Mithras Supreme

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by tom, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. tom Member

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    From Norman's PM:

    Let's consider what is happening in New Phrygia, we have a European Disease environment, and pretty strong population growth in Europe (due to a better understanding of basic hygiene).

    Countering these pressures, we probably have Mithraic warrior 'societies' / war bands, that seek out the best warriors and don't really care where they come from, only that they are good.

    I believe that this would result in fairly fast westward expansion of ideas, techniques and even people, but also an integration of larger indian groups into the grand scheme of things. Native Warrior societies would eat up some of Mithrasm's belief systems, and the Mithraic hierarchy with it's ravens, lions and other symbols, would also be attractive to warriors.

    But the expansion will run into the extremely bloody and violent Aztecs (Nahuatl). Do they run into them before or after the technology has arrived?, I think after, so we have the Nahuatl Empire in the South expanding into our Northern Mexico and South Texas, a bunch of (by now) nomadic tribesmen with both horses and Mithraic overlays on top of native belief systems, and (from the East) a European dominated Mithraic culture.

    By this time the Nahuatl are probably armored, not many horses, although some are beginning to arrive, so they'd be largely infantry.

    Facing them we have very mobile, ightly armored tribesmen, backed by the more advanced Eastern Kingdoms of New Phyria.
     
  2. Dan Guy Member

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    States?

    Do u know any of the germanic and gaulish states?
    Iberia looks united was it part of a christian conquest?
     
  3. tom Member

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    Dan:
    Do you mean names by "know"?
    I did not bother to name them.
    "Iberia" (Leoland) is Mithraic.
     
  4. tom Member

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    Mithras 1600

    Decided to go one century at a time...things are happening faster and faster and besides, that is how people usually know history.
    Got to use the world map now...so at least you can see it in one look.
    New Phrygia is four nations. Going north to south, they are New Thorland, New Saxonland, New Leoland and whatever the Aztecs would call their land (settlement of the three Mithraic ones is still concentrated in the east).
    South America (name, someone) has some straggly Mithraic settlements but is claimed by the Incan Empire.
    The eastern part of old Mithrasland has reunited and is called Mithrasland by its inhabitants, and New Mithrasland by everybody else. This was helped by an attempted expansion by the Khanate of Sabir in the North, which historically felt it got the bad slice of the pie. The Khanates of Hind and Chien are more concerned with controlling their restive populations, leaving the Mung Khanate to bask in its central position. Sabir was defeated by the 4 western Mithraic nations, which have entered the Scientific-Industrial Revolution full steam (sorry ;) ), leaving the Mithrasland area a backwater technologically. The 4 Khanates no longer even maintain the pretense of unity. The Egyptian part of the former Coptic Empire dominates in sub-saharan Africa, and has begun proslytizing the natives. Australia (again, name?) has been discovered and is being explored.
    The world is about 40% Buddhist, 30% Mithraic, 20% Coptic and 10% Orthodox, with a scattering of other Faiths (including, of course, Catholicism).
    Catholicism's position is similar to first half 20th Cen Judaism, ranging from "some of my best friends..." down to ghettos and even progroms, depending where you are. Jews are even smaller in number, but are much better off.

    mithras7.GIF
     
  5. tom Member

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    Mithras 1700

    During the 17th Century, the settlements on New Lydia (S. America) grew into sizable colonies, but the Incas still dominate. The New Phrygian nations are now completely independent of their mother countries, and New Saxonland has grown greatly at the expense of New Thorland. New Leoland has nibbled away at the Aztecs. The long wars of attempted reunification of Mithrasland have succeeded partially, but they have quite a ways to go. The Coptic Empires attempts to reunify have only weakened the daughter empires and redrew a few borders...to the extent that Coptic Egypt lost its subsaharan holdings. Similarly, the Khanate of Sabir's attempts to expand into Europe only allowed the Khanate of Mung (looking ahead for new resources) to overrun it. The first settlements are appearing on Australia. Technology corresponds to Wild West/Victorian England level.

    mithras6.GIF
     
  6. Dan Guy Member

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    Sorry did not mean to ask for the full descriptive details it can be annoying! ;) There is just simply to many details to an ATL of this kind so pardon me for asking you of such burdens!
     
  7. DominusNovus Humbled by Fate

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    looks very good guys, keep up the good work. :)
    They'll be good candidates for the ICN.
     
