In the absence of Islam, which religion becomes the primary competitor to Christianity?

Which religion?

  • Zoroastrianism

    Votes: 65 23.5%
  • Buddhism

    Votes: 94 33.9%
  • Manichaeism

    Votes: 36 13.0%
  • Hinduism

    Votes: 13 4.7%
  • Surviving/reformed/organized European paganism

    Votes: 9 3.2%
  • Tengrism

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • Judaism

    Votes: 10 3.6%
  • Other religion that exists in our world

    Votes: 9 3.2%
  • Other religion that does NOT exist in our world

    Votes: 37 13.4%

  • Total voters
    277
The only way I see christianity wining out in yemen it has to be for aksum ( since it's stronger with out islam) and climate change works both ways to creating an empire that it forces them to invest more in a navy re conquering the place and with the persians busy ...well dealing with post khosrow the only obstacle would be the locals .
Indeed. They should have also been tolerant of the Jewish population as well. The Jews of Yemen were so persecuted and attacked that they allied with the polytheists and hadramaut Arabs to throw the aksumites out.
Why are we using Christianity has a baseline here?
Because it distinguishes how Christianity would persecute their conversions and religious beliefs regarding another faith. Christian definition of pagan defined the crusades, and the forceful conversions of the Saxon Wars and the Northern Crusades and the Conquest of Lithuania
Modern scholar hows the Quran borrows heavily from the Talmud and Christians folks tales existing at the time. The quran borrowed they Syriac legend of Alexander and many popular eschatological prophecies regarding A Roman Victory over Persia that were in circulation at the tame. The influence was stronger than you think.
And what of it? Hinduism has strong Iranian and Central Asian influence. Polytheistic and monotheistic Buddhism has strong Chinese and Indochinese influence. Who says Christianity won't influence the polytheistic Arabs? The consolidation of the Arab pantheon shows that it did. Influence =/= conversion to the religion.
 
None of the religions mentioned proselytize like Christianity or Islam, much less as aggressively as them.
I don't mean to single you out, but I have seen several comments in this vein, and I would like to reemphasize a sentence from my original post...

Said religion does not have to garner around as many adherents as Islam does in our world - merely achieving a much more distant second place to Christianity would suffice.
 
Modern scholar hows the Quran borrows heavily from the Talmud and Christians folks tales existing at the time. The quran borrowed they Syriac legend of Alexander and many popular eschatological prophecies regarding A Roman Victory over Persia that were in circulation at the tame. The influence was stronger than you think.
Of course, Muhammad himself traded with Byzantine Syria and was well versed (honestly really shockingly well versed for some random trader, some of those stories would be pretty esoteric even in the 6th century) in Christian/Jewish theology. That doesn't really state anything about how familiar his fellow Arabs were with Christianity.

The presence of these stories in the Quran furthers the idea that the Arabs as a whole were not very familiar with Christianity, considering none of the Prophet's contemporaries tried to accuse him of plagiarism.
 
Having to Add, Buddhism was once, perhaps the largest religion in the world, Most of Asia was either Buddhist or had heavy Buddhist inspiration and influences in their own religions, as such Buddhism was already bigger than Christianity before rise of Islam, and even after the Rise of Islam, Buddhism still can be considered the largest religion due to huge number of East Asian and South East Asian follower, Without Islam, Buddhism would eventually make roads into Europe through Russia, most likely through the nomadic travel and migration
 
Of course, Muhammad himself traded with Byzantine Syria and was well versed (honestly really shockingly well versed for some random trader, some of those stories would be pretty esoteric even in the 6th century) in Christian/Jewish theology. That doesn't really state anything about how familiar his fellow Arabs were with Christianity.

The presence of these stories in the Quran furthers the idea that the Arabs as a whole were not very familiar with Christianity, considering none of the Prophet's contemporaries tried to accuse him of plagiarism.
Why should they? He was not presenting those stories in the Qur'an as new stuff, previously unheard of. On the contrary, the Biblical content of the Qur'an has often what seems a very allusive tone, suggesting that the intended audience was assumed to be broadly familiar with the characters and topics referred to, and only needed to set the existing record straight. In some cases, exegesis points to exchanges with Jewish opponents, who of course would know about Biblical patriarchs. At other times, one sees the Qur'anic text saying that people were asking questions about earlier prophets. In general, it seems plausible that Arabia had monotheists of various kinds and some sort of knowledge about earlier Abrahimitic scripture was relatively common, even though perhaps not prevalent. It is hard to say much definitive about the religious picture of the time: the Muslim tradition is a mine of information, but sometimes inconsistent and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Radical revisionists miss the point, and the trend of evidence is not making a lot of favors to their main arguments. External sources are useful, but not very informative and they contain their own biases and inconsistencies.
The Qur'an rarely seems to feel much need to explain from the ground up who Musa, Nuh, Ibrahim or Jesus were, just to clarify points about their mission. To be fair, however, Qur'anic style is more allusive, as opposed to explanatory, in general.
The Muslim tradition on the life of the Prophet mentions a relative of his wife who was very well-versed in Christian Scripture, who would have confirmed his prophecy. It may be a hagiographical topos of course, but confirms that Muslims a century after the Prophet considered knowledge of Christianity in the Prophet's Mecca a credible situation.
 
