Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

...fuck

This to me implies that Italy, at least, is on the same side as the US in the upcoming war. This might confirm the theory of the Fascists allying with the US/UK to take out the Soviets.
I doubt that, I don't see anything suggest to me of whitewash of fascism thus far, rather we keep getting message of communism is equal if not more evil than fascism. Personally I'm still betting on WW3 with the reds over Korea-like scenario theory.
 
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I doubt that, I don't see anything suggest to me of whitewash of fascism thus far, rather we keep getting message of communism is equal if not more evil than fascism. Personally I'm still betting on WW3 with the reds over Korea-like scenario theory.
We're not seeing whitewashing in the narratives, but what we do see is the history books pushing back against pre-existing whitewashing.
 
Part 5-10 Into the Abyss, Revisionist Viewpoints, Sidewise
…Sanna neither liked nor trusted Hitler. He was however willing to work with him in order to show the British and French the nature of the error they had made in going back on their word about Ethiopia.

He offered Hitler a simple quid pro quo, Hitler would recognize the Italain conquest of Ethiopia and in turn Sanna would diplomatically support a German remilitarization of the Rhineland and Saarland, the latter having returned to German control following a plebiscite.

Hitler was ecstatic at the possibility, he had already been considering such an action ever since he took office, having had to be talked out of doing so immediately after the Plebiscite in the Saarland. The high command of the Wehrmacht, while approving of the remilitarization in principle thought that the timing was not yet right and that France needed to well and truly be distracted for a remilitarization to occur. Italain support was sufficient to quell enough fears for Hitler to feel comfortable proceeding without worrying about a military coup overthrowing him.

Hitler however needed a fig leaf to justify it. He planned on only sending 20 battalions and two squadrons of aircraft, so that the violation of the post Versailles treaty system was not “flagrant” and the Italians could thus stand by a promise from the mid 20’s to punish “flagrant” violations of the treaty system. The British had made the same promise and Hitler needed something to give them a reason not to consider the violation “flagrant,” the Anglo-German Naval Agreement was one thing, but more was obviously necessary.

Fortunately for Hitler and unfortunately for the rest of Humanity the French gave him exactly what he wanted…

…Since the effective breakup of the Florentine Front the French were looking for something to deter Germany, with Britain seeming to prefer appeasement and the Italians potentially willing to throw France under the bus for a big enough bribe they had no effective great power alliance. Worse their alliance of lesser powers was almost gone

The loss of the alliance with Yugoslavia had been a major blow to plans to have a smaller network of states substitute for a greater power, without Yugoslavia there was no longer a clear enough edge to convince Hungary and Poland to remain neutral rather than align with Germany against French aligned Czechoslovakia and Romania. Worse Belgium had decided to return to their previous policy of neutrality, worried that their alliance with France might drag them into a war which did not matter to them.

Thus with Britain and Italy off the table, and a collection of minor powers not viable, France turned to the only other great power interested in containing Germany, the Soviet Union. French Foreign Minister Barthou had sought an alliance with the USSR, having worked for it since 1934. Previous French governments however had refused it, not wanting to let the communists get greater influence in Europe and preferring to work with Italy. The accession of Socialist Leon Blum to the office of Prime Minister in early 1936 changed that. Blum, dependent on the Communists for a parliamentary majority, was willing to work with the USSR. Thus France signed a military alliance with the Soviet Union, and in doing so invalidated several post-Versailles agreements on European stability.

Hitler had his fig leaf…

…On July 14th German troops crossed into the Rhineland. Under strict orders to retreat if the French intervened they advanced to cheering crowds and crossed the Rhine by noon. At the same time messages were delivered to the ambassadors of Britain, France and Italy informing them that Germany was forced into this action by the Franco-Soviet Pact and that the move was necessary for German security.

The French, despite a visceral dislike of the move were unwilling to make serious steps. Mobilization was judged as both too expensive and too politically divisive, any military action would have to be done with standing forces. Given an overinflated picture of German strength the French military told the government that military success without mobilization could only occur with British and Italain aid.

