Lusitania

Donor
I don't know what you mean by 'not enough galleys'. The point of the paper I linked to is that it isn't enough to have the technology, you need the social and political will to do it. No Roman sailing vessel could make the crossing, Galleys could and the mechanism described shows how they could carry the provisions, by using the troop accommodation for them. That means you can't do it with slaves - unless you want the slaves to form the colony. That requires a substantial change in attitude.

I don't to be honest see any practicable way to carry the resources for all the people proposed with existing Roman technology. A Roman 'America' seems only possible by hand waving away the resource issue and just assume they get there. The aftermath of a successful Roman Colony in North America raises lots of intriguing questions worth exploring
The size of the galley compared to the larger sailing vessels is my point. Plus Roman legions and craftsmen are not a experienced rowers and really keen on rowing.

Also if you do the math the number of galleys alone is staggering for 12,000 people and how would they get that many?

lastly wand waving is not encouraged and frowned on in the Pre-1900 forum. If that is the only way they get there then it should be in the ASB where Devine intervention or wand waving can get them there in less than a week.
 
The size of the galley compared to the larger sailing vessels is my point. Plus Roman legions and craftsmen are not a experienced rowers and really keen on rowing.
But Roman sailing vessels are not capable of making the crossing.
Also if you do the math the number of galleys alone is staggering for 12,000 people and how would they get that many?
Which is why I don't think it is practicable
 

Lusitania

Donor
But Roman sailing vessels are not capable of making the crossing.

Which is why I don't think it is practicable
The ability to cross with sailing boats can only be accomplished by doing it in stages and lots of luck. I have already provided scenario where the Romans sail to The Canaries, Cape Verde islands could provide resting areas and ability to restock water and some food. Then west using string westerly winds and currents north of equator to the lesser Antilles then continuing northeast using winds and Gulf Stream to Eastern US.

that route uses currents and winds to get the Romans there.
 
But Roman sailing vessels are not capable of making the crossing.

Which is why I don't think it is practicable

I dont know about that. Roman vessels were derived from Carthaginian vessels and slowly improved upon. Carthaginians went down the Atlantic to at least the region of the congo if not circumnavigated the continent of Africa. Theres also a theory about them having made contact with NA once idk about that one but its clear Carthages ships could sail the ocean why not roman
 
One thing I’m confused about is how the hell this expedition would get approved in the first place. 5 thousand soldiers and countless tens of thousands of people leaving in 400 AD? Neither half of the empire could afford that right now. Especially the western half, stilicho would imprison or kill anyone stupid enough to try and plan this out.
 
One thing I’m confused about is how the hell this expedition would get approved in the first place. 5 thousand soldiers and countless tens of thousands of people leaving in 400 AD? Neither half of the empire could afford that right now. Especially the western half, stilicho would imprison or kill anyone stupid enough to try and plan this out.
I do agree with this a lot. Besides, (as I wrote some posts ago) I am not convinced at all on the premise of "the fleeing from the sorry state of the Empire", which reflects modern views, but it is quite anachronistic IMHO.
 
I do agree with this a lot. Besides, (as I wrote some posts ago) I am not convinced at all on the premise of "the fleeing from the sorry state of the Empire", which reflects modern views, but it is quite anachronistic IMHO.
It definitely wasn’t in a great state but if someone was so unhappy with the state of the western empire then the eastern half was right next door. Would make more sense for this expedition to occur during a more prosperous time. Like 200 AD.
 
I dont know about that. Roman vessels were derived from Carthaginian vessels and slowly improved upon. Carthaginians went down the Atlantic to at least the region of the congo if not circumnavigated the continent of Africa. Theres also a theory about them having made contact with NA once idk about that one but its clear Carthages ships could sail the ocean why not roman
Sailing along the coast of Africa is very different to striking out into the unknown across the Atlantic. Roman sailing vessels were coastal shipping and built pretty much for the Med. The more I think about it the more I'm convinced this is ASB.
 
