How dystopian can a Ron Paul presidency get?

Now, Andre Marrou doesn't strike me as an incapable politician or as an incompetent human being (having been elected to office in the United States as a Libertarian and having graduated from MIT is in my view fairly impressive accomplishments), but I find it really difficult to believe that he would be the kind of diplomat who could persuade Saddam Hussein not to invade Kuwait.



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ll that would have been required was a firm and unambiguous 'don't do it' along with a fair resolution of the resource theft by Kuwait. Cheney IRL misled the Iraqis to believe that the USA was utterly uninterested in the fate of Kuwait.
 
All that would have been required was a firm and unambiguous 'don't do it' along with a fair resolution of the resource theft by Kuwait.

Yeah, sorry, but I'm really gonna need you to back this up a little further if I am to find this remotely plausible, because not many wars in the history of humanity could have been prevented by a firm and unambiguous 'don't do it'.

Plus, for the message to really have some effect, it needs to be backed up with some kind of threat, and somehow I doubt that Ron Paul would be prepared to go into war with Iraq.
 
Congress

May I add so small point to both sided of Debate. Either Utopia or Dystopia:


  1. Congress!
Yes, Ron Paul is no dictator. Hence he can not makes law on knee. He would prehaps Veto every bill he does not like. He could do that. But surly he can not abolish SS or what else.

He could Nominate FED board members akin to Jim Grant. So higher interest rates =>lower inflarion.



He could bz presidential order remove troops from far conrmers of the World to Home bases.


He coudl apoint to NRC someone who is pro Nuke.

To supreme court he would appoint some like Napolitano.

But what else. We either have situation where RP election s was doe to Extreme Buterfly or if it does reflect actuall atitudes of Normal people.


If some SHTF he would go to Congress and Demand DOW or Issuing Latters of Marque since he could not do anything else. Now ball would be in Hnads of Congress.
 
So, Ron Paul manages to win the presidency in either 1988, 2008, 2012, or some year in between Everybody knows Paul has some...questionable views(CSA apologism, isolationism, support for state government tyranny, etc.). If he gets into office and manages to act on those views, how badly would America get screwed?

Not much, really. The nation would suffer through 4-8 years of bad government, with the most extreme policies blocked in court or even in a (Republican-dominated) congress. Yes, the nation would shift to the libertarian right, but one president can only start turning the ship...it takes several successive administrations to make the new course permanent.
 
Yeah, but Medicare, welfare, and Social Security would be gutted (if not destroyed completely), taxes would be cut to the point where the government wouldn't be able to function, most regulations would be cancelled, and the Civil Rights Act would be repealed. It would basically be Rumsfeldia on steroids.


This is not necessarily a political theory debate, but I would disagree on your assessment and the percieved dystopia regarding a non interventionist market based economy and how you believe it would be a terrible thing.
 
Yeah, sorry, but I'm really gonna need you to back this up a little further if I am to find this remotely plausible, because not many wars in the history of humanity could have been prevented by a firm and unambiguous 'don't do it'.

Plus, for the message to really have some effect, it needs to be backed up with some kind of threat, and somehow I doubt that Ron Paul would be prepared to go into war with Iraq.

Saddam was going to have his conquest of Kuwait regardless. It wasn't about the cross-drilling, it was about looting the country to distract from the boondoggle the Iran-Iraq War inflicted on his country. The whole thing was basically the Austro-Hungarian invasion of Serbia ISOT'd 75 years into the future and in the Middle East.
 
Top kek this is like a "Obama wins 2008 presidency and turns country into Islamic communism."
I know AH is left as fuck but really guys? We had a two term bush and obama presidency and were not a fascist/communist state.

The most id see a ron paul presidency do would be to pull our troops out of Europe, say so long israel (which pleases the left) and put em on our borders (which ell please the right.) Gut some public programs and what not. Try to get rid of the IRS and give the states more "responsibility".

Plus its non-interventionist not non-isolationist, theres a difference. Plus We wouldnt be bombing all those countrys noone cares to remember then.

In all id be a love/hate relationship with both the Right/left wings
 
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I know AH is left as .........................

Interesting to see someone acknowledge that Reality. Early on here I noted the PC code which is every bit as rigid as that of democratunderground.......and ODD because kicking back with beer and peanuts to ponder the 'what ifs' of the past is hobby........NOT the mechanics of Real Politics where lots of meal tickets are always at risk.
 
