Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot

[Krishna123]

Honestly that book is a bit overrated from an ancient point of view and many of the so called "wise" quotes from it would be glaringly obvious to any competent military commander; "know your enemy and know yourself" of course, no one goes into a battle without knowing the enemies usual tactics, composition, and strategies they used in the past because that's how Carrhae happened.

Though part of me suspects the book was mainly to teach the absolute basics to weak aristocrats who got their positions from nepotism or other connections. Romans would probably read the book and laugh at it.

Traditionally Roman military learning was just that, book learning interspersed with on the job training, the change to the academy system would indeed weed out some of this, however what books would they learn from other than their own and others military literature. unless there was some conscious effort to produce new military manuals (there you are talking about the number of wealthy enough people who liked writing) for that school system. naturally you would employ military veterans as teachers however how would you go about educating the children of Senators, Equestrians etc? I think this has been discussed but I cant recall in which chapter?

on another note I hope that the decisive battle that is planned shows off some of that lovely siege tech hinted at by Hectatee. plus I am thinking prepared positions, plenty of stakes, flame fougrasses (amphorae filled with flammables ignited by either slowmatch or maybe copper wire/electrical device?) plus pre-deployed caltrops to funnel cavalry to pre-defined fields of fire? strike down the barbarians........

 

[Hecatee]

Vultures’ keep, Armenian kingdom, Caucasus mountains, April 248


Vultures’ keep was a bleak stone fortress in the middle of nowhere, its guarrison cut off from almost everything, except it was on an important trade road through the mountains.

No one could remember when the keep had been built originally, although its reinforcement, repairs and improvement was less than twenty years in the past. Roman engineers in the pay of the Armenian king had come and redesigned the place, the cost borne in large part by the taxes now more effectively collected. The high walls erected through the pass, with a large covered passage giving into a courtyard where traders’ merchandises could be assessed, prevented any unwanted passage.

Tall as four mens, equipped with slate roofs above the parapet to help protect the soldiers from arrows, it even featured pergulae, stone corbel jutting from the wall with murder holes allowing to throw stones, burning sand or hot oil on any invader. The towers and bastions also held spots on which to deploy balistae, increasing the defensive firepower of the defenders…

Truth be told the fortress was clearly overkill, and the garrison of fifty men was too small for such an huge complex, but the king had ordered it and so it had been built. This folly was not the only one, a number of other passes in the mountains had been similarly blocked, ostensibly for taxing the trade.

Those at court knew it was not so, and had approved of the expenditure as a prudent move. Beyond the mountains lived nomadic scythian tribes, which had attacked the kingdom on numerous occasions in the past, and the example of the Bosphorean kingdom had shown it was possible to them at bay with strategic fortifications…

The keep was not isolated but at the center of a network of smaller towers which could warn it from incoming threats. Huge pyres were kept ready to be lit at need to inform everyone of barbarian incursions, and the population knew that if one of the beacons lighted up they needed to move to Vultures’ keep for protection.

Mynasian did not care much about the grand strategy of his kingdom, he was simply bored from watching the mountains. At first he’d been awed by the sight, but by now, six month in his tour of duty in the citadel, he simply felt bored. He could not know it but later in life he’d come to regret his boredom !

As he was looking north from the top of the highest tower, enjoying a surprisingly warm day for the month, he suddenly tensed. Was it smoke on the horizon ? Indeed it was ! Taking the large wooden mallet that lay next to him, he hit the large wooden plank that hung nearby. The deep sound reverberated from the mountains as he hit it repeatedly, sounding the alarm.

Soon the commander of the fortress arrived, and cursed. The defenses of Vultures’ keep would be put to the test…

 

[Palantir]

As he was looking north from the top of the highest tower, enjoying a surprisingly warm day for the month, he suddenly tensed. Was it smoke on the horizon ? Indeed it was ! Taking the large wooden mallet that lay next to him, he hit the large wooden plank that hung nearby. The deep sound reverberated from the mountains as he hit it repeatedly, sounding the alarm.

I sense a "Return of the King" vibe.