The thing about having the exact numbers of trireme and galleys depends if the 12.000 people include rowers... because then the number of overall craftsmen, artisans and the like is rather small. According to wikipedia, a trireme could carry 170 rowers and 30 crew including sailors. Putting aside supplies problems, it's just 60 trireme for 12000 people. But the colony population will be lower since there aren't enough women for everyone.
If the rowers aren't included, it's 400 trireme. In the largest naval battle in the antiquity, the romans had 300 ships (not all were trireme)

For resupplying a large fleet also you need a PoD where the canaries are a major trade hub because resupplying that many ships is no small task.

I looked into the Varsovian Reconnaissance paper linked and it says it needs 32 ships for each ship that makes it to the other side. So 60x32 = 1920 ships. However the paper raises a bunch of questions...
First of all, a quick google search gives no result for Marcellus Varsovian except for the paper itself. I don't think a roman who proposed to the senate a naval expedition to China, planning to invade it would be so unknown today.
Oh, and there are no sources whatsoever, but I'll take the numbers for granted.
The Author explains how Varsovian tought sailing vessels would be unfit for such a voyage, and a Roman Troop Galleys would be used, which from normally carrying 100 troops and 100 rowers, he would remove the lodging for the troops to have more supplies. So... how do they sail during the night? There are zero mentions about that. He lists average galley speed at 4-5 knkts, which would take 18 days for the distance given (in reality it would be another 1000km for NA) , but he says it would take 54 days. So I guess the ships would use sails? Altough he previously advised against it.
 
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Sailing along the coast of Africa is very different to striking out into the unknown across the Atlantic. Roman sailing vessels were coastal shipping and built pretty much for the Med. The more I think about it the more I'm convinced this is ASB.

One other thing i do have to add is that the romans did cross the indian ocean i have no idea if they crossed that by hugging coast or not. However i suspect there was some open wster sailing. I think the romans could have done it simply by getting taken away by the currents do i think 12000 no that would be hard unless for some reason the romans sent a colony to Africa trying to revive e the carthaginian african colonys, however for 1 or 2 ships to cross as long as they took enough provisions/and had the equipment to net fish or something then definitely.
 

Lusitania

Donor
One other thing i do have to add is that the romans did cross the indian ocean i have no idea if they crossed that by hugging coast or not. However i suspect there was some open wster sailing. I think the romans could have done it simply by getting taken away by the currents do i think 12000 no that would be hard unless for some reason the romans sent a colony to Africa trying to revive e the carthaginian african colonys, however for 1 or 2 ships to cross as long as they took enough provisions/and had the equipment to net fish or something then definitely.
The trade between India and Arabia was done based on seasonal winds. While I not sure the specific direction during which time of year the idea was that ships sailed East from Arabia only when the winds were blowing East. Then have to wait for change in winds blowing west for the return trip.
 
I have been trying to think of ways to reframe the scenario to get it to be able to be published on the Before 1900 forum. What if, in 400 A.D., a large fleet of soldiers, settlers, and their wives and children is sent from Gades or some other Roman port to Britannia in order to reinforce the Roman presence in the province and to help maintain control over it. I don't know how many people such a fleet would contain, but I would like it if they had between 1,000 and 10,000 people. Whatever number is more realistic will have to do. They get blown off course by a storm that is strong enough to blow them into a current that takes them across the Atlantic, but not strong enough to sink the entire fleet. Maybe a couple ships get sunk, but nothing too dramatic (such as the entire food supply of the fleet being lost). I could change the time period if that is necessary, to a date such as 200 A.D. or 300 A.D. Anyways, if they left from a port in Iberia I am pretty sure they will be blown Southwest by the winds and currents and then across the Atlantic. If they sail North by looking at the stars and thinking that if they sail North they should reach Britannia, we might be able to have them land in the Eastern US. I would prefer if they landed somewhere in the North or Mid-Atlantic, so that mosquitos and swamp diseases aren't an issue.

