Moonlight in a Jar: An Al-Andalus Timeline

[Al-numbers]

I'm still sitting on the, "retrofitting local pyramids to become mosques," hill as the Andalusis convert Mesoamerica, and I'm staying on this hill!

Either that, or have local converts create their own spin on mosque architecture, like how traditional mosques are built in Malaysia and Indonesia with pagoda-like roofs and towering points.

 

[Nivek]

I'm still sitting on the, "retrofitting local pyramids to become mosques," hill as the Andalusis convert Mesoamerica, and I'm staying on this hill!

That is one of the very unique spin of TTL, i one want to be expanded too

Whether Andalus decides to annex breakaway vassals (unlikely) or supports new indigenous realms which follow Islam (likelier) is all author's fiat, but either totally changes the cultural and racial dynamics of the new world in a totally unrecognizable way.

The procedure of Andalus is getting allies in the continent and complete colonization of the carribean islands, the Taino Kingdom was a brutal affair(make sense, the portugese and spanish conqueror equivalent still reside on Andalus)meaning the mixed approach.

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

I'm uncertain to what extent, I'm not sure what drives linguistic assimilation (like the spread of Arabic across the Arab World), hybridization (like the development of Old Church Slavonic), or resistance (like the continued existence of Iranic languages or Turkic languages)

It took a very long time to islamise Egypt, and India was only ever partly islamised and that too only in regions with a very weak textual tradition. Moreover despite being firmly part of dar al Islam for 600 years, some parts of Bengal maintained human sacrifice to the 19th century. Not going to lie I think there’s a decent chance cawania has at least a pagan plurality in the modern day, even if it’s not a majority- perhaps the Mixtecs, with their folding codexes guarding their pre contact traditions are barely islamised at all? Especially with the situation of Maya city states, I would posit a rajput like situation where if pagan city states acknowledge the superiority of an Islamic one, they are allowed to continue on in their religion, barring some particularly abhorrent practices.

 

[Nyvis]

It took a very long time to islamise Egypt, and India was only ever partly islamised and that too only in regions with a very weak textual tradition. Moreover despite being firmly part of dar al Islam for 600 years, some parts of Bengal maintained human sacrifice to the 19th century. Not going to lie I think there’s a decent chance cawania has at least a pagan plurality in the modern day, even if it’s not a majority- perhaps the Mixtecs, with their folding codexes guarding their pre contact traditions are barely islamised at all? Especially with the situation of Maya city states, I would posit a rajput like situation where if pagan city states acknowledge the superiority of an Islamic one, they are allowed to continue on in their religion, barring some particularly abhorrent practices.

Well yeah but neither Egypt nor Bengal faced the same kind of societal failure. Institutional religion will take a big hit as the diseases hit the natives. It's more likely you'll see heavy syncretism than pagan religions surviving entirely intact.

 

[Nivek]

What'll really raise eyebrows is when an Otomi king finally manages to go on the hajj.

That would be fun anyway

 

[Planet of Hats]

That would be fun anyway

No doubt.

In other news, I am alive, but I've been struggling with a non-COVID illness that's been significantly inconveniencing me in terms of time to sit down and write. My hope is that it'll clear up imminently and I can get back to things.

 

[Contrary]

I'm so sorry, Planet. Hope you feel better soon.

 

[Planet of Hats]

I'm so sorry, Planet. Hope you feel better soon.

I think I will. It's mostly frustrating, not life-threatening or anything, but together with COVID isolation and working from home, my creative drive's getting crushed. It's hard to write AH when my normal AH-writing station is also where I spend eight hours a day working.

 

[Nivek]

I think I will. It's mostly frustrating, not life-threatening or anything, but together with COVID isolation and working from home, my creative drive's getting crushed. It's hard to write AH when my normal AH-writing station is also where I spend eight hours a day working.

At least those are reinsurance news, i did belive the worst...still yeah this have to be the more awful thing with the whole pandemic, the telework did overwork people more

 

[LostInNewDelhi]

the telework did overwork people more

Mandatory meetings on Saturdays type beat

I'm still sitting on the, "retrofitting local pyramids to become mosques," hill as the Andalusis convert Mesoamerica, and I'm staying on this hill!

When we were tossing this idea around earlier it was decided that pyramids could probably become the facades of new mosques but now I'm not so sure. The symbolism in the architecture of a pyramid and a mosque are totally different-- each level of the pyramid, the ascent from bottom to top, and even sending a dead body rolling down the stairs are all what pyramids were built to represent. Meanwhile I feel like mosques are supposed to be as flat as possible-- no one is ascending or descending anywhere, at least not yet. You could keep the pyramid and then just build an enclosed space around it, but 1) "big pre-Islamic structure in the middle of a Grand Mosque" sounds way too much like the Kaaba and 2) Mesoamerican pyramids are really big, plenty of them are bigger than the Egyptian pyramids (and some are built to be wider than a regular pyramid, making them even harder to enclose). You could simply make the roofs of an otherwise normal building more pyramid-esque but that's more cosmetics than anything. I suppose you could also slice a few layers off the top and use the remainder as a raised platform to build a mosque on but that's about as "native" as the Qorikancha. Still could lead to a cool contrast effect though, between the foundation and the structure on top.

