Would be interesting if they pulled a semi Brazil. If they got a Spanish princess to marry into the royal family. Would possibly make Mexico a receiver of Spanish investments instead of war
Here's my thread on that idea, kind of:

 

Basils

Banned
Here's my thread on that idea, kind of:

Seems we both fbi I that idea is very under used here. Also Spain going to Mexico makes the most sense.
 
A big thumbs up to your posts.

However, realistically, Louisiana is gone. In 1808, USA is in possession, and Mexico has to take it back. They aren't getting it through diplomacy. The only hope I see is if Mexico allies with Britain during the war of 1812. This would require Britain to have recognized Mexico as an independent nation, which will be tricky if Spain is still in contention. If Mexico has shut off funding, Spanish resistance may have collapsed. Or if still ongoing, there may be bad taste over Mexico having abandoned the mother country financially, and Britain having to pick up the slack. Hmmm, could this extra strain caused Britain to drop out, meaning Nap's Continental System wins? Bottom line, we can't depend on the rest of the Nap Wars to go as OTL. The original point here is that Mexico won't be able to get Louisiana back without help. Any dream of the border being the Mississippi River in 1832, OTL, is wishful thinking, devoid of reality. A stronger, stable Mexico will be able to push the border more favorably, but all of it is doubtful. In the immediate years post independence, Mexico will have too much on its plate to engage in a major war, and after that, USA is too firmly entrenched.

And having said that, I just remembered the USA annexing West Florida in 1810 or 11. This may not happen with Mexico seemingly stable. Would this Mexico claim sovereignty of the Floridas? Could they recognize them being too distant, and use them as bargaining chips in negotiations in the Louisiana border situation?

And in further stream of babbling, IF Mexican funding is what kept Spanish Ulcer bleeding, OTL, and in TTL Nap achieves victory, the rest of New Spain is now up for grabs, meaning Mexico might get Cuba and Puerto Rico and Central America. Too much of a wank to expect gains from the rest of Spanish South America.
Hi, First of all, thank you, As you can see I made my homework after I saw the question haha.

Now, let's go the point.
I was thinking about the Lousiana thing more like a precedent for a future conflict with the U.S in maybe... 1846? Because yes, in those first years the new republic will try to consolidate her position as an independent nation and the government will try to avoid any conflict with any other country, especially with the States for several reasons, the first one because is an ideological ally, the two countries share the republican ideas of liberty and equality before the law and all that stuff, actually in OTL the insurgentes were looking for recognition from America because of that, and second, you don't wanna be in conflict with your neighboor even before you are recognize even as a thing. In that time the difference of power wasn't that big between the two countries but still, is somenthing you want to avoid. So, I was thinking this more like to create a kind of irredentism movement in México in the future and have an strong nacionalist feeling between the mexicans that can united them as citizens to reunite the old territory of the old gloriuos New Spain, and for the other part we have the U.S trying to fulfill their Manifest Destiny. So yea, there will be a lot of tensión between these two.
 
About the Napoleonic wars, well that's a tricky one that I been trying to look more, because definitely, the stop of funding from Mexico will create a mess in Spain, but it will not leave a bad taste on the mexican people, actually they hated it. When the consolidación de Vales reales was executed in New Spain a lot of people lost their properties because the spanish government couldn't give them their money back, so technically they were left broke by the same crown. Actually, Gabriel de Yermo, the leader of the group of spanish traders that overthrow Viceroy Iturrigaray was affected by this policy and that's why he hated Iturrigaray and that's why he joined to the other spaniards. Now, about the international recognition, It would be hard, but not that much if we take in account that Britain wanted an independent Spanish America to commerce with, even if they were helping Spain in their war, that's why a lot of spanish people didn't trust that much in "La pérfida Albion". And even more if there's the chance that Napoleon recognized Mexico first, there's a lost opportunity that the british commerce get some bennefits and privileges, and of course they wouldn't do something like that. If Britain recognized Mexico first by, let's say 1812-1813, there will be a plenty of time before the congress of Viena is reunited, where maybe, the british delegates will try to encourage to the rest of the european nations to do the same, like in OTL when they were agree in not helping Spain to reconquer their old empire.
 
