In the absence of Islam, which religion becomes the primary competitor to Christianity?

Which religion?

  • Zoroastrianism

    Votes: 74 22.7%
  • Buddhism

    Votes: 114 35.0%
  • Manichaeism

    Votes: 49 15.0%
  • Hinduism

    Votes: 16 4.9%
  • Surviving/reformed/organized European paganism

    Votes: 9 2.8%
  • Tengrism

    Votes: 4 1.2%
  • Judaism

    Votes: 11 3.4%
  • Other religion that exists in our world

    Votes: 9 2.8%
  • Other religion that does NOT exist in our world

    Votes: 40 12.3%

  • Total voters
    326
even without Islam it still doesn't change the fact that the Mayors of the Palace had more power
This is highly debatable. The Mayors of the Palace under the Pepinid line, the ancestral lords of Aachen, were not as assured of their position until the prestige garnered in the victory at Tours and the subsequent following 'victories' in the Aquitaine. It ingratiated the Peppinid line to the Christian elites of the south and west, that would consolidate between this lineage and assist them in the removal of the Merovingian house. If we assume the Peppinids do not gain some massive propaganda victory over the expansionist and overextended Umayyad at Tours, the Mayors of the Palace are instead known for overseeing losses in the Elbe River Valley which saw the expansion of Slavic tribes against the vassals of the Franks in the Thuringian, Saxon and Bavarian lords.

Mayors of the Palace had more power then the Merovingian dynasty by this point and wanted to secure it.
This is not really true. There are different forms of power in governance and diplomacy and the Peppinids only possessed military might and none else. In a Frankish society that believed strongly in magic, caste, customs and in the potentially of curses, the Merovingians were ascendant. Despite the obfuscations of Einhard and his compatriot Hildwin, the picture that can be gleaned by taking a more critical understanding of the situation, was that the Merovingians were in essence deified kings who focused upon ritualism and matters of military affairs that required their appearance. Their position as a figurehead though was more akin to ideologies deriving from the Iron Age of China, namely the notion of a deified do-nothing monarch who through simply his aura, controls his subjects into correct action. This goes in accordance with the Merovingian foundation mythos given by Gregory of Tours and repeated by others, that the Merovingians were derived from a divine bull and as such, were children of gods, with special powers over other humans exemplified by their ritualized long flowing hair and their preeminent position as sacred entities in the Frankish realm.

When Pepin III requested the advice of Pope Zachary, he seems genuinely disturbed and horrified at the idea of deposing Childeric/Hilderic III and only with affirmation of the Pope, is willing to depose the Great King of all the Franks. This is important in that the mystical implication of curses alone, was enough to hold Pepin III in place.

My argument, is that without Zachary and his predecessors having experienced the implosion of relations between Byzantium and the Holy See, there would have been no Pope who was willing or cared enough to rule on this matter. The Papacy would not be seeking to discover patrons north of the Alps nor would they need such, as the full breach in Byzanto-Papal relations began largely due to and caused by the Arab expansion. Without Papal certainty and confidence in their decision to support the Mayors of the Palace (which they refused to do until the battle of Tours and the end of cordial relations with Constantinople), there would be no words of support from Pope Zachary and thus Pepin III would succumb to his fear and like his predecessors, of which there were 34 prior to him, would be outmaneuvered by the Merovingians in court.

In a counter account to the Einhard depiction, Gregory VII even completely removes Pepin III from the equation of the deposition of Hilderic III. Gregory VII said that, Pope Zachary deposed Hilderic III for not being fit for the position of Christian king. The meaning we can be sure, that the Christian king was one who perpetuated Christianity in their realm as Pepin III and Charles I did, which the Merovingians never did. While it should be taken with a grain of salt, Gregory VII and the accounts of clergy in the High Middle Ages display that a counter narrative to Einhard's romantic interpretation existed, where the coup of Hilderic III was more of a collaboration between the clerical Christian elites and the Mayors of the Palace who only consolidated their power after Tours and after their strengthening of Church ties.

Also, I don't believe that the tolerance from during the Merovingian dynasty would be able to last forever as the Saxons and Frisia, being pagan and actively resisting the Franks, would firmly put the Carolingians in the Christian camp
The Saxons were technically still vassals or tributaries of the Merovingians, hence the Merovingians attempting to protect them against easterly pushing Slavic tribes and other folk. The Frisians were likely also tributaries of the Merovingians and there seems to have not been extreme animosity between any of these groups until Pepin III, evident by the Merovingian dynasts having no problem regularly intermarrying with pagan Frisians, Saxons, Angles, etc... Also, I did not only mean them, according to Christian sources, up until the rise of Charles I and his predecessor Pepin III, a substantial part of the Frankish population in the Rhineland and Eastern France remained Pagan and worshippers of various things ascribed them, usually Mercury or something of this nature. Considering the ritual practices of the Merovingians mentioned by Einhard and Gregory of Tours, this is only strengthened in that the Merovingians were enacting ceremonies in mimicry of pre-Christian Frankish deities, especially the deity for whom Tacitus calls Nerthus, supposedly worshipped by peoples inhabiting the area that the Franks resided in. It is also telling that of all of the major Germanic royal lineages, the Merovingians were the only ones to not humanize a prior claimed divine lineage, but to maintain and assert into the Christian era, lineage through divine forebears in the form of the 'divine bull' mentioned earlier.