But if we're looking for a recognizably Mesoamerican aesthetic, Mesoamerican stone-reliefs and murals would be a great way to depict illustrations of important stories, and covering enormous lengths of wall with relief/mural images is already part of the local architectural tradition. So the mosque might have a pyramid roof but the part with greater continuity with the past might be the outer wall covered with a semasiographic map of the Hajj route (Mesoamerican paintings are symbolically detailed enough to convey whole narratives, these wall-reliefs could easily be more like instructions than simple illustrations).

 

[haider najib]

When we were tossing this idea around earlier it was decided that pyramids could probably become the facades of new mosques but now I'm not so sure. The symbolism in the architecture of a pyramid and a mosque are totally different-- each level of the pyramid, the ascent from bottom to top, and even sending a dead body rolling down the stairs are all what pyramids were built to represent. Meanwhile I feel like mosques are supposed to be as flat as possible-- no one is ascending or descending anywhere, at least not yet. You could keep the pyramid and then just build an enclosed space around it, but 1) "big pre-Islamic structure in the middle of a Grand Mosque" sounds way too much like the Kaaba and 2) Mesoamerican pyramids are really big, plenty of them are bigger than the Egyptian pyramids (and some are built to be wider than a regular pyramid, making them even harder to enclose). You could simply make the roofs of an otherwise normal building more pyramid-esque but that's more cosmetics than anything. I suppose you could also slice a few layers off the top and use the remainder as a raised platform to build a mosque on but that's about as "native" as the Qorikancha. Still could lead to a cool contrast effect though, between the foundation and the structure on top.

Let's just say that some imams might get grouchy about their new subjects drawing art that portrays God as a huge water bird in an eastern flower heaven and Muhammad as a man with a canoe.

Islam does not seem to be orthodox a form in mesoamerica in its early times as they have adopted a lot of traditional stuff, so re-organising the pyramid temples is not far fetched, the argument can be made its easier for the iman to do it from the top to be heard. Plain racism separating natives from colonisers. Or they justify it as jinn business the 'obvious jinn activity' means they pray here as well so leave it be as we will damage faithful jinn praying area.

 

[Nivek]

Islam does not seem to be orthodox a form in mesoamerica in its early times as they have adopted a lot of traditional stuff, so re-organising the pyramid temples is not far fetched, the argument can be made its easier for the iman to do it from the top to be heard. Plain racism separating natives from colonisers. Or they justify it as jinn business the 'obvious jinn activity' means they pray here as well so leave it be as we will damage faithful jinn praying area.

But still far more exotic at times the usual/orthodoxy, still i was for did convert the old pyramid, not waste those places and converting pagan temple in mosque is already a well done tradition

 

[lotrian]

In my opinion, the main goal of converting the places of worship of other religions to yours is to deny the access to those other religions while expanding access to yours.
I don't see why Andalusis wouldn't do it here.

 

[inawarminister]

As long as all the idols are torn down and destroyed, it'll be fiiiine....

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

As long as all the idols are torn down and destroyed, it'll be fiiiine....

Even if they're not all destroyed it'll be fine- the earliest mosques in India, back when there wasn't a ready supply of Muslim masons and labourers, were largely constructed from Hindu and Jain temples and kept the ornate statuary on the pillars and roofs, even if the largest of the statues may have been destroyed

 

[Planet of Hats]

So as regards my absence.

My so-called mild health issue has turned out to be somewhat more chronic. I've recently come back from a significant health scare that put me in the hospital for several days, and while I'm on the right meds now to keep me from hopefully ever going back, I'm still pretty shaken and focused entirely on healing and adjusting to some changes I'll have to make in life.

Is Moonlight dead? No - absolutely not. If all goes well, my mind's going to be sharper than ever. But I'm going to need a bit of time to heal and find my legs medically and mentally. Don't stop watching this space - there's still a moon shining over this world, even if the man behind the moon is a little battered.

 

[Jordal]

Best of luck with your health issues. This is a great TL

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

So as regards my absence.

My so-called mild health issue has turned out to be somewhat more chronic. I've recently come back from a significant health scare that put me in the hospital for several days, and while I'm on the right meds now to keep me from hopefully ever going back, I'm still pretty shaken and focused entirely on healing and adjusting to some changes I'll have to make in life.

Is Moonlight dead? No - absolutely not. If all goes well, my mind's going to be sharper than ever. But I'm going to need a bit of time to heal and find my legs medically and mentally. Don't stop watching this space - there's still a moon shining over this world, even if the man behind the moon is a little battered.

Hey man, take all the time you need. #1 is always your health and well-being. We're all praying and rooting for you to recover. Once you do return, we'll all be here. Stay healthy, Hat.

 

[Al-numbers]

As a person who's been there, take care of yourself first.

 

[John Spangler]

Sorry about your troubles, @Planet of Hats. I wish you a fast recovery.