About the Floridas, well. Definitely they would be recognized as you said, bargaining chips in the future negotiations for the definition of a new border that maybe will look the same as the OTL 1819 Adams-Onis treaty, but with the difference that now Mexico will not cede their claims over Oregon. And about the last question, well, It will be a wank even if Spain still survives because when the national congress was an idea of Melchor de Talamantes he included representatives from all over the nation, that nation lnclude of curse, all Central America, except panamá, and Cuba and Puerto Rico.
 
but it will not leave a bad taste on the mexican people, actually they hated it.
Again, I agree with much of what you say. Here, though, there is misunderstanding... I meant the bad taste is on the part of Britain and Spain.

Spain is obvious - a colony is forcibly breaking free and depriving them of funding/trade. As with USA and Britain after that independence struggle, these differences can be overcome, but in the short term, there is dislocation of economy (actually, this is already torn asunder because of the massive Peninsula War) and the loss of funding.

Britain is more complicated. As you say, there is long term desire to separate the colonies and open them to British trade/economic domination. But this is tempered by a need to deny Spain to Napoleon and use the Peninsula War to bleed France.

Within Mexico, it is a complicated situation as well, with Criollos and Peninsulares vying for power, and businessmen and the Church balancing personal economic salvation with needs of the colony and mother country. Economic well being for some leads to economic deprivation for others, as you say. For a new country, national well being must be paramount over individual needs. Resources prior sent to Spain can now be retained for the good of Mexico. Overall, this should be welcomed, although there will be individuals who are disadvantaged in the divorce.
 
A war between the U.S. an Mexico on the heels of the Congress of Vienna would be interesting, but realistically, if Mexican independence is secured internally by 1810, the new nation most likely seeks a peaceful resolution to disputes with the United States in short order, which would preclude a claim to Louisiana particularly as in this era the U.S. already claimed, though did not rule, Texas.
 
Alternatively, perhaps Spain accepts independence of core Mexican territory but not all of New Spain, and makes up for the loss of Mexican resources aiding the war against France by selling peripheral areas like Florida, Tejas, Alta California, Nuevo Mexico to the United States?
 
in this era the U.S. already claimed, though did not rule, Texas.
I don't think USA claimed Texas, but rather claimed a very generous border.

If the war of 1812 still went on as OTL, USA is not going to be in the mood for a war, either, especially if Mexico has gained an easy independence and is looking stable. USA could afford to be as bellicose as they were OTL because the situation in New Spain/Mexico was so discombobulated.

IF Spain accepts a Mexican independence, they'll be looking to have as close ties as possible. Selling half of what Mexico claims as theirs isn't conducive to that. More likely is coming to a monetary agreement with Mexico as part of the independence treaty. Would USA have the money to purchase? They could barely scrape together enough for Louisiana, and then went to the edge of economic collapse in the war of 1812.
 
I don't think USA claimed Texas, but rather claimed a very generous border.

If the war of 1812 still went on as OTL, USA is not going to be in the mood for a war, either, especially if Mexico has gained an easy independence and is looking stable. USA could afford to be as bellicose as they were OTL because the situation in New Spain/Mexico was so discombobulated.

IF Spain accepts a Mexican independence, they'll be looking to have as close ties as possible. Selling half of what Mexico claims as theirs isn't conducive to that. More likely is coming to a monetary agreement with Mexico as part of the independence treaty. Would USA have the money to purchase? They could barely scrape together enough for Louisiana, and then went to the edge of economic collapse in the war of 1812.
Is there even still a War of 1812 here?
 
Is there even still a War of 1812 here?
Hard to say. Depends on how the POD affects the Peninsula War and USA politics. IF the Nap Wars stretch on, and USA political scene remains similar, no reason to think War of 1812 doesn't go on as OTL. I think there was a bit of discussion on this above. Might see USA backing off border claims if Mexico uses the opportunity wisely and threatens to join Britain.

