Is being more energized all that it takes though? I doubt that "more energy" among rebels is going to trump Spain's added advantages from not fighting Mexico.
They'll be busy fighting France until at least 1812, so it may be.

EDIT: Also, their hold over at least some colonies might be impossible to rescue by the time Madrid finally gets its act together. For example, if the Argentines win something like the Battle of Huaqui as a result of a butterfly or another, there's a chance Spain's position in Peru could collapse over a decade earlier than OTL, the consequences of which will be felt everywhere.
 
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John Adams and Andrew Jackson were accused of monarchism. That does not mean that they set out to be kings.
The Mexican separatists did try to create an empire at first IOTL, and I suspect Iturrigaray would have a lot more legitimacy than Iturbide did.
 
And how far along are those same movements more than a dozen years earlier?
In 1811 there was an independence movement technically in San Salvador but got supressed by the colonial regime. Well that might be like better done instead of supressed. Maybe some coup or quick overthrow might be successful during that time period
 
Mexico will have no shortage of capable military leaders either (Allende, Morelos, Guerrero and so on, heck, maybe even Iturbide too).
What do you think the odds are on Mexico having a competent non-military leader? Is it doable? Or at least, transitioning to civillian for their second leader? Do you think the country would be better served with capable military men reporting to or carrying out the goals of a capable civillian-headed government?
 
What do you think the odds are on Mexico having a competent non-military leader? Is it doable? Or at least, transitioning to civillian for their second leader? Do you think the country would be better served with capable military men reporting to or carrying out the goals of a capable civillian-headed government?
We have Lucas Alaman, Santa Anna possibly if he doesn't go soldiering might be a good businessman or even tycoon, and Veracruz businessman Francisco Echeverria. Probably those 3 might handle Mexico's finances and economy good
 
What do you think the odds are on Mexico having a competent non-military leader? Is it doable?
I think so, especially if Mexico's "divorce" from Spain is mostly peaceful (save for a few royalist revolts here and there). Primo de Verdad could be a potential prime minister, for example.

Do you think the country would be better served with capable military men reporting to or carrying out the goals of a capable civillian-headed government?
Absolutely. No military should ever get involved in politics, and Latin American history in general is a perfect example of what happens when it does.
 
What about northern separatism from Mexico?
One of the members of the Mexico City Council was ringing warning bells about Americans moving into Texas. I think it was Melchor de Talamantes iirc, ITL he would most likely be working at heading that off. California was mostly an effect of the same process. A more stable Mexico would be able to better focus on the issues of the north.

This scenario is something I've been playing around with in my mind. It would make a very interesting timeline. I am not sure if they'd make itturigaray emperor, but it is possible. If anything at first New Spain would just be run by a supreme junta with Itturigaray at the head. Criollos wanted this cause they saw it as the first step in governing New Spain themselves as opposed to answering to a bunch of Spaniards who cared little for the colony's well being. So there will be struggle between the Peninsular elite and royalist Criollos against pro-autonomy Criollos. After a year or so I can see most Criollos favoring the new opportunities that an autonomous New Spain has to offer, and an attempt by Peninsulares to unseat Itturigaray. That conflict could lead to people like Morelos and Hidalgo to rise up in the name of the King in favor of Itturigaray and the Mexico City councilors. But it would be a much shorter conflict than the OTL war for independence. If the pro-autonomy side wins, they might be pushed closer to making a clean break. Even with better coinditions for Itturigaray, he is old. They'll want a new "regent" and maybe even a new supreme junta.

Iturbide was credited heavily by the people for independence at the time, which is part of the reason he had an overwhelming level of support for being crowned. Even when the political elite began turning on him, he still enjoyed immense levels of support from the common people. Mexican historiography has been very unkind to him (although he wasn't without some serious faults) and tends to ignore just how much of a cult following he had. Think Trump's MAGA crowd. The constituent congress feared a Jan 6 on steroids so they crowned him as a result of that. But since he most likely won't have such a large role in TTL's independence, that gets butterflied away. Without someone with that level of fame, Mexico will default to a republic barring any last minute European royals accepting the crown (which I find unlikely to happen but do enjoy reading a timeline on that).

This could happen by 1812, just in time for Spain to show up. Now OTL Pablo Morillo was despatched with his fleet in 1815 to Rio de la Plata to reconquer it, but he diverted to New Granada instead. ITL he could be sent to New Spain instead. There is a good chance he'd divert to New Granada, or he could go to new Spain with his 10k soldiers and his large fleet. There is also the issue of US/British recognition. The British recognizing Mexico is a hard one here. They did it in the 1820s cause the Napoleonic wars were over. But would they do that while trying to fight Napoleon in Spain and elsewhere? The US might be easier to get recognition from, but the US in 1808-1821 is um....useless aside from money and trade which is no small thing but if Morillo's fleet is parked on the Mexican Coast that could pose a problem, so recognition would have to come before 1815 and there's the war of 1812 that will keep the US occupied and unable to do anything.