By the way, 3 new story posts in 2 days! You definitively aren't helping with my addiction.

 

[Hecatee]

I sense a "Return of the King" vibe.

By the way, 3 new story posts in 2 days! You definitively aren't helping with my addiction.

Ahah sorry, some wanted more updates and I'm only catching up on the last weeks of absence Oh and brace yourself for the annual Christmas to New Year daily updates (although this might get interupted by a short trip to Rome, to be confirmed)

As for the tolkienesque element, I did not think of it as I wrote the update, it is no Helms' Deep with no possibilities for retreat and while the odds will indeed be bad for the defenders, they do occupy a formidable position and are backed up by the full might of the Armenian kingdom. Or a least they should be...

 

[Positively Indecent]

Ahah sorry, some wanted more updates and I'm only catching up on the last weeks of absence Oh and brace yourself for the annual Christmas to New Year daily updates (although this might get interupted by a short trip to Rome, to be confirmed)

As for the tolkienesque element, I did not think of it as I wrote the update, it is no Helms' Deep with no possibilities for retreat and while the odds will indeed be bad for the defenders, they do occupy a formidable position and are backed up by the full might of the Armenian kingdom. Or a least they should be...

I think they were referring more to the Beacons of Amon Dîn if I'm not mistaken. Seems an appropriate analogy considering the advancements in communication that the Romans have developed.

I have to say, I have thoroughly enjoyed your work. It's clearly well researched and outside of occasional (and entirely understandable/forgivable) grammar slips which you clearly work very hard to find and correct, your posts are extremely well written, especially for someone who is writing in their non-native language.

I saved your timeline for a long time before reading so that I could study this period of history to obtain a greater understanding of the subject matter. It was a delight to work through it. In particular, I greatly enjoy the interactions between Rome and Serica and hope to see more.

I recently was reading about Roman expeditions to sub-saharan Africa and in your opinion, do you consider it likely that some kind of colony could be established in Southern Africa (either accidentally or by design)? The greater contact between Rome and the East could be a strong factor in Romans attempting to circumnavigate Africa. However, with Roman control of Mesopotamia, this need may not be as strong so long as they can maintain a port on the Persian Gulf (unless war in the East disrupts the trade routes). Do you see a major port city developing on this basis?

 

[Hecatee]

I think they were referring more to the Beacons of Amon Dîn if I'm not mistaken. Seems an appropriate analogy considering the advancements in communication that the Romans have developed.

I have to say, I have thoroughly enjoyed your work. It's clearly well researched and outside of occasional (and entirely understandable/forgivable) grammar slips which you clearly work very hard to find and correct, your posts are extremely well written, especially for someone who is writing in their non-native language.

I saved your timeline for a long time before reading so that I could study this period of history to obtain a greater understanding of the subject matter. It was a delight to work through it. In particular, I greatly enjoy the interactions between Rome and Serica and hope to see more.

I recently was reading about Roman expeditions to sub-saharan Africa and in your opinion, do you consider it likely that some kind of colony could be established in Southern Africa (either accidentally or by design)? The greater contact between Rome and the East could be a strong factor in Romans attempting to circumnavigate Africa. However, with Roman control of Mesopotamia, this need may not be as strong so long as they can maintain a port on the Persian Gulf (unless war in the East disrupts the trade routes). Do you see a major port city developing on this basis?

First thanks for the thorough comment ! I do indeed try to do my research (altough I must admit to sometime lazily falling back on what I remember from my master degree 15 years ago or my various travels) and indeed I try to write proper English although I must say here, as I do every time I do give a conference, that I must ask you to please pardon my French

About Serica, there will be some other interractions, but I'm not familiar enough with the Far East to confortably write about it and given that my time is rather scarce between my day job, the research activity I have on the side, my other writing activities, my political position in my city's town council and my travels, I can't dedicate enough time for proper investigation.

As for Africa, Rome has here both the Suez Canal and the Mesopotamian trade route, they do not need to go to Africa. The expeditions of the 1st century AD did not bring back any great riches, and exploration on the west coast is somewhat difficult. Exploration on the East coast however is somewhat easier and I could see a Roman Zanzibar except that you have the trading Jews already somewhat controlling the sea trade in the area, so few Romans would even botter with it.

