Mithras Supreme

Tom_B

Celestial Spheres

tom said:
(Truth to be told, these stories are sometimes spread by Mithraic missionaries).

LOL!
Since Astrology is so important in this religion, Norman, how did the Mithraists react to
1) Supernovae and close up novae and
2) Discovery of asteroids, Uranus, Neptune, moons, etc.?

BTW, 1971 would be a good discovery date. Since Mithras had recovered its 1802 technology by 1900 and was starting to move again, even a slow rate of progress could give it something a decade or two beyond present day OTL.
Click to expand...

The Mithraists probably have a notion common to some of the Gnostics of the soul progressing through seven celestial spheres--Moon, Venus, Mercury, Sun, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn before reaching the True Spiritual World in the realm of the fixed stars. The sevenfold levels of the initiates may have some correspondence. The discovery of other planets upsets this schema. However modern astrologists have adjusted to this and after some period of squabbling the Mithraists adjust. One possibility is two levels are added over Father.
 
tom

tom

HELP!

The Interplanar Alliance wants short paragraph descriptions of the governments of each of the major nations. This is an area I am really squishy in. I figured the Mithraic ones might be meritocracies, the Coptic ones something like the UK and who knows what the Khanates might be like by now, or the "native" nations in the New World and Oceania. Here is a chance for someone to put some more input into this world. Here is my latest map and key:
The light brown in northeast North America is New Thorland.
The brown of most of North America is New Saxonland.
The dark brown to the south is New Leoland.
The maroon in south Mexico is Tenokauatl.
The light yellow of western South America is The Dominion of the Incan People.
The Green of eastern South America is the New Lycian Federation.
The dark green of the north Atlantic is Eerland (Ireland), New Eerland (Iceland)
and Iceland (Greenland).
The yellow of Scandinavia is Thorland.
The light purple of England is Saxonland
The red of Iberia is Leoland.
The dark purple of Europe is New Mithrasland
(even the natives call it that now).
The pine green of Italy is Gothland.
The light gray of northwest Africa is the Saharan Coptic Empire.
The gray of Asia Minor and northeast Africa is the Turkic Coptic Empire.
The white of the Arabian peninsula is the Arabic Coptic Empire.
The blue of western Asia is the Hind Khanate.
The light Blue of East Asia is the Chien Khanate.
The purple of australia is Bandibaga.
The black of south Africa are various "Third World" nations.

mithrasX.GIF
 

Norman

Hind Khanate

Let me suggest that we have a caste based type assemblage. Citizens are born into different castes, and each of the castes has representatives to in what is know as the assemble of the People.

The castes are based (in theory) on one's progress to enlightenment.
 
tom

tom

Norman:
Maybe based on some earlier version of Indian government? Remember, the Buddhist Mongols have converted most of the country in their centuries of rule...only 100 million Hindus now out of what may be over a billion citizens. Or does Buddhism use castes too? If so, that might be good for Chien, too.
 

Norman

Chien is a bit different, I'm thinking that there is essentially a schism between the buddhism practiced in the Khanates. The Chein would probably be more autocratic and mercantile. How about a mercantilistic Oligarchy? Similar to Castes, these ruling families involve themselves in complicated political maneuvering behind the Khanate Golden throne.
 
tom

tom

How about the Coptics? Each probably has a similar government, derived from the original (each thinks of itself as the "true" Coptic Empire). And any ideas on the Native or Mithraic nations?
 

Norman

Coptic Arabs

Inherited Theocracy. The Coptic Spiritual Leader traces his ancestry back to the Queen of Sheba and Solomon (as did the Ethiopian Emperor). In addition, Coptic Dogma holds that Jesus and Mary Magdelen had a son, called James, who married the descendant of Solomon and Sheba, thereby fully bridging the old and the new.

This man is part of a ruling clan that selects the next Leader from members of this clan.
 

Tom_B

tom said:
Norman:
Maybe based on some earlier version of Indian government? Remember, the Buddhist Mongols have converted most of the country in their centuries of rule...only 100 million Hindus now out of what may be over a billion citizens. Or does Buddhism use castes too? If so, that might be good for Chien, too.
Click to expand...