Also, I don't understand what a 12th century Bishop has to do with the Frankish kingdoms not converting there conquered peoples. Later franks would absolutely convert conquered peoples for the same reason Charlemagne, Otto, and other German kings of the age did force conversion to the locals to bring them closer to the Frankish state and help stop them from rebelling.
There simply was not as great an interest in this sort of activity from what I understand. The Merovingians frequently were marrying into Pagan houses, sending daughters and sons about as suitors for pagans whilst also claiming to be protectors of the saints and holy relics, etc etc etc... My view is that the Merovingian house was not so stringent as they are made to be in their religion and had a more pluralistic mentality as far as religion were concerned. This was part of the reason the newer clergy of the 8th century came to despise them and seek to remediate the situation in the country, primarily emboldened from the decline of Byzantine power and the rising sense of Papal initiative built from the Arab expansion shocking Christendom into new and more militant stately forms.

The reason that I bring Bernard of Clairvaux up is that his lineage and formula of society is what did and would impose Christianity upon the populations to the east, namely through bloody conquest and a more thorough molding of the militaristic instincts of the Franks with that of Christian necessity to reform the world, engendered by the Reform Papacy. Much of this was not as enmeshed until after the rise of Islam and the Arab expansion. Christianity would continue to spread, but the forms and styles it would take would be far, far different and perhaps polytheistic in this atl imo.
 
Turks will do what they did historically and move into Ukraine and Iran, where they will probably suppress the native faith and set up a local Buddhist powerbase. If the Ukrainian half's conquests go particularly well, they resist Christianization for a long, long time, which might actually help many pagan groups in that area also resist Christian expansion. If the steppe nomads of Ukraine are Buddhist, Buddhism is a big contender for converting Russia, and it will have longer to do it than Christianity or Islam did by the time of Vladimir.
While I do agree let's do remember this a world were the byzantine empire is stronger so the slavs already living in the empire would most likely convert sooner and areas that took longer migth convert sooner example instead of charlemagne destroying the avar khaganate and making the avar remeant christian
I can see in this timeline the Byzantines doing that and converting the avar remeant. So the area of panonia migth become christian a lot sooner combined with ot preaching to the slavs like cyril did with morovia area could mean it could spread faster in these parts of europe .

As for the magyars I have commented it's quite unlikely they be buddhist since the main theory of their migrations doesn't put them any were close to central asia unless the khazar become buddhist.
 
Without Islam or any other alt-Abrahamic big religion, Christianity would remain unchallenged in Europe, North Africa and the Levant, and it is likely that would replace Zoroastrianism in Persia (by 650 Miaphysite Christianism was as widespread there as Zoroastrianism, at least in the wealthier western part of the Sasanian Empire) in the medium term. East of the Iranian Plateau, Buddhism could be blatantly dominant though.

However, it is likely that Christianity would be even more fragmented than IOTL. The lack of a relevant common enemy like the Muslims (meaning no Crusades etc.) would boost the already existing divisions and the authority of the Pope and the Patriarchs would likely be more easily undermined, at least outside the Byzantine dominions.

Miaphysite Christianism would be more relevant than IOTL for sure. It is likely that Egypt would split sooner than later from Byzantium and create its own 'Miaphysite Empire' which might dominate the Nile valley, part of the Levant and maybe Arabia too. This might be seen as the 'common enemy' for Nicene Christianity at some point and play a weaker proxy role of Islam ITTL, but I doubt it would be as succesful in getting other Christians together against them to the point of triggering alt-Crusades or something.
 