Well we did have a President Paul in the form of Cleveland in the 19th century and he was pretty awful but I doubt a Ron Paul presidency would mean the end of the Untied States.

He'd be a terrible and ineffective President, but hardly the worst.

Unless he starts trying to satisfy his Neo-Confederate constituents. Then we'd have a problem.
 
Well we did have a President Paul in the form of Cleveland in the 19th century and he was pretty awful but I doubt a Ron Paul presidency would mean the end of the Untied States.

He'd be a terrible and ineffective President, but hardly the worst.

Unless he starts trying to satisfy his Neo-Confederate constituents. Then we'd have a problem.

Yeah, this. He'd be an ineffective President, probably limited to one term. He'd manage to get some of his policies passed, but even a Republican Congress would balk at some of his more out there proposals, and given that the House (almost) always switches in the first midterm elections he'd really only have two years to get things done before he became a de facto lame duck.

It wouldn't be Rumsfeldia bad, but more your bog standard shitty four years. Republican Jimmy Carter, basically.
 
I know AH is left as fuck but really guys? We had a two term bush and obama presidency and were not a fascist/communist state.

No shit? Bush wasn't a fascist and Obama wasn't a communist. Obviously, Ron Paul wouldn't and couldn't create the sort of libertarian dystopia people are describing, both because there are checks on a President's power and because nobody gets to go to Congress (let alone the White House) unless they play ball with the mainstream political establishment, Ron Paul included. But Ron Paul actually is a self-described libertarian. Obama has never espoused anything resembling communist ideology and as a millionaire politician from the upper echelons of the world's largest economy, I doubt he harbors any sympathy for such views even in his private thoughts.

Edit: Not to involve myself too deeply in a discussion that should really be on chat, but AH is not "left as fuck". Practically everyone here seems to endorse liberal representative democracy.
 
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Interesting to see someone acknowledge that Reality. Early on here I noted the PC code which is every bit as rigid as that of democratunderground.......and ODD because kicking back with beer and peanuts to ponder the 'what ifs' of the past is hobby........NOT the mechanics of Real Politics where lots of meal tickets are always at risk.


Actually, we're not run by a PC code, only a Illuminati-Freemason-Lizardman Triple Alliance which at the moment is waging a silent(but deadly) war against all right-wingers of any stripe who don't toe our dread lords' line.

Also, in a shocking twist, we already decimated the left-wing in last year's Order 77.
 
Yeah, this. He'd be an ineffective President, probably limited to one term. He'd manage to get some of his policies passed, but even a Republican Congress would balk at some of his more out there proposals, and given that the House (almost) always switches in the first midterm elections he'd really only have two years to get things done before he became a de facto lame duck.
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Pretty much. He'd probably get some social programs cuts and regulations loosened or ended but not to the degree he wants and I doubt we'd see an end to international alliances such as NATO or the UN as he'd probably need congressional approval to do that. Unless he wanted to be his usual hypocritical self and just issue executive orders that pulls the U.S. out of the UN and NATO.

It wouldn't be Rumsfeldia bad, but more your bog standard shitty four years. Republican Jimmy Carter, basically.
Essentially. Though at least Carter is a respectable person. :p;)
 
In truth anyone looking at the America of today 2015 from the perspective of ordinary middle America in 1988 would be hard put to imagine things going so badly with so little prospect for redemption in 27 years, not even a full generation.
 
Even if he were elected, none of the below would happen. No president can unilaterally do any of that and he's likely wise enough not to even try. Instead, he would likely just be a voice for moving things in that direction -- cutting government, reduced spending, etc. By the time he bashed his head against congress with those ideas, the impact would likely just be less spending growth.

Other than that, his tendency would be to be largely isolationist internationally, but once President, he'd see that there were lots of pushes for action from inside the government (Intel, State, DoD, Congress, etc) and he'd likely have to support/allow some.

I would actually like to read a 'Paul is somehow elected, here's how he would actually govern' TL one day. It would be much more nuanced than people think, as you say.
 
Top kek this is like a "Obama wins 2008 presidency and turns country into Islamic communism."
I know AH is left as fuck but really guys? We had a two term bush and obama presidency and were not a fascist/communist state.
Both Bush and Obama are mainstream US politicians. If you want a left-wing comparison, imagine Cynthia McKinney as president. Paul would be unable to work with either party in Congress.

