In the absence of Islam, which religion becomes the primary competitor to Christianity?

Which religion?

  • Zoroastrianism

    Votes: 65 23.5%
  • Buddhism

    Votes: 94 33.9%
  • Manichaeism

    Votes: 36 13.0%
  • Hinduism

    Votes: 13 4.7%
  • Surviving/reformed/organized European paganism

    Votes: 9 3.2%
  • Tengrism

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Judaism

    Votes: 10 3.6%
  • Other religion that exists in our world

    Votes: 9 3.2%
  • Other religion that does NOT exist in our world

    Votes: 37 13.4%

  • Total voters
    277
This seems incorrect to me just on account of logic. How likely is it that the Hejaz, which was the heart of the main trade route from Ethiopia and the Byzantine Levant, remain pagan while the Bedouins in the deep desert have been exposed to and adopted Christianity?

Also I can't really remember where, but I heard that part of what set Wahhab on his "pure monotheism" obsession was the fact that pagan superstitions about rocks and stars clung on in the Nejd until his time. As far as I know it was just the Banu Hanifa who were Christians in the Nejd in the time of Muhammad.
Right and arguably, Judaism had a greater presence in Arabia than Christianity outside of the northern fringes. Islamic accounts even mention how Christian priests and individuals had difficulty dealing with pagan tribal confederates and villagers, the implication that there needed to be a true and correct religion of Islam to enforce monotheism, rather than the insular Judaism and the weak atomized Christianity, etc...
 
This seems incorrect to me just on account of logic. How likely is it that the Hejaz, which was the heart of the main trade route from Ethiopia and the Byzantine Levant, remain pagan while the Bedouins in the deep desert have been exposed to and adopted Christianity?

Also I can't really remember where, but I heard that part of what set Wahhab on his "pure monotheism" obsession was the fact that pagan superstitions about rocks and stars clung on in the Nejd until his time. As far as I know it was just the Banu Hanifa who were Christians in the Nejd in the time of Muhammad.
All the sources I could find was Christianity was more prevent in the North and East.
 
If European (Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, and Finnic) paganism survives, it could compete with Christianity in Southern Europe, creating a North-South divide in Europe.
 
If European (Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Slavic, and Finnic) paganism survives, it could compete with Christianity in Southern Europe, creating a North-South divide in Europe.
Well ireland had converted by 600 ad so has england baltics and slavic paganism could survive tho ..slavic eh well with a more powerful byzantine empire and the slavs living or been close it , the chances don't see high
 
There could be significant differences to how Christianity develops without Islam. At this point in the north of Europe the nobility have largely converted to get the myriad benefits of an association with the Church but the common folk are still largely pagan or pseudo-pagans. We will probably never know the extent of it because of how poorly represented the lower classes are in history but pagan gods and goddesses were likely venerated in Germanic and Celtic lands for a long time after they had nominally converted. Without the pressure from the Muslim tide it's perfectly believable that these areas never lose their syncretic folk traditions because the Church has it's focus on the East. In a way Christianity was strengthened and unified by having Islam to oppose it.

Christianity's biggest enemy in a No-Islam world is likely Paganism, not in the form of organized religions and clergies opposing it, but simply in the fact that those beliefs lead to a slew of schismatics and disruptors advocating for their ancient philosophies and cultural ideals (fertility rites, concubinage, nature worship etc.) from within Christianity. This is a different kind of pressure and might break the Church apart beyond recognition.

Also yeah, Buddhism.
 
Right and arguably, Judaism had a greater presence in Arabia than Christianity outside of the northern fringes. Islamic accounts even mention how Christian priests and individuals had difficulty dealing with pagan tribal confederates and villagers, the implication that there needed to be a true and correct religion of Islam to enforce monotheism, rather than the insular Judaism and the weak atomized Christianity, etc...
How was Judaism engaged in pre-Islamic Arabia? Did they have synagogues and the like? In tribes did they actually have places of worship or was it more "folk judaism"?
 
How was Judaism engaged in pre-Islamic Arabia? Did they have synagogues and the like? In tribes did they actually have places of worship or was it more "folk judaism"?
There were centers of worship and the like, but in many Bedouin Jewish communities and groups, the religion was likely a rural folkway and thus not centralized and attached to centers for worship.
 