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My point was that the rise of Islam had an effect that changed Papal policy in Europe and likewise alongside it, led to an increased power of the Mayors of the Palace as agents of a new form of religious reform in Christianity. The Merovingians prior to the rise of Pepin III, were a syncretic monarchy with a plurality of Christianity and different types of polytheism which all paid loyalty to the Merovingian dynasty. The downfall of this dynasty led to a more dogmatic and universal form of Christendom that confirmed the remainder of the continental Germanic peoples into Latin Christendom. Without Islam, this situation may not occur and Christendom does not universalize amongst the peoples in the region, keeping thus, the rural polytheist melange remaining. This then changes the ways in which Christianity is disseminated into Scandinavia and the east.
I think it's important to compare early Christianity with Buddhism for a comparison, here. Both Buddhism and early Christianity expanded through syncretism with local polytheisms. See e.g. Brigid the Irish deity transitioning to Saint Brigid, or the Christian adoption of European polytheistic holidays (Saturnalia becoming Christmas, midsummer Germanic festival traditions being absorbed into St. John's Day ), sacred sites (the Pantheon in Rome, Donar's Oak being used to build a church to St. Peter). Pope Gregory in 601 wrote a letter to Miletus about doing exactly that in Anglo-Saxon lands:

Tell Augustine that he should be no means destroy the temples of the gods but rather the idols within those temples. Let him, after he has purified them with holy water, place altars and relics of the saints in them. For, if those temples are well built, they should be converted from the worship of demons to the service of the true God. Thus, seeing that their places of worship are not destroyed, the people will banish error from their hearts and come to places familiar and dear to them in acknowledgement and worship of the true God.

Further, since it has been their custom to slaughter oxen in sacrifice, they should receive some solemnity in exchange. Let them therefore, on the day of the dedication of their churches, or on the feast of the martyrs whose relics are preserved in them, build themselves huts around their one-time temples and celebrate the occasion with religious feasting. They will sacrifice and eat the animals not any more as an offering to the devil, but for the glory of God to whom, as the giver of all things, they will give thanks for having been satiated. Thus, if they are not deprived of all exterior joys, they will more easily taste the interior ones. For surely it is impossible to efface all at once everything from their strong minds, just as, when one wishes to reach the top of a mountain, he must climb by stages and step by step, not by leaps and bounds.

— Bede, Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum (1.30)

Buddhism expanded through Asia following exactly the same process. I don't think there is a good reason to assume that some form of Christianity wouldn't continue to expand across Europe and Africa in exactly the same way.

From what i understand, having done some research on Arabia, the pagan goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat were becoming increasing overly revered in Arabia, and soon enough they were starting to encompass all the domains of the other minor gods. It seems that much like Judaism, Arabian paganism was dropping the other gods in favor of these three deities, and Muhammad himself is said to have credited the strength of this trinity during the conquests of Arabia. Should Muhammad not arise, then a unified Arabic paganism centered around Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat would probably arise, and dominate Arabia, perhaps barring Judaistic Yemen.

This would likely be syncretized with Christianity in some way, I think. If the Romans could associate IIRC al-Uzza with Aphrodite, the Christians could relate this Arabic triad to Christianity and absorb it like they did with Brigid.
 
From what i understand, having done some research on Arabia, the pagan goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat were becoming increasing overly revered in Arabia, and soon enough they were starting to encompass all the domains of the other minor gods. It seems that much like Judaism, Arabian paganism was dropping the other gods in favor of these three deities, and Muhammad himself is said to have credited the strength of this trinity during the conquests of Arabia. Should Muhammad not arise, then a unified Arabic paganism centered around Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat would probably arise, and dominate Arabia, perhaps barring Judaistic Yemen. With the population boom in Arabia, the people would eventually try to expand out of the interior, and we could have an Arabic pagan Iraq and Syria, and even Egypt, if they are lucky. There have also been rumors that 'Allah' as a god did exist in arabic paganism, however in a much diverse sense. So really while Islam may not explode and become a thing, other religions coming from Arabia may explode alongside the arabic population boom and conquer a good amount of territory, especially after the Rhoman-Iranic exhaustion.
Paganism was on its way out. Christianity was the majority Religion everywhere except Yemen and the Hejaz.
 
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I don't think Hinduism can really compete with Christianity on a world scale because it doesn't really seem to be the kind of religion that is aggressively spread from its home subcontinent. From my understanding of it, Hinduism was more of an "ethnic religion" like Judaism, not really big on exporting it to a degree.
Hinduism did spread to south east Asia so you can't count it out either. Without Islam, its rather likely that it remains within the region, particularly in what is now Indonesia, though it was around in Vietnam and Cambodia. Of course in these regions, Buddhism and Hinduism competed and cooperated together. But I expect in a world without Islam this dynamic would continue.

Buddhism more broadly I can see being the larger religion particularly as it had influence among the silk road and central Asian nomads.
 
No the gulf was not it was pagan at the time ( this is why I said oman ) yemen had its comunties like najran
This is incorrect Eastern Arabia was christian here are my sources.

