How would a fascistic USA looks like?

[Gukpard]

One of the most common tropes and threads on this forum is the fascist USA one, with someone who had a vague anti democracy ideal like Huey Long, MacArthur, Lindberg, being elected and devolving the American democracy and turning the USA into a state like fascist Italy or Nazi Germany.

I myself think it's impossible for the USA democracy to be crushed like that, even if the state went into far right politics, you still would have the federative system, the Congress and elections.

The USA also adopted some minor fascist policies in our timeline, the director of the national recovery administration, Hugh S. Johnson, was a corporatist and even handed free copies of "the corporatist state" from mussolini to some figures, Fdr included.

So here something "new" to discuss: assuming the USA elects someone like the individuals above, maybe even William Randolph Hearst or Henry Ford, the new deal gets completely based on the fascist Italy economic recovery plan, the NRA is kept, the USA adopts a more nationalist school system (without adopting the fascist salute), the communist party gets more suppressed, and then...

...then the USA is attacked and enters world war II, even with this timeline government refusing to aid the British and taking a completely isolationist stance, Japan proceeds with the attack on pearl harbour, one of the reasons being that the USA is rearming fast (due the proto fascist leaning of the government, not to provoke the axis). The USA joins the allies, officially allies with the British, makes purges against pro axis elements inside the USA (not exact fascists, but axis sympatisers, and also not purges like killing, by instead censoring and arresting). The war ends, the proto fascist government continues to dilute their policies on the following years, the opposition party is elected but keep some of their policies, then they are voted back but refuse to return to their old policies.

Then we get to the modern day. People stop and look behind to study the interbellum, world war II and the cold war and see the or fascist instance of the USA government, they see many similarities, while the grandsons and grandgrandsons of the figures of that time points out that they were not fascists, since they fought the axis, be Italy, Germany or Japan, while other groups, old democrats and old republicans want some of the corporatist measures back, not all times because of their proto fascist values, but because some of the policies had good effects and they think they would be needed.

Two important disclaimers:
1- Unethical experiments, like that one with syphlis, the Japanese internment and others, still happens, and might be even stronger, but nothing on the level of what Italy or Germany did, there is no American Holocaust, concentration camps, forced abortions or ghettos, the media is also not taken over by the state, the constitutions seems to be respected for most of the time.
2- some schools used the fascist salute in the USA for decades before mussolini showed up. Maybe when the USA turned into proto fascism, this was expanded to the whole country, so.when the scenario reaches modern times, there could be a discussion to ban or not to ban this salute on schools.

So, what do you think? How would be life on this USA? What would be the modern critic of the usa instance at that time?

One final thing, imagine being a American soldier in 1945 Germany and finding a downed nazi pilot, you come closer and see that his airplane is a f4u, and you remember that your Government sold this airplanes to them until 1941, imagine the bitterness this would cause.

 

[Ubik]

Lots and lots of flags and guns.

And pies.

 

[Deleted member 145893]

It would be an anti-Democratic heavily centralised society with militaristic qualities based on an organised economy. There would be private ownership but companies would exist to benefit the State, education would be geared to creating 'Superior Man' and there would be a State Religion based on Protestantism and the New Testament.

 

[overoceans]

It would be an anti-Democratic heavily centralised society with militaristic qualities based on an organised economy. There would be private ownership but companies would exist to benefit the State, education would be geared to creating 'Superior Man' and there would be a State Religion based on Protestantism and the New Testimony.

BlueWhiteRed:

What do you mean by "the New Testimony"? If it's the New Testament, I actually think an American fascism would be pretty big on the OT, in keeping with the tendencies of fundamentalist protestantism.

But reverence for the Old Testament would likely be chased down with a supercessionist ideology proclaiming that Christianity is the fulfillment of the OT, so all true-blue Americans need to flock to the cross.

And this is all assuming that a state church could ever got off the ground in the US. American protestantism being as it is, it might be like herding cats to get them all under one tent. And that's without even getting into the Catholics.

You might just end up with a regime that maintains formal disestablishment, while spouting rhetoric and advancing policies that, while falling short of a state church, are clearly meant to promote a conservative Xtian agenda.

 

[Anarcho-Occultist]

I think an American fascist regime would be more explicitly right-wing than the versions where Long brings it about. American exceptionalism taken up several notches would be core to American fascism and that would justify economics more capitalist than Share Our Wealth was, perhaps even more pro-capitalist than historic fascist regimes.

 

[Deleted member 145893]

BlueWhiteRed:

What do you mean by "the New Testimony"? If it's the New Testament, I actually think an American fascism would be pretty big on the OT, in keeping with the tendencies of fundamentalist protestantism.