I wonder if in a world without Islam if the Church of the East or another sect of Nestorian Christianity might be able to further centralize it's organization and begin expanding. It was pretty successful in otl with churches as far afield as Mongolia and Northern China. Without a rival they might be able to become the majority religion in Persia and use that as a hub for further expansion with even better funded and missionaries and a cohesive plan of conversion. I imagine steppe tribes and kingdoms would be the first priority and maybe they come to the religion in a similar way the Germanic and Celtic tribes did in Britain and Germany. Part warfare, part economic pressure, and trade. We might even see Nestorian Churches in modern day Japan, Indonesia, and Thailand. Rome would still consider this group heretic forming a fierce sometimes violent rivalry.
 
But this sometimes is just a first step: the western and eastern Nicene churches started their separation just by recognizing different rites, but it eventually ended in the schism of 1054.
Were that the reason, then the Slavonic churches would have schismed from the Byzantine rite churches by now. Or the Maronite churches with the Latin Catholic church. There were varying rites in multiple regions, the Celts and Anglo-saxons had their own rites as did the Franks with the gallic rite, they disappeared as the Papacy slowly expanded it’s power over Western Europe and enforced the Latin rite uniformly.
The Church schismed over the doctrine of the Papacy and it’s uniform solo innovations, it had nothing to do with what language and cultural associations different regions incorporated into their liturgy.
 
Buddhism would be the most "interesting" option. It could spread through Central Asia and Central Europe and into the rest of Europe. Interestingly one of the signs of the true Buddha is that "his penis is sheathed" as opposed to Islam, which adopted the Jewish practice of circumcision.
 
From what i understand, having done some research on Arabia, the pagan goddesses Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat were becoming increasing overly revered in Arabia, and soon enough they were starting to encompass all the domains of the other minor gods. It seems that much like Judaism, Arabian paganism was dropping the other gods in favor of these three deities, and Muhammad himself is said to have credited the strength of this trinity during the conquests of Arabia. Should Muhammad not arise, then a unified Arabic paganism centered around Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat would probably arise, and dominate Arabia, perhaps barring Judaistic Yemen. With the population boom in Arabia, the people would eventually try to expand out of the interior, and we could have an Arabic pagan Iraq and Syria, and even Egypt, if they are lucky. There have also been rumors that 'Allah' as a god did exist in arabic paganism, however in a much diverse sense. So really while Islam may not explode and become a thing, other religions coming from Arabia may explode alongside the arabic population boom and conquer a good amount of territory, especially after the Rhoman-Iranic exhaustion.
Allah is certainly a divine name known to pre-Islamic Arabia (I mean, Muhammad's father was called 'Abd-Allah and nobody ever felt anything anachronistic about that) which is very unsurprising given that the word simply means "The God". There is increasingly good evidence in recently found inscriptions that Late Antique pre-Islamic Arabia was increasingly veering toward monotheism, with a growing Arabophone Christian presence, and of course we know there was a significant Jewish presence as well. In Himyar, it looks like there were monotheists who recognised One God (called Rahman-an in Late Sabaean) without specifically identifying as either Jews or Christians. Evidence for this community and its possible, even more elusive equivalents in other parts of Arabia is fragmentary and open to interpretation, but the general tune is that the idea of monotheism was pretty widespread in the region before Islam (albeit likely not universal), while doctrinal and political disputes between Jewish and Christian sects and currents probably felt quite alien. This does a lot to help understanding the Prohpet's message in its context and explain its success historically. It is also true that a lot of Arabian deities disappear from the epigraphic record quite a long a time before Islam, suggesting either spread of monotheistic tradition, consolidation of the 'pagan' pantheon as you point out, or more likely a bit of both.
 
Paganism was on its way out. Christianity was the majority Religion everywhere except Yemen and the Hejaz.
No.
This is incorrect Eastern Arabia was christian here are my sources.

Houtsma, Martijn Theodoor, ed. (1993), E.J. Brill's First Encyclopaedia of Islam, 1913-1936, Volume
Smart, J. R. (1996), Tradition and Modernity in Arabic Language and Literature, Psychology Press, ISBN 978-0-7007-0411-8
Cameron, Averil (2002), The Mediterranean World in Late Antiquity, Routledge
Considering the links to wikipedia, i am pretty sure you just linked the references in wikipedia.
Nonetheless Tradition and Modernity in Arabic Language and Literature does not deal with religion by large and makes no specific comment towards it, and is not even a part of the main point of the book
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1616157686556.png

As you can see it deals with the literature, and growth and development of Arabic as a whole. It does write a lot about the Greek, Latin, Syriac and Aramaic influence in Arabian and early Arabic languages, however mentions little of religiosity.