Also note that the Indian ocean trade is, at this point, largely seasonal, and so does not lead to great cities on the Roman shores, be it in Egypt (Berenice is only slightly bigger than OTL, and it is possible to sail to Alexandria) or Mesopotamia (although Bosra is a sizable city, given that it also hosts a large military presence).

 

[Krishna123]

Hi, I hope you had a great time on your travels! there is one thing that the Romans would be willing to go to west Africa for GOLD................ as ever the most important thing about any naval exploration is AMERICA........

 

[Hecatee]

Hi, I hope you had a great time on your travels! there is one thing that the Romans would be willing to go to west Africa for GOLD................ as ever the most important thing about any naval exploration is AMERICA........

I had a great time in Japan, thanks Now preparing for Paris this week-end and Dublin in 3 weeks

I agree there is gold, and the trade road is old, but there is also the desert and the Romans don't see how to control the area, they are an agrarian culture and the Sahara is a decent barrier to them, one they can patrol too with enough strenght to prevent any trouble for the farms north so they are happy on this front

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

I had a great time in Japan, thanks Now preparing for Paris this week-end and Dublin in 3 weeks

I agree there is gold, and the trade road is old, but there is also the desert and the Romans don't see how to control the area, they are an agrarian culture and the Sahara is a decent barrier to them, one they can patrol too with enough strenght to prevent any trouble for the farms north so they are happy on this front

I think he meant using ships.

 

[dunHozzie]

That is a beautiful fortification, it’s just missing the Shad special:

(jump to 1:50 to skip the ad)

 

[Hecatee]

That is a beautiful fortification, it’s just missing the Shad special:

(jump to 1:50 to skip the ad)

Nope, there are some I made sure of it That's why I specifically mentionned the pergulae, which is the closest latin equivalent to... MACHICULAAAATTTTTTTTIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNN You can see them on the left of the castle, just right of the tower

It is a castle set in Georgia, but its medieval and not in the right part of the Caucasus for our story, still I felt it was appropriate for this story.

 

[Hecatee]

I think he meant using ships.

I understand, but even so the Romans are not really interested because below Mogador sailing becomes difficult and the land is really barren, so why go further when they have all the fish they want for garum with what they hold. They don't know that the gold they sometime see coming from the south, carried by nomads, can be obtained from a large river, and they simply don't have the motivation of the OTL Portugueses given that they do have access to the eastern road and no one is cutting them from the spice lands

 

[EmperorOfTheNorthSea]

I understand, but even so the Romans are not really interested because below Mogador sailing becomes difficult and the land is really barren, so why go further when they have all the fish they want for garum with what they hold. They don't know that the gold they sometime see coming from the south, carried by nomads, can be obtained from a large river, and they simply don't have the motivation of the OTL Portugueses given that they do have access to the eastern road and no one is cutting them from the spice lands

Easy. Someone wants to show that Romans can go further than any smelly punic

Though yes, the trans-saharan trade didn't really kick off until ~500 CE or so. So it might be that they don't know whats down there though I think I do remember hearing about a Roman account of Lake Chad.

 

[Timmy811]

Didn't Marcus Aurelius convene a big council of navy officers and merchant traders to discuss what exploration should be done after the expedition to Serica?

No Romans since then have made it to the Gulf of Guinea?

 

[Krishna123]

I had a great time in Japan, thanks Now preparing for Paris this week-end and Dublin in 3 weeks

I agree there is gold, and the trade road is old, but there is also the desert and the Romans don't see how to control the area, they are an agrarian culture and the Sahara is a decent barrier to them, one they can patrol too with enough strenght to prevent any trouble for the farms north so they are happy on this front