If the supreme Junta gives way to a congress by 1810 Mexico has 2 years to establish a constitution, elect a president and congress and gain US recognition. If it succeeds on that forgoing anymore unity with Spain, it could probably seek recognition from Napoleon which would be troublesome cause of the British. It'll have to find a way to get both sides to see it as a neutral nation which could happen. By the time Spain is back and ready to attack, Mexico would have a some minor level of trade, and a much smaller economic problem than OTL Mexico. After that, I think holding of the Spanish is easily feasible. The problem Mexico would still face is the debate between federalists and centralists. This is basically what plagued Argentina so maybe its history could serve as a bit of a model for a timeline (in broad strokes). If Mexico starts off centralists, Yucatan, the northern territories and a few of the states like Zacatecas and Chihuahua might have an issue with it. If it starts federalist, you can expect the centralists to cause trouble with their military and church allies. I don't think Mexico is safe from internal conflict, although it would could easily see less conflict than OTL Mexico.

I don't think Santa Ana would be very prominent unless he gets lucky. A lot of the events that made Santa Ana famous by the late 1820s would be butterflied away. Since the Battle of San Jancito was the thing that won Texan independence (with Santa Ana's poor leadership and getting captured being the reason), I don't see a successful Texan revolution at least not until later in the 1840s with Santa Ana out of the picture. The French would probably still try to pull something like OTL Pastry War seeing as they did the same thing in Argentina. It would be hard for Mexico to be able to fight off the fleet the French sent, they sent a fairly large fleet to Veracruz. Mexico at best could fend off a land invasion, but would still face a blockade and probably still have to agree to pay up. Maybe not as much money in TTL.

An interesting concept would be Cuba. If TTL Mexico focuses on the Navy a bit more, it could at least be able to seriously threaten Cuba. OTL the UK was concerned about this prospect mainly because they feared Mexico would lose control of Cuba and the US or the French would take it. The French had similar concerns. The British tried to convince the Spanish to recognize Mexico's independence in exchange for Mexico abandoning its plans of invasion. The US was also interested in the matter. ITTL that might result in a more high profile conference that could have ramifications for the foreign policies of all those nations in the region.

Then there's the Central America question. Like mentioned, will Central America achieve independence earlier than OTL? Will Mexico send an army south to force out the Spanish? Does that mean an earlier annexation than OTL, and the repercussions? Since Mexico starts off as a "regency" and then goes into a Republic, would it hold on to Central America longer? Will its fate be part of the negotiations regarding Cuba? And if there's a failed Texan Revolution, American expansion will also look different which will also impact the political history of the US. And considering the role that that expansion played in sparking the Civil War, it won't be a minor change and this includes the US expanding west through Mexico. Just to throw something out there, what if this Mexico is able to encircle the US forces that land in Veracruz in TTL's Mexican-American war capturing the likes of Lee and Grant or even leading to their deaths?

There are so many interesting things to consider.
 
I don't think Santa Ana would be very prominent unless he gets lucky. A lot of the events that made Santa Ana famous by the late 1820s would be butterflied away. Since the Battle of San Jancito was the thing that won Texan independence (with Santa Ana's poor leadership and getting captured being the reason), I don't see a successful Texan revolution at least not until later in the 1840s with Santa Ana out of the picture. The French would probably still try to pull something like OTL Pastry War seeing as they did the same thing in Argentina. It would be hard for Mexico to be able to fight off the fleet the French sent, they sent a fairly large fleet to Veracruz. Mexico at best could fend off a land invasion, but would still face a blockade and probably still have to agree to pay up. Maybe not as much money in TTL.
Probably Santa Anna becomes likes some sort of like 'king of veracruz' controlling like veracruz under his tight grip to his benefit eitehr directly or indirectly but not weild like some sort of power like he did otl. I'm assuming he goes onto the merchant businessguy venture folk cause like war ends earlier before he goes to army. Santa Anna technically doestn have "poor" leadership he is more like compromise guy, meanwhile alot of the politics and everything are radicalized. As like coups and revolts were common
 
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I think centralism would be way to go, cause like not much change in the system, also better management etc. A strong centralist government can allocate funds reseiurces and etc focus etc to areas that needs most support esepecaily important ones. Meanwhile fedralism apparently iirc state governments dont wanna send the cash and etc to the central gov also some roughe warlord governor rebelling cause they can raise their own militia/army. Im not sure if thats in Mexico pre cenralist era or Centarl America after independence to Mexico, probably same
 
What does Mexico do with/about the presumably inherited ITTL claim to what became British Columbia and the U.S. Pacific Northwest under these circumstances?
 