Buddhism clearly rejected the caste system.
 

Norman

Sure - but remember that in india even the muslims have castes If we see militant buddhism as a cultural overlay, we get buddhism with castes
 

Tom_B

tom said:
How about the Coptics? Each probably has a similar government, derived from the original (each thinks of itself as the "true" Coptic Empire). And any ideas on the Native or Mithraic nations?
Click to expand...

I am thinking that Mithraism is likely to evolve two institutions. One is a formal council of senior officers that have a say in policy. Part modern military junta but part Knights of the Round Table in its better manifestation. Another is is the Mithraists assigns kings and nobles and "adviser" who is selected by the Fathers (and would not be a Father in most instances). This person would be a considerable influence on sovereigns, who discover that those that completely disregard their "adviser" end up deposed sometimes slain.
 

Tom_B

Norman said:
Sure - but remember that in india even the muslims have castes If we see militant buddhism as a cultural overlay, we get buddhism with castes
Click to expand...

Islam is an Abrahamic religion. Mohammed proably knew very little if anything about Hinduisim. His followers later expand into Hindu lands. They hate many things about Hinduism--its apparent polytheism, reincarnation, Vedantic impersonalism, etc. Way down their list of theological concerns is the caste system and they might be convinced that as a purely social political structure it could be permitted in a modified form.

Buddhism started in India and was among other things a strong reaction to the highly Brahmanical form of Hinduism practiced then. In reaction to Buddhism, Hinduism later went through its own sort of Counter Reformation. So a rejection of caste is more central to Buddhism than Islam due to the nature of their very different origins.
 

Norman

Muslim Castes in India.

Tom B

I recall reading somewhere that in India the muslims have adopted some features of the caste system. (to me this is an example of a cultural overlay, you lay a new cultural factor on top of an existing one, the old one pops up through the new one. In this case, the old Hindu system pops into and is adopted by the new Muslim system)

Thus, a POD that constructs a militant Buddhism, may end up having many of the precepts of the religion overlaid on top of the previous cultural characteristics, (in this case the caste system.)
 
tom

tom

New Mithrasland is the re-creation of what had been one of history's mightiest empires under its great leaders, centuries ago. The eastern fragments had long dreamed of reuniting the nation, and had finally succeeded. What kind of government would this imply? Leoland was formed from a military alliance, I suppose this would make a confederation the most likely government for it to have. New Leoland might take this tradition with them. Saxonland, Gothland and Thorland grew from the Germanic realms corresponding to those in OTL early dark ages, perhaps a constitutional monarchy now? And their New World offspring might be forced into something like our American government, for similar reasons, since they would likely be composed of similar immigrants. The Incan Empire once ruled most of New Lycia and then fell, but its former subject people retained much cultural cohesion and eventually joined up into a native nation to resist the Western tide, this might also imply a confederation. Tenokauatl descends from the Aztecs' analog...I figure something like OTL Japan would be a good version of their government, with the emperor as a figurehead after losing several wars over their rather militant society. Do these sound like I am on the right track with my thinking?
 
tom

tom

If I didn't blow my calculations, here are the populations of the major nations:
New Thorland 35 million
New Saxonland 300 million
New Leoland 265 million
Tenokauatl 115 million
Dominion of the Incan People 275 million
New Lycian Federation 235 million
subsaharan Africa 320 million
Saharan Coptic Empire 60 million
Turkic Coptic Empire 350 million
Arabic Coptic Empire 65 million
Leoland 60 million
Mithrasland 230 million
Gothland 75 million
Thorland 30 million
Hind Khanate 1500 million
Chien Khanate 1700 million
There are also some minor nations like Eerland and Bandibaga.
 

Norman

I like your plans for the 'aztec' Tenokauatl, it makes sense to me. I also agree that the Northern continent would be governed as a republic, or even (dare I say) and electronic democracy, with key public votes on what the "sense of the people" is on a regular basis through an internet analog.
 
tom

tom

I will give the people a day or two more to post thoughts while I mull it some, then post my guesses for the governments and give you a chance to reply. If they pass muster, I'll email them to the IA maillist and they will be "official".
 
tom

tom

How do these look?