Should the war be butterflied, though, USA doesn't learn the lessons about the shortcomings of the militia system, which would be a big benefit to Mexico IF a Mex-USA war break out. I'm a USA citizen, but am a bit tired of the alt history trends of USA always guaranteed to come out on top, Mexico always flounders. So...would be interesting to see no 1812, followed by USA blundering into a war with Mexico and losing. Mexico isn't really ready for the long distance war (which it would be for both sides), so a lot would depend on USA losing patience with a war over desert (both the real arid regions and the 'desert' grasslands of the plains), and looking to settle.
 
Alternatively, perhaps Spain accepts independence of core Mexican territory but not all of New Spain, and makes up for the loss of Mexican resources aiding the war against France by selling peripheral areas like Florida, Tejas, Alta California, Nuevo Mexico to the United States?
It is possible but I do not think they will sell everything. Another thing they could do with an early POD is to give Rio de la Plata its Independence with the condition of having a Spanish Bourbon as King and an eternal alliance (I doubt the latter will last long).
 
I’d note that the OTL Mexicans wanted Ferdinand or a Bourbon to stay on as king after independence. Ferdinand refused because he didn’t want to be bound by a constitution, and said that no European prince could take the throne. So any Bourbon staying on Mexico’s throne or marrying into it is pretty unlikely.

In general you can expect Ferdinand to do whatever will screw over Spain the most.
 
I’d note that the OTL Mexicans wanted Ferdinand or a Bourbon to stay on as king after independence. Ferdinand refused because he didn’t want to be bound by a constitution, and said that no European prince could take the throne. So any Bourbon staying on Mexico’s throne or marrying into it is pretty unlikely.

In general you can expect Ferdinand to do whatever will screw over Spain the most.
Fernando definitely not but with his Brother Francisco maybe an agreement could be reached.
 
Restarting this thread to ask a question to @minifidel.

Was there any way Buenos Aires could be affected by New Spain forming a junta in 1808? Could the chain of events that led to the May Revolution happen sooner? Lastly, since from what I know Santiago de Liniers was seen with suspicion by local conservatives, is there a way he could become leader of an independent Argentina, less because he wants to and more because he has no choice but to side with the independists?
 
Again, I agree with much of what you say. Here, though, there is misunderstanding... I meant the bad taste is on the part of Britain and Spain.

Spain is obvious - a colony is forcibly breaking free and depriving them of funding/trade. As with USA and Britain after that independence struggle, these differences can be overcome, but in the short term, there is dislocation of economy (actually, this is already torn asunder because of the massive Peninsula War) and the loss of funding.

Britain is more complicated. As you say, there is long term desire to separate the colonies and open them to British trade/economic domination. But this is tempered by a need to deny Spain to Napoleon and use the Peninsula War to bleed France.

Within Mexico, it is a complicated situation as well, with Criollos and Peninsulares vying for power, and businessmen and the Church balancing personal economic salvation with needs of the colony and mother country. Economic well being for some leads to economic deprivation for others, as you say. For a new country, national well being must be paramount over individual needs. Resources prior sent to Spain can now be retained for the good of Mexico. Overall, this should be welcomed, although there will be individuals who are disadvantaged in the divorce.
I think a lot of factors are not being looked at here when it comes to Mexico becoming independent earlier

For one, the fact that it was the criollo elite that wanted to push this movement is something that can't be understated. People from all sorts of other backgrounds were for the most part fine with the spanish even as far as economically, and its in the money and power were the criollos wanted to hog in all for themselves. But as for the people, what they actually saw more as a threat or annoyance was that Spain was becoming more liberal and because they thought that there was still a direct french monarchy controlling it. In this sense it's how a lot of the locals were tricked in OTL by Hidalgo so they thought that they were vying for the side of King Ferdinand VII by trying to become independent when it really wasn't the case, the criollos just wanted to have more power and that's it.

