Mithras Supreme

Leo Caesius

Banned
Here we go again...

Mithras was not a "pagan god-man." He was most emphatically a god.

Furthermore, Christianity and Mithraism were not at all alike early on. They may have grown to be more similar over an extended period of time through contact, but even that is debatable. Beck writes,
The term "Mithraism" is of course a modern coinage. In antiquity the cult was known as "the mysteries of Mithras"; alternatively, as "the mysteries of the Persians." The latter designation is significant. The Mithraists, who were manifestly not Persians in any ethnic sense, thought of themselves as cultic "Persians." Moreover, whatever moderns might think, the ancient Roman Mithraists themselves were convinced that their cult was founded by none other than Zoroaster, who "dedicated to Mithras, the creator and father of all, a cave in the mountains bordering Persia," an idyllic setting "abounding in flowers and springs of water" (Porphyry, On the Cave of the Nymphs 6).

Persia (or Parthia) in those times was Rome's great rival and frequently at war with her. Nonetheless, there is no indication that this antagonism was ever problematic for the Mithraists socially or politically. Clearly, their cultic "Persian" identity, which they made no attempt to hide, was acceptable to the authorities and their fellow citizens.

The socio-political acceptability of the Mithraists, despite their Perserie, can be explained largely by their social profile. They were the most conformist of men — and men indeed they were in the limited gender sense of the word, a factor which itself would add to their respectability or at least not detract from it (compare the charge against Christianity that it subverted the family by proselytizing the womenfolk). Mithraism drew its initiates disproportionately from the military, from the Empire's petty bureaucracy, and from moderately successful freedmen (i.e. ex-slaves), in fact from the retainer classes, the very people who had a stake in the current sociopolitical dispensation. (On Mithraism's social profile see Clauss 1992, Gordon 1972, Liebeschuetz 1994; Merkelbach 1984: pp. 153-88)

[...]

The scattering of mithraea, thus identified across the Roman Empire, is perhaps more informative about the cult's spread and social composition than are the material remains of any of its peers, early Christianity included. We have already looked at Mithraism's social catchment. As for its spread, though represented virtually everywhere in the Roman empire, it was much stronger in the Latin speaking West than in the (predominantly) Greek-speaking East. It flourished in particular in the city of Rome and its port, Ostia, and along the Rhine-Danube frontier — exactly where one would expect from its social profile. (For maps, see Clauss 1992, province by province).

[...]

In Syria it is the absence of data on any intermediary form of Mithraism that is remarkable (a Chestertonian "dog which did not bark"). With the single exception of the recently discovered Huwarti mithraeum, the few actual mithraea and the monuments lacking known provenance which have been recovered there exemplify either the norms of western Mithraism or minor variations on those norms. The Huwarti mithraeum, moreover, dates to the final decades of the fourth century CE. Accordingly, it speaks of the local redefinition of a religion in its final years, not of "a road not taken" in its formative years. Mithraism in Syria was not a transitional phase intermediate between East and West, but a back-formation from the West in the East.​
In short, originally Mithraism was popular in all the areas where Christianity was not, socially acceptable where Christianity was not, aimed explicitly at men where Christianity was not, and so on. There really is very little in common between the two.

If you're looking for good literature on Mithraism, here is a decent bibliography written by a scholar who is sympathetic to the Mithraic continuity hypothesis (despite the fact that it has fallen out of vogue in the last three decades) but nonetheless manages to keep his scruples unlike some other so-called scholars I could name.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
AMBOMB said:
Again, more bullshit. To start with, the idea that the Western Mithras is identical with the Persian Mihr, let along the Vedic Mitra, is no longer accepted by scholarship.
Early Christians established the dominance of their religion by exterminating Mithras' faithful, razing His temples, burning His sacred texts.
This is an out-and-out lie. To start with, there's absolutely no evidence for this. In fact, the situation is quite the opposite. The archaeological record abounds with evidence for the Mithraic cult where Christianity has left comparatively fewer traces. If the Early Christians established their dominance of their religion in this way, why is it that so much more evidence for Mithraism survives?
We do know He was buried in a tomb from which He rose again from the dead -- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing.
Again, total bullshit. We don't "know" this at all. I don't even know where this fellow got this idea.
Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God was born one more, putting an end to darkness. Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother.
Bullshit. Mithras was born from a fricking ROCK. Not a virgin mother, a R O C K.

How can you Pagan Godman people expect to convince anyone (excusing the extremely gullible) if the evidence you use is so obviously falsified? Case in point - that page about Mithra is remarkably fact-free. Whoever wrote it deliberately altered what we knew about Mithraism to make it sound more like Christianity.
 
Jesus Christ, AMBOMB! I specifically requested that you don't start this shit again and derail another thread. Especially this one! Its one of our most hallowed timelines!
 
Norman said:
Thus Freemasonry could be considered esoteric while the open practice of region not. Hmmm?

There is speculative Freemasonry which definitely could be considered an esoteric relgion. And then there is Craft freemasonry which is largely social (sometimes political).
 
Tom_B said:
There is speculative Freemasonry which definitely could be considered an esoteric relgion. And then there is Craft freemasonry which is largely social (sometimes political).