  8. tom Member

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    Mithras 1800: The Hot Peace

    The main map changes occurred in New Lycia with the fall of the Incan Empire, and in Africa with the Consolidation Wars. Like three scorpions in a bottle, the Christians (light Blue), the Mithraists (yellow) and the Buddhists (light brown) warily maneuver and feint with their stingers (boy, I sure hope these colors come through). The atomic superpowers are New Saxonland, The Coptic Empire of Egypt and the Mung Khanate, each at least comparable to 2004 UK in OTL. The black areas are disputed between the Big Three, although New Lycia is dominated by the Mithraists, Africa by the Christians, and Bandibaga (Australia) and the ocean islands by the Buddhists. Proxy and brushfire wars are increasingly common. Technology is equivalent to c1970 OTL.

    mithras7.GIF
     
  9. Dan Guy Member

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    Good TL

    Good TL so far Tom! I wonder if u could give us a description of world in comparence to ours on social-political level. It would be pretty fascinating to say the least givin that the POD was almost 2ooo years ago. It looks to be a major imperilist world so I wonder if race relations and attiudes are the same as OTL Victorian era.
     
  10. tom Member

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    Dan:
    Good question. Me, Norman and maybe Tom B will have to think about that.
    One comment is that the ancient Mithraists were surprisingly egalitarian...within a mithraeum, a slave could outrank an Emperor.
     
  11. Norman Member

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    I think one thing is clear, with a POD of 2000 years ago, our concepts of race (which basically derive from the 1500's) will not exist.

    Probably 'race' will be important, but it will defined differently. For example, we can define the traits that define race as language, 'cultural literacy' (meaning that a race shares common literacy), and some additional traits, such as family or clan connection, which means the color of one's skin has nothing to do with race.

    Similarly, we could have (in the Khanates) as sort of caste system that spreads out of India. Again, having little to do with our modern concept and more with some other cultural indicatiors.
     
  12. Tom_B Member

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    Cultural Evolution

    Obviously no Prohibition, no war on drugs, no STD's and the sexual revolution occurs early and just gets wilder and wilder

    NOT

    Sorry but I couldn't resist the opportunity for some well needed sarcasm.

    Norman-- I must differ a bit on the issue of race. I think the notion of white race, black race, yellow race, red race is inevitable at some point. But the Mithraist culture overall would be less concerned about heredity than OTL European culture. Mithraism would emphasize personal merit, ethical behavior, spiritual knowledge, courage. Who your Daddy was is much less important. As I remarked before some sort of inheritance of governace would be accepted grudgingly by the Mithraists with its origin in traditions of the absorbed cultures and not Mithraism itself. As time goes on there is probably some philosophers who will make a big deal out of the significance of people's skin complexions but they would by the exception not the rule. One other thing to note is the Mithraists do not have the Old Testament in their canon and the OT does place a big emphasis on blood lines and chosen people and can be (and was OTL) misinterpreted as a justification for racism.

    However the Mithraists are not perfect. They have an Achilles Heel and that is women. I speculate that an early emergence of something akin to feminism is highly likely as women demand admittance to the Inner Mysteries.

    Another Achilles Heel is the Age of Aquarius. Mithraism started at the beginning of the Age of Pisces and its theology is astronomically based. The approach of the Age of Aquarius will cause all manner of agitation.

    Tom B
     
  13. Straha Banned

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    dammit tom you beat me to saying it
     
  14. Norman Member

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    TomB
    I am basing my idea on an article I read in the Scientific American (about a year ago) which tried to establish this thing we call 'race'. I derived two basic understandings, first, human beings being what we are, like to divide the world into 'us and them'. It's just that the measure used in the past to make the division are not always the same ones we use now. In short, the color of one's skin, just wasn't as central in defining race in the past as it is today. I do not mean to say that it didn't exist, only that it wasn't as central.

    Examples of this can be seen all over the place, even today. India's caste system certainly approaches an us vs. them sort of thinking that is (by now) not based on an individual's skin color, but on some other less easilly defined measure. In Japan, the Ethnic Japanese were and probably are prejudiced against the Koreans who have lived among them for years, even though to Europeans there is little difference between the two.

    I am suggesting that in a Mithraic worldview, skin color wouldn't be seen as central to the concept of what makes up a race.

    Second, I like the idea of the sexual divide proving to be an issue. In a more developed world you need to use every mind you can get to keep the complex thing going. At some point you are going to have the society fracture as the previously parallel belief systems (Mithra for men , Isis for Women) begin to move into the others 'traditional areas of influence'.

    For example, at some point the field medicine of Mithra, with its early understanding of infection, will conflict with the birthing knowledge of the Isis cults.
     