Another thing is that while Mexico's Otl indepedence was relatively peaceful compared to the independence movements in south america. It doesn't mean that the seeds of chaos by creating independizing weren't already sowed. Many later politicians would work on the side of masonry to sell mines and lands whether it belonged to the natives or not, to european power and the US. Not to mention that they also completely unrecognized the previous aztec and mayan nobles whose titles had been respected for 300 years, because the criollos both didn't like them nor wanted them to have any sort of power, and because it was the natives that would side more with Spain as a whole because of the contrast in treatment. The royalists after all were very much the natives most of the time, not just peninsulares or people from spain etc. How could’ve that even worked after all? Spain was way too busy at the time to deal with any other issue, and somehow the pushback that the caudillos faced were by peninsulares only?

This is especially exemplified when we look at the northern territories from Texas to the coasts of Alaska, people often say that these places were very underpopulated or sparse. Yet at the same time the spanish influence that was felt here still exists, from the very names of the cities and states to the facts that records show that the explorers that would go to these places would very often find natives who spoke fluent if not mainly spanish. For another example, did you know Geronimo spoke mainly spanish? But considering that these whole big territories were under New Spain, and that the criollo elite gave no care to natives in general. This gave the US the opportunity to abuse that weakness and to take over the territories. That’s exactly why the whole idea of Mexico or even spain selling those lands to the US sounds a lot like criollo masonry, considering that these lands weren’t just some empty bunch of nothing, thought wouldn’t be too unrealistic as even Benito Juarez was proposing to sell baja California to the US later on in history.

Another argument is about the capital that Spain was using up to deal with the war in the peninsula. But at the same time you have to look at it from a broader perspective and how it makes the criollos more bratty. Throughout the entire viceroyalty of New Spain, the actual pressures Spain ever put on that colony can only mainly be traced to this time period in particular because of how badly Spain got crippled as a result of Napoleon. At no other point did Spain ever sap out the resources of New spain or other territories as it did here, nor did it send any men from the viceroyalties to fight european wars or anything. These were more like roman provinces or well as the title viceroyalty suggests, an allied kingdom, not a colony as the english usage of just wealth extraction. So the fact that the criollos felt so indignified by this change (for pretty justifiable reasons) makes them more of an unsympathetic bunch. The viceroyalties after all had the benefit of always being in a state of peace for so much of it, meanwhile the peninsula was always the one suffering from famines and having to group up their own men to fight wars in europe.

Another thing is how the independence is to be felt regionally and globally. Regionally, the common hispanic market that was running at the time since 1778 would be blacked out off a pretty big commercial ally. You may say, well England wanted them to be independent alongside the nations of south america for commerce. But the reality is that it’s really not very much commerce and more like being subjected to huge debts (as it happened in south america thanks to the masonry-affiliated libertadores), having their own mines and lands being sold off to the british and later other foreign powers, and in the case of Peru where Jose de San Martin literally stole tons and tons of gold to give to the british. To what extent is allying to the british a good idea for Mexico in any capacity? But realistically speaking, if the criollos do succeed, I think it would depend highly on who’s in charge to see if they would also fall victim to this informal british empire. But without any other links other than themselves how could they keep going for long?

because for example, another economic hit Mexico will face soon after independence is that its gonna close the Manila galleon trade. And this won’t just hurt the philippines, Spain, and the still viceroyalties more down south during this time, it will hurt Mexico a lot too. The asian market they had will be completely gone and so it makes it easier for the foreign powers at the time to make mince meat out of mexico at its behest as it did already occur in OTL.

Not just this but the sort of companionship it had with the other viceroyalties. Did you know before the independence, when any sort of invasion or conflict would happen in the spanish new world, many generals from all around hispanic america would be brought same with troops sometimes? Did you know that there were very many viceroys of criollo or mestizo descent that sometimes originated from another or neighboring viceroyalty? By proclaiming independence, the criollo elite of said new republic is essentially closing down all of that in favor of their own wealth and interests and nothing more.

And this sort of weakening is what allows countries, like the US, France, or Britain, to do whatever with Mexico later down the line. So much for the liberty and the democracy honestly. I fail to see how such a rotten base as the criollos winning could create an actual prosperous Mexico later on that won’t end up getting hammered around by whoever foreign power is up to the task.
 
Restarting this thread to ask a question to @minifidel.