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Why should they? He was not presenting those stories in the Qur'an as new stuff, previously unheard of. On the contrary, the Biblical content of the Qur'an has often what seems a very allusive tone, suggesting that the intended audience was assumed to be broadly familiar with the characters and topics referred to, and only needed to set the existing record straight. In some cases, exegesis points to exchanges with Jewish opponents, who of course would know about Biblical patriarchs. At other times, one sees the Qur'anic text saying that people were asking questions about earlier prophets. In general, it seems plausible that Arabia had monotheists of various kinds and some sort of knowledge about earlier Abrahimitic scripture was relatively common, even though perhaps not prevalent. It is hard to say much definitive about the religious picture of the time: the Muslim tradition is a mine of information, but sometimes inconsistent and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Radical revisionists miss the point, and the trend of evidence is not making a lot of favors to their main arguments. External sources are useful, but not very informative and they contain their own biases and inconsistencies.
The Qur'an rarely seems to feel much need to explain from the ground up who Musa, Nuh, Ibrahim or Jesus were, just to clarify points about their mission. To be fair, however, Qur'anic style is more allusive, as opposed to explanatory, in general.
The Muslim tradition on the life of the Prophet mentions a relative of his wife who was very well-versed in Christian Scripture, who would have confirmed his prophecy. It may be a hagiographical topos of course, but confirms that Muslims a century after the Prophet considered knowledge of Christianity in the Prophet's Mecca a credible situation.
I agree.

In fact, if most of the Arabs (at least the elites, traders, etc.) would have not been familiar to some Abrahamic concepts and stories from Judaism/Christianism, I think the spread of Islam would have been more difficult and slow than IOTL. We have many other examples of Pagan people which had been exposed to these ideas prior to evangelization (even if in this particular case, with a distinct Abrahamic branch) and they accepted it faster and deeper than peoples which had more abrupt contact (which probably ended in violent subjugation in order to make conversion possible, like in the cases of Saxons or Old Prussians).
 
Of course, Muhammad himself traded with Byzantine Syria and was well versed (honestly really shockingly well versed for some random trader, some of those stories would be pretty esoteric even in the 6th century) in Christian/Jewish theology. That doesn't really state anything about how familiar his fellow Arabs were with Christianity.

The presence of these stories in the Quran furthers the idea that the Arabs as a whole were not very familiar with Christianity, considering none of the Prophet's contemporaries tried to accuse him of plagiarism.
This is false verses in the Quran detail how the people accused him of using the tales of former people.

Read Surah an nahl verse 103
 
Why should they? He was not presenting those stories in the Qur'an as new stuff, previously unheard of. On the contrary, the Biblical content of the Qur'an has often what seems a very allusive tone, suggesting that the intended audience was assumed to be broadly familiar with the characters and topics referred to, and only needed to set the existing record straight. In some cases, exegesis points to exchanges with Jewish opponents, who of course would know about Biblical patriarchs.
Agreed. What I am saying though, is that the Prophet himself was likely familiar with Jewish and Christian theology, and certainly the verses which refer to other prophets could have been aimed at theological interchange with the Jews and Christians already in Arabia, or they could also be aimed at your average Bedouin who might have also been familiar with the Abrahamic religions.

In any case, its just speculation, my point was that these kinds of verses and stories only prove that the Prophet must have been familiar with that discourse (unless you ascribe the Quran divine origin, in which case it just came from God). Any other conclusions are just speculation, we don't know how familiar people in Arabia were with the names that were being described.

In general, it seems plausible that Arabia had monotheists of various kinds and some sort of knowledge about earlier Abrahimitic scripture was relatively common, even though perhaps not prevalent. It is hard to say much definitive about the religious picture of the time: the Muslim tradition is a mine of information, but sometimes inconsistent and needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Radical revisionists miss the point, and the trend of evidence is not making a lot of favors to their main arguments. External sources are useful, but not very informative and they contain their own biases and inconsistencies.
Agreed, basically. Although I'm not sure to what extent you could call those people monotheists in the modern definition. There are stories that Jesus and Mary were included as idols in the Kaaba. Overall, it seems more likely to me that they were probably lots of people who acknowledge a supreme creator diety (sometimes associated with the God of the Abrahamic tradition) and then also honored various tribal or local gods at the same time. To be fair though, this is just more speculation on my part.
The Muslim tradition on the life of the Prophet mentions a relative of his wife who was very well-versed in Christian Scripture, who would have confirmed his prophecy. It may be a hagiographical topos of course, but confirms that Muslims a century after the Prophet considered knowledge of Christianity in the Prophet's Mecca a credible situation.
That's a good point! If they didn't think it was anachronistic we probably shouldn't either.
 