Sanna, per his agreement with Hitler, supported the German move, stating that in the light of France’s illegal actions the Germans were making necessary defensive moves. The British public and a number of major politicians either agreed, or simply thought that the demilitarization of the Rhineland was an unjust and unnecessary humiliation from Versailles Germany was now correcting. The remainder simply thought Britain was in no position to risk war, thus the British urged the French to act with restraint.

The French therefore limited their response to diplomatic protests, introducing sanctions bills in the League of Nations and moving some soldiers to the German border. The last move was a desperate bluff to get the Germans to back off, the French troops being ordered to stay on their side of the border.

The high command of the Wehrmacht fell for the French bluff hook line and sinker, urging Hitler to withdraw from his suicidal course of action before it was too late. Other ministers urged more calm and Hitler listened to them, after confirming via reconnaissance flights that they French were staying on their side of the border. After several days the hollowness of the French bluff became apparent and Hitler’s move was an unmitigated success. Any doubts about his leadership…

…With the remilitarization of the Rhineland Sanna felt his message had been sent. Britain and France had paid a price for breaking a deal with him, now he was once more open to cooperating with them to contain Hitler, for the right price.

Unfortunately events in Spain made that cooperation impossible…

-Into the Abyss: The leadup to the Second World War, Harper and Brothers, New York, 2009


…From a legal perspective the argument that the Franco-Soviet Pact violated the myriad of 1920’s treaties intended to keep the peace in Europe is an extremely weak one, the pact being purely based on working within the framework of the League of Nations treaty system…

…It is clear from what we know of French politics at the time that the pact was most likely intended by the French purely as a bluff to deter Hitler by presenting him with the specter of a two front war if he acted too aggressively. French refusal to include any clauses relating to military coordination support this view…

-Excerpt from Revisionist Viewpoints in History Volume XXXI, University of California Press: Berkley, 2021


…The Rhineland crisis is often considered the best chance to avoid WWII as we know it, and for good reason. Had even a handful of French troops crossed the border the Germans would have retreated in disgrace. Hitler would have been humiliated, and if he insisted on a fight with the French overthrown by the Wehrmacht. Even if he acquiesced to the retreat his credibility would have been shot and his ability to make aggressive moves without being overthrown would be gone…

…This makes the Rhineland crisis the single biggest missed opportunity in the leadup to WWII to avert the War, or at the very least change the circumstances to something much less horrifying…

-Excerpt from Sideways: An Examination of Common Divergences in Counterfactual History, Gate Publishing, Atlanta, 2016
 
Okay now I'm just baffled. I always thought Sanna would not be part of WWII on Hitler's side, given some of the previous hints, but now it looks like he's certainly too blocked off from working with the western allies now over this.
 
Okay now I'm just baffled. I always thought Sanna would not be part of WWII on Hitler's side, given some of the previous hints, but now it looks like he's certainly too blocked off from working with the western allies now over this.
I'm not sure about it. I don't see Sanna doing the whole Benny the Moose thing and going I only need a few thousand dead to sit at the peace table.

I had a theory but I'm not posting it just yet.
 
Okay now I'm just baffled. I always thought Sanna would not be part of WWII on Hitler's side, given some of the previous hints, but now it looks like he's certainly too blocked off from working with the western allies now over this.
He could be neutral, or join the war late like Mussolini does in Footprint of Mussolini.
 
He could be neutral, or join the war late like Mussolini does in Footprint of Mussolini.
Yeah, 'made that cooperation impossible' does allow for neutrality. If he joins the war late, it even allows him to be one of the Allies, since he'd be cooperating later, not right then. Alternatively, he might join the war in the middle, when it looks like the Allies will lose, only to have the USA join the Allies after that.
 
Honestly, I see him staying neutral simply because he gets more for little cost by remaining neutral. Both sides will make him all kinds of offers, maybe even some down payments, and he can see who is winning all the while.
 