Was there any way Buenos Aires could be affected by New Spain forming a junta in 1808? Could the chain of events that led to the May Revolution happen sooner? Lastly, since from what I know Santiago de Liniers was seen with suspicion by local conservatives, is there a way he could become leader of an independent Argentina, less because he wants to and more because he has no choice but to side with the independists?
Oh absolutely, if New Spain forms a junta in 1808, that's going to reverberate across the continent, like the Quito Uprising in 1809 would IOTL. The big question is what the royalist response is, because if it's snuffed out quickly, its impact will be diluted; if it's still ongoing, then something like the Mutiny of Álzaga (the first real revolutionary conspiracy in Buenos Aires) might be more successful, and it aimed to install a Junta in Buenos Aires already.

Liniers wasn't seen with suspicion by local conservatives, rather the opposite: Liniers was likely their most popular figure, but he was both an avowed monarchist and a committed loyalist. For independence to be an option, there has to be a junta to proclaim it, and for a junta to proclaim it, Liniers has to be removed.

EDIT to add: the key conservative figure you need to look at and get onside - and indeed, it was his switching sides in 1810 that allowed the revolution to succeed when it did - is Cornelio Saavedra, leader of the Regiment of Patricians. It's the largest and best equipped militia in the city, and his regiment's intervention single-handedly saved Liniers in 1809.
 
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People from all sorts of other backgrounds were for the most part fine with the spanish even as far as economically, and its in the money and power were the criollos wanted to hog in all for themselves.
There were 3 power groups in a constant jockeying of position. The criollo elite. The Crown. The Church. The Church typically backed the Crown, but did not want to be controlled by it. The Church controlled the peasant class by keeping them undereducated and in fear of God (whose representative was the Church).

The Crown, since the time of the Bourbon Reforms, was looking to squeeze as much money out of Mexico as possible. It is incorrect to allege that Spain only sucked the viceroyalty dry during the French Revolution/Napoleon Era. Following the crushing defeat in the 7 Year War, Carlos III looked to rebuilt the Army and Navy. Funding for this was to be squeezed out of the colonies. Hence, the Bourbon Reforms. This meant pushing the Criollo elite aside. The Criollo wanted to continue serving in positions of power and benefit from the economy of New Spain. The Crown wanted the economy to benefit Spain.

There was tension between the Crown and the Church, as well. The Church was very, very powerful, and held a tremendous amount of wealth. The Crown had to tread very lightly versus the Church.

When Independence exploded upon New Spain, the Criollos sought to gain the upper hand. The Spanish Crown had to be expelled, and the Church held in check and/or reduced in power. The peasant class was held down by both, on both the hacienda Patron system, and the Church servitude system. The peasants were getting sick of this, and Hidalgo tried harnessing this.

Edit: plus, make no mistake, the Mexican Revolution Era was extremely destructive, both in gaining independence, and the chaotic years following.
 
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Could a scenario happen, when they accept the Bourbon kings and later personal union with Spain? Spain would accept in exchange of mexican help of defeating the south american rebels?
 
Oh absolutely, if New Spain forms a junta in 1808, that's going to reverberate across the continent, like the Quito Uprising in 1809 would IOTL. The big question is what the royalist response is, because if it's snuffed out quickly, its impact will be diluted; if it's still ongoing, then something like the Mutiny of Álzaga (the first real revolutionary conspiracy in Buenos Aires) might be more successful, and it aimed to install a Junta in Buenos Aires already.

Liniers wasn't seen with suspicion by local conservatives, rather the opposite: Liniers was likely their most popular figure, but he was both an avowed monarchist and a committed loyalist. For independence to be an option, there has to be a junta to proclaim it, and for a junta to proclaim it, Liniers has to be removed.

EDIT to add: the key conservative figure you need to look at and get onside - and indeed, it was his switching sides in 1810 that allowed the revolution to succeed when it did - is Cornelio Saavedra, leader of the Regiment of Patricians. It's the largest and best equipped militia in the city, and his regiment's intervention single-handedly saved Liniers in 1809.
Wait, wasn't the Álzaga mutiny suppressed by the guys eventually who led the May Revolution? Elío was an ally of his from what I read on Wikipedia, so I wonder how Platine independence could've developed if he succeeded.
 
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