In truth anyone looking at the America of today 2015 from the perspective of ordinary middle America in 1988 would be hard put to imagine things going so badly with so little prospect for redemption in 27 years, not even a full generation.
Not really, America is better in many ways, and the ways it isn't were already beginning in the 1970s and 1980s.
 
In truth anyone looking at the America of today 2015 from the perspective of ordinary middle America in 1988 would be hard put to imagine things going so badly with so little prospect for redemption in 27 years, not even a full generation.
Yeah. Longer life expectancies, no Cold War thus no glooming ever present threat of nuclear annihilation, a mostly peaceful collapse of the Eastern bloc and Soviet Union, new medical advances than there were in the 80s, greater interconnected world than before, boom in technological advancement, no war between any major powers yet.

Clearly we are living in a Dark Age.

Oh woe are we.
Not really, America is better in many ways, and the ways it isn't were already beginning in the 1970s and 1980s.
This, looming for the past is a silly notion.
 
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Clearly we are living in a Dark Age.

Oh woe are we.

This, looming for the past is a silly notion.


Deindustrialisation and looming National bankruptcy, a collapse of education and infrastructure, two humiliating lost wars, an utterly corrupt political class willing to sell America to foreigners for campaign cash, police state quality survailance .................sure is wonderful
 
Deindustrialisation and looming National bankruptcy, a collapse of education and infrastructure, two humiliating lost wars, an utterly corrupt political class willing to sell America to foreigners for campaign cash, police state quality survailance .................sure is wonderful

I fail to see how an arch-free market libertarian/socially conservative Rob Paul one term Presidency would avoid all of that.
 
In my view, I tend to think that Ron Paul's presidency would be viewed as an embarrassment for the Republican Party, especially if he became POTUS during 2008 or 2012.

2012 is the most recent election and his last attempt for the office, so I'd like to think that if Romney's campaign imploded during the Primaries that conceivably the former Congressman could win the nomination if Gingrich and Santorum bow out as they did OTL. Barring a major scandal tarring President Obama, I don't see him able to win the votes outside of the Deep South. But for the sake of the thread, let's presume Benghazi erupts sooner and the GOP runs with it tarring Obama's reputation enough for Paul to squeak by.

I see President Paul trying to push for the abolishment of the Department of Homeland Security which would generate a lot of pushback from prominent Republicans and Democrats (specifically John McCain and Hillary Clinton). Championing the abolishment of the welfare state would probably earn him considerable ire from the liberal wing of the Republican Party. Likewise, pulling out of the Middle East would anger many in the party and even earn scorn from Democrats, though I suspect he would also have backing for this from peace minded people like Gary Johnson and Dennis Kucinich.

I'd be willing to bet that social conservatives would champion his pro-life stance as well as his anti-gun control stance (shoot even Bernie Sanders would support President Paul on that regard), but the real question is how many would support his going after the Federal Reserve? I wonder how many feathers that would ruffle. Some champion an audit of the Fed, but not many seem to argue for outright abolishing the Fed. You could see many talking about how Paul wants to damage the US financially by destroying the Fed, and some would likely point out the economic downturn that happened when Andrew Jackson abolished the Second National Bank.

You’d have a political firestorm though from his stance on the Civil Rights Act from people like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson which would tar the Paul Administration as inherently racist (think “George Bush doesn’t care about black people” on steroids.) In 2014, the midterms would not be kind to the President as the Democrats would likely maintain control of the House and gain control of the Senate which would see political obstruction that would make the Tea Party’s current filibustering seem tame. Meanwhile, President Paul’s approval ratings would likely be in the low 20’s nationally, enough to make people seriously question whether or not they would have been better off with President Obama or even a potential President Romney.

If we go by the positives, you might see President Paul champion something like term limits for the Congress and the Senate, but that would only really happen if he had Gary Johnson as his running mate, which is extremely likely. You might even see the legalization of cannabis, or at the very least decriminalization of it. But, for every positive, President Paul would have a lot more negatives to go with it, most likely the alienation of our allies in NATO as well as trying to pull the United States out of the United Nations. Though, the latter would most likely be championed by a handful of the conservatives in both parties.
 
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