Thorland
An elaboration of the system the Norse followed
OTL, with Kings and Things and Althing, expanded and
streamlined with modern technology. Probably
the highest level of personal freedom in Mithras.

Eerland
Monastically ruled as a theocracy by the Catholic
Church (the Holy See was located here for centuries),
rather like Tibet was at one time. Population is
nearly all Catholic, and the Abbots and Bishops
run the State as well as the Church.

Leoland
Once a military alliance, this nation has evolved
into a representational republic with similarities
to the United States of America. The Firstman's terms
cannot be consecutive and run for five years.
The Hand of the Law has five Judges. The Council
is bicameral by population or not, like Congress.

New Mithrasland
An empire imposed over peoples who, in the western part,
do not necessarily like being part of the empire, sort of
like the old Soviet Union. A military junta of Mithraists
selects major leaders and the King, as well as his cabinet.
Going against the junta generally leads to the demise
of the offender.

Gothland
Similar to New Mithrasland, but here the Council
of Ten Fathers is choosen for Mithraic rather than
military expertise. The fact that virtually the
entire population is Mithraic also further amplifies
the power and authority of the Council.

Saharan Coptic Empire
Turkic Coptic Empire
Arabic Coptic Empire
All three have essentially the same form of government,
dating back centuries to the time of the Coptic Breaking.
A ruling clan, which claims descent from Solomon and
the Queen of Sheba through Jesus and Mary Magdelen chooses
the leaders of the Empire and Provinces from among themselves.

subsaharan Africa
Similar to OTL, except there are even more nations
and the upper elite have access to a little better technology.
Most of the nations are autocratic dystopias, where the
vast majority of people lead lives scarcely better than
their counterparts in OTL.

Hind Khanate
An Assembly of Representatives are choosen, three from each
Caste that a person is born into. This was originally based
supposedly on degree of enlightenment before rebirth, now
it is based on vocation of family or ancestry. The Buddhists
tried to eliminate this feature of Hindu culture, but this
was not a priority and it still lingers. The Foreman of the
Assembly is chosen annually. He can be choosen more than
once but is not supposed to. A judicial tribunal interprets
the law which the Assembly passes and the foreman enforces.

Chien Khanate
A highly bureaucratic mercantile oligarchy runs this country
behind the Golden Throne in a system resembling an exaggeration
of the Imperial Chinese system. Governance is quite complicated,
and connections are imperative to get anything you want done.

Bandibaga
An aboriginal "nation" resembling a giant American Indian
Reservation, run by the Chien Khanate. The standards of living
are fairly decent here though, since the Khanate sincerely
wants to do right by its subjects.

New Saxonland
Electronic Democracy. Supervisor elected by popular vote.
Serves for a six year term, cannot serve again.
Unicameral Assembly by population. Seven man National Court.
Issues are decided by simple majority, with some
constitutional protection of minorities. Votes are
taken over the Clique of Cliques (internet analog).

New Leoland
Electronic Democracy. Manager elected by popular vote.
Bicameral Assembly based on residence, and "position"
or vocation. Issues are decided by simple majority,
with constitutional safeguards more extensive than
New Saxonland's. Ten man National Court, manager
can break ties. Votes are taken over the
Knowledge Quilt (competing internet analog).

New Thorland
Virtually the same as Thorland's government.

Tenokauatl
After losing a series of wars to New Leoland, Tenokauatl
has decided to take the best of its Aztec culture and
the Mithraic one of New Leoland and be better than both.
The emperor is a beloved figurehead who unites and inspires
the people. It is similar to OTL postwar Japan with a First
Chief on the Council of Chiefs who governs the country.

Dominion of the Incan Peoples
New Lycian Federation
Although these had very different origins, they evolved very
similar governments. The Dominion formed from the fragments
of the old Incan Empire, the Federation from a number of
colonies established by adventurous Mithraists who wished
to form their own systems of government. The different tribes
and the small Lycian nations each joined as mutual defense
leagues and developed into Confederacies. They are sometimes
listed in references as their separate component parts, and
have fairly free hand in internal government.
 
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