Gold, the only thing that makes humans perform worse deeds on each other than the usual excuse of that person comes from somewhere I don't know. The natural advancement of naval tech at least to the point that naval voyages down the west African coast, the colonization of the OTL Canaries and the Azores is indicated by your previous posts I think (or at least hinted at) so ergo the resource if known or discovered is reachable. the desert route was indeed known and used however the renaissance of this was the Islamic camel age that was not possible at this point for reasons other than the rise or fall of the Roman Empire. Roman north Africa was a Chimera at this point in history being that it had both a large agricultural sector and a burgeoning food processing (olive oil, fish sauce, wine, grain etc) along with light industrial in the form of the pottery industry. This meant that the environment was there to produce trading companies (an evolution of the otl arrangements no?) the Jewish dimension would be even better to some extent as factions of the various merchant dynasties branch out to the west African trade founding trading stations in the islands and on the coast at various points for slave trading purposes if nothing else.

 

[Hecatee]

Didn't Marcus Aurelius convene a big council of navy officers and merchant traders to discuss what exploration should be done after the expedition to Serica?

No Romans since then have made it to the Gulf of Guinea?

Yes there was this meeting, but navigation was mainly done in the Indian Ocean, because it was felt it was where there would be the most gain, and on the approach to the Baltic, to improve trade on the Atlantic façade, but little had been done toward the southern Atlantic.
One of the reason is that there is not enough perceived return on investment and that the big shipyards making the large seagoing ships are all in the East, being developped initially for the grain trade from Alexandria and elsewhere.
Overall the tech does exist in the empire to build something on the scale of a Caravelle such as Columbus', but the Empire is not really thinking west or south, all attention is on the East and the known riches there. In fact the Romans' advances in geography play against them in a way because they know the size of the planet and its shape, and know that they could not shorten their trip to China by going west.

 

[Dain]

Eventually, some curious merchant or well-funded philosopher is going to explore down the coast to see what lies beyond the known horizon. It is human nature.
But yeah, there is no reason why it would have to happen particularly soon. Not at that tech level.

 

[Positively Indecent]

Well it seems that my question sparked some good discussion on the subject.

According to Wikipedia, there does seem to have been some ideas of circumnavigation that never bore fruit. Link below for those who are interested (it is unfortunately not a very substantial article).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romans_in_Sub-Saharan_Africa

However, the primary purpose does seem to be the securing of gold and spices which a more successful Roman Empire may admittedly not have the extra impulse to secure. Although, there were implications in the earlier posts that some of the gold mines (such as the ones in Dacia) may be running out. However, this would probably drive the Romans to devote themselves to securing more readily apparent sources instead of wild exploration fantasies.

Of course, there is always the possibility of private exploration efforts (maybe with the assistance of the Jewish merchants) but with the Roman state in a stronger position, they may treat these enterprises with suspicion (after all, why allow others to secure wealth and power outside of the control of the state?).

Nevertheless, the idea of a synthetic Roman/native state in South Africa using Legions to secure a place in the world intrigues me and if I had the skills or knowledge I would consider making a TL from the idea.

 

[Neko Tamo]

It seems only natural to me that when Roman elites get a better taste for the lucrative trade in the Indian Ocean they will use their military might to monopolize the most lucrative trade routes and locations for themselves. Why leave the profit in the hands of middlemen. Seize Hormuz and Ethiopian/Arabian trade cities from the Jews, seize a few cities in India/Ceylon like the Portuguese did for trade. Greater trade would demand bigger and better fleets so even more naval advancement. From there expansion towards the Swahili coast (not that there would be Swahili ITL, maybe Latinili ) and further east towards the Spice Islands and a greater trade with the Far East. Obviously this would evolve into a kind of Colonialist setup at least at first, maybe they would Romanize the claimed regions later. Eventually someone would circumnavigate Africa, for business or pleasure. From there you may get some settlement in South Africa and it is only a matter of time before someone gets blow by the winds towards Brazil and we all know what that means.

This seems like a very probably chain of events to unfold, but we will see what @Hecatee has in mind.

 

[Timmy811]

The Romans don't have the ability to project force like that. It's not like India is underpopulated like much of the Mediterranean was when the Greeks established their far flung colonies.

Seizing Socotra and maybe Qeshm depending on what happens in this upcoming war would be the limit.

The cities of the Red Sea coast would be well within their reach however.