Wolof? When I read of the 'Calipha' Majin, I was looking forward to read more of such daring women. To me, this part of later Andalusian culture seems to be slightly lacking in this timeline.
Planet of Hats
Donor
We can probably touch on that more, if people are interested in hearing more about women's history; I haven't really played with it much after Majin. Worth noting that not all women are going to have the social power or standing to flout wearing hijab, but it does happen here sometimes. I've been glossing over a few of these topics largely because I've been trying very hard not to get so bogged down in details that I progress at about a decade per RL year, but I suppose the details are where the fun lives.
Thank you for your response, Planet. It can be just a throwaway line or short paragraph if it's getting to be too much for you. Or even just a non-TL post as a side info. I would think that women would have a bit more role, not just because of fascinating people like Wallada but also because of Subh, Hisham II's mother. Her OTL preference and support for Muhammad ibn Abi Aamir led to dictatorship in Al-Andalus and eventually a fitna that shattered that state. That's quite a pivotal role. Courses of history have been drastically changed because of sex and/or love.
Now for a fun question: How would the Andalusians react if they had come upon the Caribbean and Mesoamerica as depicted in the 'Land of Sweetness' timeline? 😁
Now for a fun question: How would the Andalusians react if they had come upon the Caribbean and Mesoamerica as depicted in the 'Land of Sweetness' timeline? 😁
Congratulations on the Turtledove !! This is more than well deserved. This timeline has been such a pleasure to read !
Planet of Hats
Donor
The votes aren't counted yet and it's possible that an army of bots came out of the woodwork and voted for me, but if that doesn't happen, I'm incredibly grateful that people voted for Moonlight and have enjoyed reading it over the years. It's nice to know my work has resonated with people.