The Mediterranean World in the Late Antiquity deals solely with the Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire.
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Also about assertions about paganism going out......this is a popular trope not evidenced.

From Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam chapter 6,

1616158992714.png
 
No.

Considering the links to wikipedia, i am pretty sure you just linked the references in wikipedia.
Nonetheless Tradition and Modernity in Arabic Language and Literature does not deal with religion by large and makes no specific comment towards it, and is not even a part of the main point of the book
View attachment 634419
View attachment 634420
As you can see it deals with the literature, and growth and development of Arabic as a whole. It does write a lot about the Greek, Latin, Syriac and Aramaic influence in Arabian and early Arabic languages, however mentions little of religiosity.

The Mediterranean World in the Late Antiquity deals solely with the Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire.
View attachment 634421

Also about assertions about paganism going out......this is a popular trope not evidenced.

From Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam chapter 6,

View attachment 634426
That is only on source out of many. And am skeptical of that paragraph I have found many sources describing christian community's in Eastern and Northern. Some even existed in Narjan where they sent a delegation of people including a bishop to the Muslims. This community seemed to important enough for the Jewish kings of Yemen to start prosecuting them to the point King Kaleb of Ethiopia invaded the country.
 
That is only on source out of many. And am skeptical of that paragraph I have found many sources describing christian community's in Eastern and Northern. Some even existed in Narjan where they sent a delegation of people including a bishop to the Muslims. This community seemed to important enough for the Jewish kings of Yemen to start prosecuting them to the point King Kaleb of Ethiopia invaded the country.
King Kaleb invaded Arabia Felix.........which is Yemen.......which is said to have been excluded from the paragraph in its meaning.
Anyways, the Book of Himyars mentions only Najran as a significant christian community in Yemen during this time, with majority of the population remaining Jewish majority until the Islamic Conquest of Yemen.
The Book of Idols and Jews and Arabs in Pre-Islamic Arabia by Hisham Ibn Ali Khalbi and Michael Lecker also show ample historiography of religion in pre-islamic arabia. Like @John7755 يوحنا said, judaism was much stronger than christianity in arabia. Other than small pockets, or city states, christianity remained small and isolated and nowehere near even a plurality of the population.
 
King Kaleb invaded Arabia Felix.........which is Yemen.......which is said to have been excluded from the paragraph in its meaning.
Anyways, the Book of Himyars mentions only Najran as a significant christian community in Yemen during this time, with majority of the population remaining Jewish majority until the Islamic Conquest of Yemen.
The Book of Idols and Jews and Arabs in Pre-Islamic Arabia by Hisham Ibn Ali Khalbi and Michael Lecker also show ample historiography of religion in pre-islamic arabia. Like @John7755 يوحنا said, judaism was much stronger than christianity in arabia. Other than small pockets, or city states, christianity remained small and isolated and nowehere near even a plurality of the population.
Why should we assume Arabia would stay pagan when almost very other pagan faith went extinct?
 
Well this means no conquest of Iberia so Pelagius would not found the Kingdom of Asturias so most of european monarchs will not exist
 
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Why should we assume Arabia would stay pagan when almost very other pagan faith went extinct?
i am assuming you aren't looking at Africasia when you say pagan faiths didn't survive. Hinduism, African Animism, Asian Animism, Shintoism, Vajrayana Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Chinese Traditional Religion, Ethnic Religions......essentially 30% of the world population.
 
i am assuming you aren't looking at Africasia when you say pagan faiths didn't survive. Hinduism, African Animism, Asian Animism, Shintoism, Vajrayana Buddhism, Mahayana Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Chinese Traditional Religion, Ethnic Religions......essentially 30% of the world population.
Pretty much all of Europe converted the Middle east. African Animism has almost been completely wiped out by Islam and Christianity. And I would not call Buddhism or Hinduism pagan. Along with Confucianism and Taoism. In China and Japan they had had strong states that could stamp out such things. Even then it was a challange.
 
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