Another scenario could be that, at any time between the first and fourth centuries AD, the Romans send out a series of expeditions for a reason that can be decided on later. They take the route that goes from the Canaries to Cape Verde to the Lesser Antilles and finally North to the Eastern US. I say a series of expeditions because if, for some reason, the Emperor at the time decides to send out a few expeditions, I can have them land in different parts of the East Coast so that different subcultures emerge. This would be interesting, and I might be able to make use of some sort of conflict between colonies in the Carolinas fighting colonies in Georgia and in New England, or something like that. It would help to make the timeline much more interesting when I write it, instead of it being a 1,000-year tale of a unified empire gradually pushing West to the Mississippi and possibly the Rocky Mountains.

I tried to write a prologue and the first three chapters of the timeline yesterday, and that was when I realized that I don't exactly have any of this figured out yet. So I will continue to use this thread to ask questions concerning the TL. This being said, I had a question about how long it would take to settle certain areas of land. When the Romans land, depending on whether they land as one large group or as several smaller expeditions of a few hundred people each over the course of a couple years or so, they will probably be forced to stay in cities this, with different house designs of course, instead of the large cities they were used to.
Jamestown Settlement 1607 | Teaching american history, Jamestown colony,  Homeschool history

We might see the development of fortifications and fortified cities due to the very real threat of being annihilated by Native American attacks. I doubt this will be anything like the castles seen in Europe, but that is a possibility if the the Romans slip up and allow the knowledge of metallurgy and other advanced concepts to spread to the fledgling Mississippian civilizations when they develop in 800 AD. If that were to happen, the Romans would face a formidable opponent and would likely see their expansion halted. With these smaller settlements being established rather than massive cities like in Europe, I began to think how the pace of settlement would be affected. Assuming the Romans for whatever reason are forced to have these boundaries for a few centuries, how long would it be until their lands became thoroughly developed and settled?
See the source image

English settlement began in 1607 and, from what I have heard, the lands East of the Proclamation line were mostly settled by the time the American Revolution ended. At first, I assumed that this meant that after 170 years or so the Americo-Romans would have settled these lands. However, since circumstances are different, it may take longer. How long would it be until you couldn't just walk around and see miles of endless wilderness, but instead almost every available acre of suitable land has a farm, orchard, vineyard, or ranch on it, and roads are everywhere? This is referring to the darker shade of persimmon on the map above, not the lighter shade that shows lands that were acquired by the U.S. in the Treaty of Paris.
 

Lusitania

Donor
The thing is that a an smaller number of people works just as good. A few thousand soldier and Roman settlers (families, craftsmen and few intellectuals and learned individuals).

There would be disease and war around them as they interacted with nearby tribes. Many of these tribes be devastes by war and disease. The Roman soldiers would take wives from the natives. The orphans adopted.

within a generation you have a Roman nation 2-4 times larger than arrived. In time it would expand and setup additional towns and attack and defeat more natives and keep growing.
 
I looked into the Varsovian Reconnaissance paper linked and it says it needs 32 ships for each ship that makes it to the other side. So 60x32 = 1920 ships. However the paper raises a bunch of questions...
First of all, a quick google search gives no result for Marcellus Varsovian except for the paper itself. I don't think a roman who proposed to the senate a naval expedition to China, planning to invade it would be so unknown today.
Oh, and there are no sources whatsoever, but I'll take the numbers for granted.
Varsovian is fictitious. The paper is a piece of alternate history in itself. As the abstract says it is "an allegorical parallel". Hence no sources for the numbers. However there will be data somewhere on average consumption per man which I assume were used and which could be checked. I can't convert the figure for total cost of the expedition into arabic numerals - the table shows CDXLIVCCXXVII 'mille sestersium' so whatever that number is add three zeros.
The Author explains how Varsovian tought sailing vessels would be unfit for such a voyage, and a Roman Troop Galleys would be used, which from normally carrying 100 troops and 100 rowers, he would remove the lodging for the troops to have more supplies. So... how do they sail during the night?
I'm not sure of your point here. The rowers normally would be slaves. Galley slaves were pretty much bottom of the heap, so accommodation would be minimal, if any. The paper suggests they would need to be volunteers so releasing the troop space for supplies. So far as I am aware, except when going into battle, the rowers did not all work at the same time, so rowing at night isn't a problem. Accommodation for the rowers would still be minimal but no worse I suggest than in the average Viking long-ship.
He lists average galley speed at 4-5 knkts, which would take 18 days for the distance given (in reality it would be another 1000km for NA) , but he says it would take 54 days. So I guess the ships would use sails? Altough he previously advised against it.
Again the paper assumes 50% sailing time, 50% rowing time (p10)