Now wouldn't it be interesting if one of the secrets of Free Masonry was that it represented the remnants of Mithraism??

Come to think of it my Grandfather was a Mason and had statues of bulls all over his house and office, including the mounted head of one which was killed under odd circumstances. Hmmmm!
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Actually, this has been suggested on occasion. James Russell has some articles on it (he's a Freemason and also an expert on pre-Christian Iranian religions).

Like Mithraism, Freemasonry came to be popular in the Near East, imported from the West. It's particularly big in Syria and Lebanon; Hafez al-Asad was a Mason. Interestingly, his lodge is an annex of the Grand Lodge of New York.
 
Leo Caesius said:
Actually, this has been suggested on occasion. James Russell has some articles on it (he's a Freemason and also an expert on pre-Christian Iranian religions).

Like Mithraism, Freemasonry came to be popular in the Near East, imported from the West. It's particularly big in Syria and Lebanon; Hafez al-Asad was a Mason. Interestingly, his lodge is an annex of the Grand Lodge of New York.

You do know that there would be a very cool conspiracy book in this set of facts - if you could get it published.
 
Leo Caesius said:
I hate that word.
Leo Caesius said:
Again, more bullshit. To start with, the idea that the Western Mithras is identical with the Persian Mihr, let along the Vedic Mitra, is no longer accepted by scholarship. This is an out-and-out lie. To start with, there's absolutely no evidence for this. In fact, the situation is quite the opposite. The archaeological record abounds with evidence for the Mithraic cult where Christianity has left comparatively fewer traces. If the Early Christians established their dominance of their religion in this way, why is it that so much more evidence for Mithraism survives?Again, total bullshit. We don't "know" this at all. I don't even know where this fellow got this idea.Bullshit. Mithras was born from a fricking ROCK. Not a virgin mother, a R O C K.

How can you Pagan Godman people expect to convince anyone (excusing the extremely gullible) if the evidence you use is so obviously falsified? Case in point - that page about Mithra is remarkably fact-free. Whoever wrote it deliberately altered what we knew about Mithraism to make it sound more like Christianity.

To be honest, Leo, I find the person/people who made that website more credible than I find you.
 
DominusNovus said:
Jesus Christ, AMBOMB! I specifically requested that you don't start this shit again and derail another thread. Especially this one! Its one of our most hallowed timelines!
When I'm contradicted, I respond. Deal with it!
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
AMBOMB said:
To be honest, Leo, I find the person/people who made that website more credible than I find you.
I'm not seeing the relevance of your personal beliefs. No one is asking you for your opinion of me, AMBOMB; if you want to talk about how you feel, that's your prerogative, but I'm busy highlighting the fact the website you posted about Mithraism is a big steaming load of bullshit.

Anyone who really wants to know the "facts" about Mithraism will start with the authoritative Encyclopaedia Iranica, which, fortunately for us, has a web presence.
 
What if here we're all thinking we live in a world run by various religions such as Christianity and Islam, when the real 'rulers fo the world' are hidden Mithraists?
 
Leo Caesius said:
I'm not seeing the relevance of your personal beliefs.
You don't see the relevence of my belief as to the relative credibility of you and the person/people who made the website when I determine who to believe?
 
AMBOMB said:
When I'm contradicted, I respond. Deal with it!
My problem is not with your views. Its where you choose to voice them. We've been over this before. There's a chat forum to discuss this kind of stuff. I'm sick of the actual alternate history forum being used to discuss off topic stuff.
 

Diamond

Banned
DominusNovus said:
My problem is not with your views. Its where you choose to voice them. We've been over this before. There's a chat forum to discuss this kind of stuff. I'm sick of the actual alternate history forum being used to discuss off topic stuff.
Totally in agreement here. This is why there's so few actual TL's here; we get people trolling in them and discouraging the authors.
 
DominusNovus said:
My problem is not with your views. Its where you choose to voice them. We've been over this before. There's a chat forum to discuss this kind of stuff. I'm sick of the actual alternate history forum being used to discuss off topic stuff.
My original message (message 174) was on topic. You posted a response disagreeing with me. So, I responded. It went from there.
 
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AMBOMB said:
My original message (message 174) was on topic. You posted a response disagreeing with me. So, I responded. It went from there.
Agreed. That post was on topic. And I knew that it could quickly get off topic. Thats why I said that you shouldn't get an argument going on the whole godman thing. This isn't the thread for it.
 
DominusNovus said:
Agreed. That post was on topic. And I knew that it could quickly get off topic. Thats why I said that you shouldn't get an argument going on the whole godman thing. This isn't the thread for it.
Actually, it was Leo who started that (message 181).
 
AMBOMB said:
Actually, it was Leo who started that (message 181).

message 179:
AMBOMB said:
Originally, Christianity was very much like Mithraism. Both were pagan mystery religions. The story of Mithras and the story of Jesus are both pagan godman myths. Literalist Christianity (practiced by people who think Jesus actually existed) got started later. That aside, if Constantine had picked Mithraism instead of Christianity, Mithraism would've been shown favoritism by the Roman government and so there would've been a lot more Mithraists, which is exactly what happened with Christianity.
Just please take it to the chat forum.
 
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