But reverence for the Old Testament would likely be chased down with a supercessionist ideology proclaiming that Christianity is the fulfillment of the OT, so all true-blue Americans need to flock to the cross.

And this is all assuming that a state church could ever got off the ground in the US. American protestantism being as it is, it might be like herding cats to get them all under one tent. And that's without even getting into the Catholics.

You might just end up with a regime that maintains formal disestablishment, while spouting rhetoric and advancing policies that, while falling short of a state church, are clearly meant to promote a conservative Xtian agenda.

Sorry I have edited my post from testimony to testament.

National Socialism considered the Old Testament to be the 'Jewish Book', it strongly opposed to Catholicism and religion, in general, formed part of The State. Fascism on the other hand was not opposed to religion, but it did object to the Roman Catholic Church's influence over public life and political matters.

A state religion, like the educational system, would form part of The State's control over the population. Catholicism wasn't completely eradicated from Nazi society, but there were concerted efforts to suppress it. Republicans appear to be more religious than Democrats so I could see the likes of Lindberg being more committed to preserving religious beliefs albeit under The State Religion.

 

[overoceans]

Sorry I have edited my post from testimony to testament.

National Socialism considered the Old Testament to be the 'Jewish Book', it strongly opposed to Catholicism and religion, in general, formed part of The State. Fascism on the other hand was not opposed to religion, but it did object to the Roman Catholic Church's influence over public life and political matters.

I think an American fascism would be more like the Italian variety you hint at, minus the anti-Catholicism.

And that's not because the RCC is more influential than in Italy, but less. They simply wouldn't have the power or the prestige to challenge the state in any serious way. So the fascists in turn would not want to alienate the Father Coughlin contingent by waging war against a phantom threat.

Worst-case for the Church, the fascists would ban parochial schools from accepting non-Catholic students, and gently suggest to the bishops that they keep their mouths shut when fascist leaders appear at KKK rallies featuring speakers who denounce "popery".

 

[Deleted member 145893]

I think an American fascist regime would be more explicitly right-wing than the versions where Long brings it about. American exceptionalism taken up several notches would be core to American fascism and that would justify economics more capitalist than Share Our Wealth was, perhaps even more pro-capitalist than historic fascist regimes.

My understanding of the ATL United States of America would be based more on National Socialism rather than Fascism. I think privately owned industry would exist and as in Nazi Germany it would work to benefit the State. I can also imagine the regime would manipulate the patriotism - Americans have a very strong bond to their homeland.

 

[Deleted member 145893]

I think an American fascism would be more like the Italian variety you hint at, minus the anti-Catholicism.

And that's not because the RCC is more influential than in Italy, but less. They simply wouldn't have the power or the prestige to challenge the state in any serious way. So the fascists in turn would not want to alienate the Father Coughlin contingent by waging war against a phantom threat.

Worst-case for the Church, the fascists would ban parochial schools from accepting non-Catholic students, and gently suggest to the bishops that they keep their mouths shut when fascist leaders appear at KKK rallies featuring speakers who denounce "popery".

When I think of a Fascist or National Socialist America I see it as an austere Protestant nation, but that said Father Coughlin would probably be prime candidate to lead the new state religion.

 

[overoceans]

When I think of a Fascist or National Socialist America I see it as an austere Protestant nation, but that said Father Coughlin would probably be prime candidate to lead the new state religion.

Hmm, don't know if a nation that was freaked out about Al Smith as an elected president would be one that could be convinced to hand the state-religion over to Father Coughlin.

I think your austere protestantism is closer to the mark here. And actually, the old Democratic coalition of papist city-slickers in the north and fundy crackers in the south might be a template for the fascist constituency here, but it would probably need to forego an established church. And, no matter how much the party pandered to Catholics, I think protestants would have to remain the undisputed top dogs. See the fate of the aforementioned Smith.

 

[Wendell]

Fascism is hard to pull off in the American system, much like Communism, but the key to both is the ever-expansive administrative state. A New Deal on steroids, but perhaps a decade earlier, and possibly coupled with a stronger second wave KKK.

 

[Gukpard]

Fascism is hard to pull off in the American system, much like Communism, but the key to both is the ever-expansive administrative state. A New Deal on steroids, but perhaps a decade earlier, and possibly coupled with a stronger second wave KKK.

Why they don't take a anti kkk stance? The KKK can be considered pro CSA, so secessionist, and had the militias. The government could disarm and outlaw them since the government does not respect freedom of speech.

 

[Deleted member 145893]

Hmm, don't know if a nation that was freaked out about Al Smith as an elected president would be one that could be convinced to hand the state-religion over to Father Coughlin.