In the end though, as I said earlier, the paper demonstrates that while it is technically feasible to get Romans to America, the cost has to significantly fall to make it practical. If it takes 32 vessels to get 100 people to America (setting aside that the estimate of the Earth's diameter is 30% too small so they wouldn't actually make it) , to get 12000 there requires 3840 which is pure ASB.

(12000 people fit onto 120 galleys at 100/galley. 120 x 32 = 3840.)
 
I have been trying to think of ways to reframe the scenario to get it to be able to be published on the Before 1900 forum. What if, in 400 A.D., a large fleet of soldiers, settlers, and their wives and children is sent from Gades or some other Roman port to Britannia in order to reinforce the Roman presence in the province and to help maintain control over it. I don't know how many people such a fleet would contain, but I would like it if they had between 1,000 and 10,000 people. Whatever number is more realistic will have to do. They get blown off course by a storm that is strong enough to blow them into a current that takes them across the Atlantic, but not strong enough to sink the entire fleet. Maybe a couple ships get sunk, but nothing too dramatic (such as the entire food supply of the fleet being lost). I could change the time period if that is necessary, to a date such as 200 A.D. or 300 A.D. Anyways, if they left from a port in Iberia I am pretty sure they will be blown Southwest by the winds and currents and then across the Atlantic. If they sail North by looking at the stars and thinking that if they sail North they should reach Britannia, we might be able to have them land in the Eastern US. I would prefer if they landed somewhere in the North or Mid-Atlantic, so that mosquitos and swamp diseases aren't an issue.

Another scenario could be that, at any time between the first and fourth centuries AD, the Romans send out a series of expeditions for a reason that can be decided on later. They take the route that goes from the Canaries to Cape Verde to the Lesser Antilles and finally North to the Eastern US. I say a series of expeditions because if, for some reason, the Emperor at the time decides to send out a few expeditions, I can have them land in different parts of the East Coast so that different subcultures emerge. This would be interesting, and I might be able to make use of some sort of conflict between colonies in the Carolinas fighting colonies in Georgia and in New England, or something like that. It would help to make the timeline much more interesting when I write it, instead of it being a 1,000-year tale of a unified empire gradually pushing West to the Mississippi and possibly the Rocky Mountains.

I tried to write a prologue and the first three chapters of the timeline yesterday, and that was when I realized that I don't exactly have any of this figured out yet. So I will continue to use this thread to ask questions concerning the TL. This being said, I had a question about how long it would take to settle certain areas of land. When the Romans land, depending on whether they land as one large group or as several smaller expeditions of a few hundred people each over the course of a couple years or so, they will probably be forced to stay in cities this, with different house designs of course, instead of the large cities they were used to.
Jamestown Settlement 1607 | Teaching american history, Jamestown colony,  Homeschool history

We might see the development of fortifications and fortified cities due to the very real threat of being annihilated by Native American attacks. I doubt this will be anything like the castles seen in Europe, but that is a possibility if the the Romans slip up and allow the knowledge of metallurgy and other advanced concepts to spread to the fledgling Mississippian civilizations when they develop in 800 AD. If that were to happen, the Romans would face a formidable opponent and would likely see their expansion halted. With these smaller settlements being established rather than massive cities like in Europe, I began to think how the pace of settlement would be affected. Assuming the Romans for whatever reason are forced to have these boundaries for a few centuries, how long would it be until their lands became thoroughly developed and settled?
See the source image

English settlement began in 1607 and, from what I have heard, the lands East of the Proclamation line were mostly settled by the time the American Revolution ended. At first, I assumed that this meant that after 170 years or so the Americo-Romans would have settled these lands. However, since circumstances are different, it may take longer. How long would it be until you couldn't just walk around and see miles of endless wilderness, but instead almost every available acre of suitable land has a farm, orchard, vineyard, or ranch on it, and roads are everywhere? This is referring to the darker shade of persimmon on the map above, not the lighter shade that shows lands that were acquired by the U.S. in the Treaty of Paris.