What does Mexico do with/about the presumably inherited ITTL claim to what became British Columbia and the U.S. Pacific Northwest under these circumstances?
Idk probably is like sell it to the British. Or like drop it in exchange for cash. Cause like they didn't seem to care about there otl
 
First comment.

Well for What I can see there's an interesting debate about how México would be affected if becomes independent in 1808, well this is how I see it. First things first, if Viceroy Iturrigaray is not deposed, as it happen in OTL by the spanish traders of México City, the first consequence of importance will be that the Kingdom of New Spain will be the first of all hispanoamerica in fórming a National Congress because when the coup de'etat happen in 15 September 1808 the junta de México was already preparing for the creation of this congress, but they where debating about under what legal conditions could be created, with Jacobo de Villaurrutia being in charge of this comission, so yes, there's the big possibility that this same congress will declare México independence because among the most prominents members of the junta there was the idea of being independent from Spain already, some of those persons were Francisco Primo de Verdad, Juan Francisco Azcarate, El Marques de San Miguel de Aguayo and Fray Melchor de Talamantes, just to mention a couple of them (the last one maybe one of the most radicals) So if this happens the movement will have even more legitimacy than Hidalgo's or Morelos movements and it will be more popular among the population so technically that means no war of independence or at least shorter than OTL if generals like Félix María Calleja and company decides to revolt against the congress and fight for the King.
 
Second comment.

Now, in What moment will the congress declare indepence? We don't now for sure, but I been trying to imagine this situation so I think that this could happen around 1809 or 1810, so there's other thing that will change radically the future of this new nation forever, there will not be conflicts between "federalists" and "centralists" factions from the begining. The mainly reason why the first federal republic fail so badly was because of the way it was created in OTL, It was a lot of preassure in the constitutional congress in forming a federation "a la american" because provinces like Jalisco, Zacatecas and Yucatan were threatening with secession if México didn't adopt the same sistem that the U.S, but behind this situation were old Iturbidistas who were looking to take the power and privileges they had in the Empire era again, plus there was at least like 1000 ayuntamientos and everyone was looking for more autonomy since the Cadiz constitution were promulgated. But before 1812 there were no more than 50 ayuntamientos, and there will not be Iturbidistas so any other form of federation would be form, more likely to the project present in 1823 by José Cecilio del Valle that proposed a federation but without the autonomy of his different states, and more adapted to the mexican circumstances and that can be translated to the pacific creation of the Mexican state.
 
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The British and the Americans would both go along with this once border issues were resolved, which one presumes would be necessarily amicably. Mexico becomes a conservative, Catholic republic dominated by Iberians of local birth. If/when Spain gets freed of Bonapartism, it will have to accept the loss of Mexico as a fait accompli but has more resources to throw at reconquering South America.
Okay it's beyond the scope of this POD to combine POD's but now I'm imagining @DougM 's conception of a "Quebec Libre" that attains independence alongside the United States, and how it establishes a precedence for a semi-feudal conservative Catholic sister republic. See quotes from this post. Makes me wonder if being adjunct to the Quebecois would then provide a model for the Americans how to deal with the Mexican republic. And if further down the line the U.S. still gains a taste for Manifest Destiny and try to take bites out of both.
 
Third coment.

Just to end my Analysis I want to point out other great change to the OTL process of Indepence, México will be in a better economic possition due that is most likely that this congress will stop the sending of incredible giagantic amounts of money that in the long therm decapitalized the mexican economy in a period of 13 years in OTL. Actually is estimated than more of the 90% of all the money that financed the war against Napoleon in the Iberian Península was from the New Spain, that even the spanish general Pablo Morillo recognized that sending the expeditionary force that fight in Venezuela in 1815 was a big mistake because México was a more important point because of their money. And to finish with this, other possible change will be that México instead of Spain will be the one claiming sovereignty over the Lousiana territory and Oregon, because if we remember this big territory was considered Spanish under american occupation til the congress of Viena in 1815, that even Talamantes was in charge in 1808 in finding the límits of Texas and this territory, and if I remember well, even in OTL during the signing of the treaty of boundaries and commerce of 1832 between México and the U.S, Lucas Alaman, one of the greatest mexican politicians of the time, during the talks with the american representative suggested the Mississipi river as the boundary between the two nations, so this show us that even in OTL there was a real intention, at leats at the first years, of recovering that territory, now imagine this with a more richer México, technically more capable of defending this territories.
 