Houtsma, Martijn Theodoor, ed. (1993), E.J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936, Volume
Smart, J. R. (1996), Tradition and Modernity in Arabic Language and Literature, Psychology Press, ISBN 978-0-7007-0411-8
Cameron, Averil (2002), The Mediterranean World in Late Antiquity, Routledge
 
I would say, my vision for the situation in this kind of TL around 1.000 AD would be:

- Zoroastrianism would have probably receded to remote areas of the Iranian plateau, while the rest of Persia and Mesopotamia have embraced Miaphysite Christianism.
- Arabia would be also overwhelmingly Miaphysite Christian.
- Buddhism is quite dominant east of Iran, with areas in Central Asia mixed with Tengrism, as well as in Northern India with Hinduism. Malaysia and Indonesia probably will develop also a mixture of Buddhism and Hinduism.
- The Euro-Mediterranean region will be overwhelmingly Christian, even if evangelization of the North and the Baltic might be slower. However I see more fragmentation, with several churches challenging Rome authority. Miaphysites would dominate Libya, the valley of the Nile, Syria, Arabia and Mesopotamia/West Persia. A successor church of Donatism might take over in Northwestern Africa and maybe Spain. The likely absence of a Carolingian/HRE might detach the German churches from Rome earlier and maybe the British Isles would develop their own church too.
 
A successor church of Donatism might take over in Northwestern Africa and maybe Spain. The likely absence of a Carolingian/HRE might detach the German churches from Rome earlier and maybe the British Isles would develop their own church too.
I think your making the mistake of confusing Liturgical Rites with completely separate churches. Separate rites being give autonomy within their regions is far more likely than a completely separate branches of Christianity springing up out of nowhere.
 
I think your making the mistake of confusing Liturgical Rites with completely separate churches. Separate rites being give autonomy within their regions is far more likely than a completely separate branches of Christianity springing up out of nowhere.
But this sometimes is just a first step: the western and eastern Nicene churches started their separation just by recognizing different rites, but it eventually ended in the schism of 1054.
 
This is incorrect Eastern Arabia was christian here are my sources.

Houtsma, Martijn Theodoor, ed. (1993), E.J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936, Volume
Smart, J. R. (1996), Tradition and Modernity in Arabic Language and Literature, Psychology Press, ISBN 978-0-7007-0411-8
Cameron, Averil (2002), The Mediterranean World in Late Antiquity, Routledge
Of you mean the whole of the east including the lands of the lakmids sure but Iam talking about oman area was not
Oman was pagan , but syncreticied everything it came in contact with. Haasa, as well, was a bastion for pagan Arab beliefs and also harboring some Christian populations. The area corresponding to UAE or Manjan/Sharjah was again a strong point for Arab paganism.

Paul Yule, Cross-roads – Early and Late Iron Age South-eastern Arabia, Abhandlungen Deutsche Orient-Gesellschaft
Says about the period before islamic arrival
And the Oxford Handbook of Islamic Archaeology also does not agree with the notion of christians been dominate here .

at least from what we do know since the
The Journal of Oman Studies says we done know much about the the pre Islamic worship in oman.
 
Of you mean the whole of the east including the lands of the lakmids sure but Iam talking about oman area was not
Oman was pagan , but syncreticied everything it came in contact with. Haasa, as well, was a bastion for pagan Arab beliefs and also harboring some Christian populations. The area corresponding to UAE or Manjan/Sharjah was again a strong point for Arab paganism.

Paul Yule, Cross-roads – Early and Late Iron Age South-eastern Arabia, Abhandlungen Deutsche Orient-Gesellschaft
Says about the period before islamic arrival
And the Oxford Handbook of Islamic Archaeology also does not agree with the notion of christians been dominate here .

at least from what we do know since the
The Journal of Oman Studies says we done know much about the the pre Islamic worship in oman.
Sorry for the misunderstanding when I hear the Persian gulf I think of the United Arab emirates and the Saudi East cost.
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding when I hear the Persian gulf I think of the United Arab emirates and the Saudi East cost.
Well the UAE and oman were pagan the north of it the saudi east coast i can't say but based on your sources and the fact the lakmids were there i do see it possible that the cities next to the coast had sizable chirstian population.
 
Well the UAE and oman were pagan the north of it the saudi east coast i can't say but based on your sources and the fact the lakmids were there i do see it possible that the cities next to the coast had sizable chirstian population.
Some of my sources say the educated among the Christian knew syraic.
 
Paganism was on its way out. Christianity was the majority Religion everywhere except Yemen and the Hejaz.
This seems incorrect to me just on account of logic. How likely is it that the Hejaz, which was the heart of the main trade route from Ethiopia and the Byzantine Levant, remain pagan while the Bedouins in the deep desert have been exposed to and adopted Christianity?

Also I can't really remember where, but I heard that part of what set Wahhab on his "pure monotheism" obsession was the fact that pagan superstitions about rocks and stars clung on in the Nejd until his time. As far as I know it was just the Banu Hanifa who were Christians in the Nejd in the time of Muhammad.
 
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