I like the idea that it isn't just one landing, but rather, several different landings, where these Americo-Romans all throughout the East coast, and each one develops it's own culture, and fight each other in wars for the first few centuries. Perhaps each culture has their own individual name for these new lands, maybe Elysium for one and Nova Roma for another as two examples, that becomes the name of their specific provinces over time. To maximize the feeling of the them viewing each other as alien, you could have them being fairly spread out to allow them a few more decades to develop. Then, to further maximize it, have them be exploring in different directions of each other, like have the ones in Nova Scotia expand torwards the Saint Lawrence river, and the ones in New England expand northwards, then expand Sothwards right before they find the ones in Nova Scotia. You could possibly have them meet one and another centuries after they've found this New World, thusly, they could all barely recognize eachother when do meet one and another. Then they could become more syncretized as they trade, conquer, and are conquered by eachother, allowing them to all see each other as apart of the same nation.

if you spread them out, and have each one have somewhere between one to ten thousand each, then have them trade with, conquer, and then integrate the naives, after the diseases hits them of course, with a high enough birth rate. I could see them developing the pink area of your map to their full potential in roughly about two and a half centuries at least, after the initial POD happening. That is of course is being generous to them, as they won't have any immigration from Rome to help them out here, I could easily see it happening about four centuries after the POD.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I like the idea that it isn't just one landing, but rather, several different landings, where these Americo-Romans all throughout the East coast, and each one develops it's own culture, and fight each other in wars for the first few centuries. Perhaps each culture has their own individual name for these new lands, maybe Elysium for one and Nova Roma for another as two examples, that becomes the name of their specific provinces over time. To maximize the feeling of the them viewing each other as alien, you could have them being fairly spread out to allow them a few more decades to develop. Then, to further maximize it, have them be exploring in different directions of each other, like have the ones in Nova Scotia expand torwards the Saint Lawrence river, and the ones in New England expand northwards, then expand Sothwards right before they find the ones in Nova Scotia. You could possibly have them meet one and another centuries after they've found this New World, thusly, they could all barely recognize eachother when do meet one and another. Then they could become more syncretized as they trade, conquer, and are conquered by eachother, allowing them to all see each other as apart of the same nation.

if you spread them out, and have each one have somewhere between one to ten thousand each, then have them trade with, conquer, and then integrate the naives, after the diseases hits them of course, with a high enough birth rate. I could see them developing the pink area of your map to their full potential in roughly about two and a half centuries at least, after the initial POD happening. That is of course is being generous to them, as they won't have any immigration from Rome to help them out here, I could easily see it happening about four centuries after the POD.
Unfortunately more people arriving is the problem. I think 2-3 thousand be max that would survive the voyage snd that is staging it with stops. Say 20% mortality.

so 1 single settlement be all they should set up. Then absorb the remnants of Indian tribes around them (due to war and disease).
 
The problem with the "absorbing the natives" idea is that I wasn't exactly wanting this civilization to grow into a mestizo one or a native one. No matter how long it takes, I was hoping for a European colony, and depending on when I have them land, I have 1,000 years or more to get their population to rise so that this is possible.
 

Lusitania

Donor
The problem with the "absorbing the natives" idea is that I wasn't exactly wanting this civilization to grow into a mestizo one or a native one. No matter how long it takes, I was hoping for a European colony, and depending on when I have them land, I have 1,000 years or more to get their population to rise so that this is possible.
But you are taking thousands of soldiers and no wives. They did not have wives with them so you will need to bring in native wives.
 
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