  15. tom Member

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    March 2, 1802. In OTL Mardi Gras is being celebrated. In Mithras, a very different event in happening.
    In the African state of Damot, a civil war is raging between forces allied with the Christians and forces allied with the Mithraists. One of the sides (does it really matter which?) uses one of the newly developed Fuel-Air bombs in battle for the first time - without authorization from its sponsor. The enemy misinterprets this as a tactical nuke and uses one of its own - it was ONLY to use them in retaliation or for special demolitions, but...
    March 3. OTL calls it Ash Wednesday, one of many. In Mithras, two centuries hence, the Christians will call it Noah's Fire. The Mithraists will call it the Rain of a Thousand Suns. The Buddhists will call it the Day of the Blood Mushrooms (or Umbrellas, depending on location). The survivors will call it things less printable. It will take generations to rebuild the world...
     
  16. tom Member

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    Mithras 1900

    New Phrygia weathered the War best (or rather, least badly), being the site of the strongest Power Bloc and partially protected by distance. In New Lycia, the former Incan nations banded together in a Confederation, as did the mixed Native/Mithraic coastal nations. In Africa and Europe, harder hit by the War, the opposite occurred, as territories banded together (temporarily) against any that got too strong, so the region stayed petty warlords. The Egyptian Empire was virtually destroyed and divided up by the Turkic and Saharan Coptic Empires. Similarly, the Mung Khanate was all but destroyed and divided between the Chien and Hind Khanates. The Hind Khanate took over much of Slavland and even eastern Europe, but is having trouble controlling the restive populations.
    New Saxonland was the only major developed nation to retain a large infrastructure, although it was seriously damaged. It had a promise of becoming the world's leading technology powerhouse, but a pronounced anti-technological backlash occurred there, and practically all research was halted. This spread to New Thorland annd New Leoland, the only remotely close competitors. At the end of the 19th Century, non-military research is resuming, spurred by resource shortages (especially petroleum), but it takes awhile to raise up a new generation of researchers, and it will be decades after the "Lost Lifetime" in science annd technology before things really get rolling full speed. Science annd technology are still at 20th Century levels.

    mithras8.GIF
     
  17. tom Member

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    Landmarks for IA tourists

    THE KIAWA TAUROCTONY
    Located near OTL Mt. Rushmore. A major national effort by the three Mithraic New Phrygian nations during the Hot Peace. The scorpion alone is the size of an OTL 18-wheeler. Details down to the scales on the snake and the dog's fur are lovingly carved. The largest tauroctony in the world by far.

    THE LUNDIN CRATER
    The only thermonuclear ground burst during the War (most were low air bursts). It is speculated that this was a malfunction, as it is located several miles "downrange" of the city's borders. It was still more than enough to obliterate the capital of Saxonland. The fused green glass is surprisingly attractive in the right angle of sunlight. The radiation, after some 200 years, is down low enough to make brief visits safe.

    Any other suggestions?
     
  18. tom Member

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  19. Norman Member

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    Hirtorical personalities

    As the world began to dig itself out of the wreckage of the nuclear war, some individuals began to stand forth as important, both positively and negatively.

    Paedrik Robbison, is a core figure that rose up in New Phyrigia. Leader of a Mithraic sect that held itself out to be purer than most, after the war had struck down Saxonland, declared that the 'Nuclear fires were Mithra's punishment of man for challanging the gods.'

    Although initially made fun off by others, he developed a solid base of supporters that over the next 50 years came to dominate the religious and educational centers of the Continent. Central to their belief was that man should not aspire to emulate the gods, but to obey the gods. As a result of this fundamentalist movement, the Mithra / Thor and Isis / Freya adherants began to institute somewhat bizarre practices as central to the mysteries of their beliefs.

    Soon universities, as a central tenet of their survival, began to focus most of their resources on courses dealing with religion and doctrine. Only members of the small Jewish and Christian sects, were allowed to continue their studies of nature unrestricted.
     
  20. Tom_B Member

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    Multiple Craziness

    My guess is any After the Bomb phase of cilization will experience multiple craziness. I think Chrisitanity which is overwhelming exoteric would be more likely than the still predominantly esoteric Mithraists to become fundamentalist--with apocalyptic ovetones--the Christians might even develop <shudder> dispensationalism and blather endlessly about the Rapture. Mithraism could get ugly but in somewhat different way such as:

    1] If women recently got admitted to the Inner Mysteries there would be a nasty antifeminist backlash

    2] The war might be blamed on a material science that deviated from itsHermetic origins and so science might be restricted to Initiates and would be in a gobbedlygook Hermetic form.

    3] Public revealation of the Mysteries would be blamed for the catastrophe--gruesome forms of executions which were phased out before the war would make a comeback.

    4] Mithraism would like become more ascetic.

    5] The approach of the Age of Aquarius would be tied into this and inspire all manner of Prophets of the New Age and maybe predictions of a Return of Mithras.

    It should be noted that the Buddhists would not be immune to the craziness. Expect prophecies about the Maitreya Buddha's immanent appearance.