I think your austere protestantism is closer to the mark here. And actually, the old Democratic coalition of papist city-slickers in the north and fundy crackers in the south might be a template for the fascist constituency here, but it would probably need to forego an established church. And, no matter how much the party pandered to Catholics, I think protestants would have to remain the undisputed top dogs. See the fate of the aforementioned Smith.

In a Fascist or National Socialist state the People don't get a choice...

 

[Admiral Spaun]

It would look very small after all of the intelligent states seceded.

 

[Raferty]

My assumption is that it would be like Italian Fascism, with roots in the nationalization focused wings of the Socialist Parties and coming about after a traumatizing war where national ambitions are not met, and ultimately comes to power because middle classes lose faith in traditional parties to protect them from Communism.

We are talking about fascism here. "Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state"

If you are talking about authoritarian dictatorships, oligarchic power seizures, or anything of the like, if the private industry is not coopted, expropriated, or ran by nationalized regulatory boards, you aren't describing Fascism. A Protestant version of Francoism or Estado Novo is probably far more likely.

 

[David T]

The most predictable fact about a fascist regime in America is that it would not call itself fascist. It would indeed denounce "Communism, Fascism, and all other foreign 'isms.'"

 

[Anarcho-Occultist]

The most predictable fact about a fascist regime in America is that it would not call itself fascist. It would indeed denounce "Communism, Fascism, and all other foreign 'isms.'"

They’d probably call themselves Americanists or Patriots or something.

 

[overoceans]

In a Fascist or National Socialist state the People don't get a choice...

You're assuming that fascists attain and hold power simply by forcing their will on the public, whether the public likes it or not. I don't think that is always true.

 

[brunohusker]

What i'd see

1. Lots of reverence for the Flag, to the point of worship much like the Nazi's and the blood flag.

2. A love of violence. I don't know how common guns would be, and I don't know what if any gun control their was in Nazi Germany or Italy or Spain, but I feel like this might be a part of American Fascism, though I could also seem them encouraging the 2nd amendment more as a militia movement. You might see home guards or something formed to protect communities in case of invasion

3. A promoting of Christian heritage, and more than likely protestant heritage, though i'm guessing you'd have token jews and Catholics who'd support the movement. In fact if this came in the 30's, I could see conservative mainline protestants become like the protestant churches in Germany while some evangelical churches might become more like Bonhoeffer's Confessing Church that is against the government.

4. Lots of nativist sentiment. They wouldn't like anyone but Americans who were protestant and were not recent immigrants with a few exceptions. For example, maybe you see Irish and German Catholics become fascists due to them being around longer, while Italians and eastern european Catholics and Jews would be seen as corrupting an American church.

5. Love for the military

6. Emphasis on whitewashing history. This might be tough, but i'm guessing you'd promote a lot of things like Manifest Destiny and American Empire. Theodore Roosevelt would be revered. Abraham Lincoln might be too and they'd probably talk about how he defended the nation no matter what the law said, and strangely enough I could see a timeline where American fascists fight a rebellion against Southerners who are basically fascist, but hate the United States if such a thing happened.

7. An emphasis on public works. The WPA probably still continues. I know my conservative/libertarian dad talked about how in many ways Franklin Roosevelt had some powers like a dictator, and used it for things like Public Works. I still see that as a cornerstone of a fascist America. Maybe even a type of National Service that Americans would do after they turn 18 that is basically proto military training.

8. Disrespect for political enemies. Communists would probably be lynched along with blacks and jews and certain Catholics. I also feel like there'd be riots and boycotts

9. Big rallies. I'm guessing we see big rallies in places like Yankee Stadium and Soldier Field that would rival Nuremberg.

10. We still see elections continue on some level, but I don't know what that looks like. I feel like Americans wouldn't go for a strongman for long and I feel like we put too much emphasis on Democracy to just throw it all out. It might not be real democracy, but I feel like we still have voting though its probably only limited to White males and mostly protestant.

 

[overoceans]

Why they don't take a anti kkk stance? The KKK can be considered pro CSA, so secessionist, and had the militias. The government could disarm and outlaw them since the government does not respect freedom of speech.

In that famous anti-American poster the nazis made, the bizarre giant that's supposed to represent the USA does indeed wear a klan hood, and hold a rope meant to symbolize lynching. But it also portrays blacks as near-apes, so I guess the artist was just grabbing any weapon to hand.

The 1920s US klan was more focused on anti-immigration and anti-popery, and I am not sure how supportive they were of states-rights, given that they were mostly active in the north(even up into Canada), and had many Republican members. But the general racial and cultural worldview is one that fascism would certainly embrace.