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Third coment.

Just to end my Analysis I want to point out other great change to the OTL process of Indepence, México will be in a better economic possition due that is most likely that this congress will stop the sending of incredible giagantic amounts of money that in the long therm decapitalized the mexican economy in a period of 13 years in OTL. Actually is estimated than more of the 90% of all the money that financed the war against Napoleon in the Iberian Península was from the New Spain, that even the spanish general Pablo Morillo recognized that sending the expeditionary force that fight in Venezuela in 1815 was a big mistake because México was a more important point because of their money. And to finish with this, other possible change will be that México instead of Spain will be the one claiming sovereignty over the Lousiana territory and Oregon, because if we remember this big territory was considered Spanish under american occupation til the congress of Viena in 1815, that even Talamantes was in charge in 1808 in finding the límits of Texas and this territory, and if I remember well, even in OTL during the signing of the treaty of boundaries and commerce of 1832 between México and the U.S, Lucas Alaman, one of the greatest mexican politicians of the time, during the talks with the american representative suggested the Mississipi river as the boundary between the two nations, so this show us that even in OTL there was a real intention, at leats at the first years, of recovering that territory, now imagine this with a more richer México, technically more capable of defending this territories.
A big thumbs up to your posts.

However, realistically, Louisiana is gone. In 1808, USA is in possession, and Mexico has to take it back. They aren't getting it through diplomacy. The only hope I see is if Mexico allies with Britain during the war of 1812. This would require Britain to have recognized Mexico as an independent nation, which will be tricky if Spain is still in contention. If Mexico has shut off funding, Spanish resistance may have collapsed. Or if still ongoing, there may be bad taste over Mexico having abandoned the mother country financially, and Britain having to pick up the slack. Hmmm, could this extra strain caused Britain to drop out, meaning Nap's Continental System wins? Bottom line, we can't depend on the rest of the Nap Wars to go as OTL. The original point here is that Mexico won't be able to get Louisiana back without help. Any dream of the border being the Mississippi River in 1832, OTL, is wishful thinking, devoid of reality. A stronger, stable Mexico will be able to push the border more favorably, but all of it is doubtful. In the immediate years post independence, Mexico will have too much on its plate to engage in a major war, and after that, USA is too firmly entrenched.

And having said that, I just remembered the USA annexing West Florida in 1810 or 11. This may not happen with Mexico seemingly stable. Would this Mexico claim sovereignty of the Floridas? Could they recognize them being too distant, and use them as bargaining chips in negotiations in the Louisiana border situation?

And in further stream of babbling, IF Mexican funding is what kept Spanish Ulcer bleeding, OTL, and in TTL Nap achieves victory, the rest of New Spain is now up for grabs, meaning Mexico might get Cuba and Puerto Rico and Central America. Too much of a wank to expect gains from the rest of Spanish South America.
 
Idk probably is like sell it to the British. Or like drop it in exchange for cash. Cause like they didn't seem to care about there otl
It isn't that Spain never cared about the region. It's that they were too over stretched around the globe to hold it, or to develop it. Mexico will have the same problem. Too much claimed territory and not enough resources to develop it. Not having resources drained off by mother Spain will help, but there's still a lot of territory to develop.

That doesn't mean they'll just sell it, though. Britain has already agreed to a border with Spain, and has lost interest in pushing south. Neither side will be the initiating party in negotiations. Mexico will still want it, even if they're doing nothing with it. Britain is happy with status quo.

USA will be the ones to upset the apple cart. They wanted it, and moved aggressively toward it as soon as they acquired Louisiana. Mexico will still be contending, unsuccessfully, the Louisiana Purchase, so they will not be looking to sell to USA. They will likely look to retain the Pacific Northwest simply out of pride. Depending on how the Louisiana Crisis goes, Mexico might relinquish ownership in negotiations.

But, Spain, and then Mexico will care about the region. It was part of New Spain. It will be part of Mexico. Since there is no Spanish presence, and the Anglos are putting boots on the ground, it might not be contested too hard, but it will be contested.
 

Basils

Banned
At that moment I just don't think a monarchy is likely.
Would be interesting if they pulled a semi Brazil. If they got a Spanish princess to marry into the royal family. Would possibly make Mexico a receiver of Spanish investments instead of war
 
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