Agreed. What I am saying though, is that the Prophet himself was likely familiar with Jewish and Christian theology, and certainly the verses which refer to other prophets could have been aimed at theological interchange with the Jews and Christians already in Arabia, or they could also be aimed at your average Bedouin who might have also been familiar with the Abrahamic religions.

In any case, its just speculation, my point was that these kinds of verses and stories only prove that the Prophet must have been familiar with that discourse (unless you ascribe the Quran divine origin, in which case it just came from God). Any other conclusions are just speculation, we don't know how familiar people in Arabia were with the names that were being described.


Agreed, basically. Although I'm not sure to what extent you could call those people monotheists in the modern definition. There are stories that Jesus and Mary were included as idols in the Kaaba. Overall, it seems more likely to me that they were probably lots of people who acknowledge a supreme creator diety (sometimes associated with the God of the Abrahamic tradition) and then also honored various tribal or local gods at the same time. To be fair though, this is just more speculation on my part.

That's a good point! If they didn't think it was anachronistic we probably shouldn't either.
I agree that we basically don't know, but I should add (since I am supposed to teach this sort of things) that we are currently seeing a dramatic increase in knowledge about pre-Islamic Arabia. Just last week, Ahmad al-Jallad published a pre-print work on Academia about the religion of the authors of Safaitic inscriptions (inland Southern Syria and Jordan mostly, roughly Roman period, language very close to Arabic). This is still very murky, but in general a murky picture is better than the mostly total blank filled in through guesswork from later (and not always reliable) sources we used to have earlier. The immediately pre-Islamic period shows a remarkable dearth of inscriptional material everywhere in Arabia, which is getting somewhat less severe now relative to what scholars knew even a decade ago, but that still shows changes. Interestingly, a very little of Late Antique material, to my knowledge, reflects earlier religious beliefs, but to be fair, we still have almost nothing from Central Arabian areas such as Najd or Central and Southern Hejaz (while Northern Hejaz does offer a little, as does al-Jawf in North-Central Arabia). South Arabia also gets nearly silent a little before 570 AD. I am not aware of any general explanation for this, but clearly something in the general social landscape of Late Antique Arabia was changing.
 
My vote would be for religion that doesn't exist OTL, probably coming out of Arabia. I wonder if the emergent Arab monotheism/"Rahmanism," combined with Hindu/Dharmic influence (especially that of reincarnation) and Ethiopian Orthodox tradition coming out of Axum, couldn't stew together to produce a theology/cosmology similar to that of Mormonism, where the belief is that "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be."
I myself am partial to timeline where a major Abrahamic religion sprouts up in some other area on the periphery of Christendom other than Arabia. Take, for example, this B_Munro scenario where Germanic tribes had spread just such a faith...


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You might also be able to do something like this with, say, the early Slavic migrations.
 
But by 600 ad the only power that was arian was the lombards with the franks been chalecedonian and the Visigoths converting some decades prior
I don’t think it would be that big a deal to play around with the timing of it, or hell even change the geography to say Vandal North Africa where you have Arianism, Donatism and Berber/Punic paganism stewing together with the Germanic elements.
 
Largely depends on what happens instead of Islam. Christian Arab conquests for instance likely neg Zoroastrianism and Buddhism about as hard as the Islamic Arab conquests did.
 
Largely depends on what happens instead of Islam. Christian Arab conquests for instance likely neg Zoroastrianism and Buddhism about as hard as the Islamic Arab conquests did.
It is highly unlikely that the Arabs would be politically unified without the Islamic state structures installed by the Rashidun Caliphs. Without a unified front they are unlikely to act anything like their OTL counterparts. In a world without Islam the Arab expansion will probably look much more like the Norse expansion in Europe than the OTL Arab conquests. The Arab influence on a place like Egypt might be like the Norse influence on the British Isles, Iraq might be a Arab Normandy etc.

I think that without Islam the Arabs are not going to be ruling Spain, the Magrheb or the Iranian plateau for any long period of time. They certainly wouldn't have the time to convert Iran, and it was the Iranians who converted the Turks and the rest of Central Asia.
 
I don’t think it would be that big a deal to play around with the timing of it, or hell even change the geography to say Vandal North Africa where you have Arianism, Donatism and Berber/Punic paganism stewing together with the Germanic elements.
Depends on the pod but with a post Muhammed birth for example the arians by 610 were gone remember the vandals were a tiny arian minority ruling over a nicean majority there
For arianism to survive there you need to prevent a roman reconquest by justinian or in general and even then it's not full proof as we saw with the Visigoths who converted
 
They certainly wouldn't have the time to convert Iran
They may not need to. "Merely" destroying the state organs that hindered the spread of Christianity and promoted the Zurvanite faith (which unlike Mazdaism did not survive long after the Sassanid's fall iOTL) would still have major consequences for the Iranian plateau.
 
This may have been addressed, and if so, I hope someone will direct me to the discussions..
But having selected 'Other Religion That Doesn't Exist in Our World', I wonder what sort of other religions could possibly arise?
 
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