Honestly, I see him staying neutral simply because he gets more for little cost by remaining neutral. Both sides will make him all kinds of offers, maybe even some down payments, and he can see who is winning all the while.
Maybe. That also has the advantage (Doylistly) that it allows for his form of fascism to not be discredited, which appears to be the case from some of the excerpts.
 
I expect Italy to remain neutral. Sanna seems like a much less impulsive, less gloryhound, and overall more cunning creature than Mussolini.

German troops march into the Rhineland on Bastille Day, and France does fuck-all. I wonder if the Blum ministry will be more enduring iTTL and/or how much right-wing activism and outright terrorism is happening in France.
 
Sanna seems like a much less impulsive, less gloryhound, and overall more cunning creature than Mussolini.
That's a low bar to be fair.

Maybe. That also has the advantage (Doylistly) that it allows for his form of fascism to not be discredited, which appears to be the case from some of the excerpts.
Exactly. It also enables him to avoid making the mistakes of his predecessors and getting involved in a war that Italy might not have a part in fighting.
 
Part 5-11 Naval History
…The first matter of discussion at the Second Wilmington Naval Conference was the inclusion of Germany into the treaty system. The Anglo-German Naval Agreement had effectively placed Germany within the system, therefore it was argued that they might as well be included in the conference itself. The British were in favor of this, the French were opposed and almost everyone else was neutral on the matter. In the end the French decided to cave on the matter, in exchange for loopholing in a few extra ships in the unregulated miscellaneous category…

…It was clear from the beginning of the conference that their could be no extension of the building holiday, the lesser powers with the exception of Spain and the Netherlands were all laying down new ships, Britain was as well and the United States and Japan were preparing to. Reduction of total tonnages was similarly a non-starter, a proposal to reduce by one ninth would leave Britain too short on ships for her requirements, while neither the US nor Japan were willing to do so.

Instead it was proposed by Britain that the individual limits on Battleships be reduced to 40,000 tons and 15” guns and the limitations on aircraft carriers to 25,000 tons. This would reduce the individual cost of each unit and keep the capability gap between the large units the US and Japan wanted to build, and the smaller units the UK needed for global coverage minimal.

The lesser powers at the conference agreed to the UK proposal, as it made things easier for them, though the Italians would have to lie on the size of their planned 15” battleships. The US was willing to agree with the carrier proposal, as their carriers under construction were 25,100 tons and only needed to shave a bit off. The US was also willing to agree to the 40,000 ton limitation for battleships, as they felt they could design an acceptable battleship on that tonnage with certain compromises. They were not however willing to drop the 16” limit, given their lack of a 15” gun and the development of a newer 16” design underway. Given the presence of so may 16” ships already, 14 US, 8 Japanese, 6 British and 1 Soviet, this revision was agreed to.

The problem soon proved to be Japan. Japan was willing to agree, provided their “legitimate concerns” were addressed. Namely that because Japan had only 4 ships above the 40,000 ton limit, compared to 10 each for the US and UK, and by lesser amounts, Japan should get a tonnage increase to 630,000 tons, or 70% of the bigger powers to compensate. They further wanted an increase in cruiser and destroyer limits to 200,000, 160,000, 120,000 and 160,000 tons for A, B, and C class cruisers and destroyers respectively, to account for their increased requirements due to their ongoing support of the “legitimate Chinese government” based in Manchuria.

This was completely unacceptable to the United States, as it would make achieving an acceptable force ratio against Japan in the Pacific far too difficult. The US delegation thus flat out refused to compromise on this matter. Given this choice they would settle for a simple renewal of the total and individual ship tonnage limits of the previous conference.

The US found itself surprisingly isolated on this. Italy quickly backed the Japanese proposal in a diplomatic quid pro quo for recognition of Ethiopia. This was followed by Germany, who saw no case where they might be fighting Japan and would prefer the lower limits set out to save money for the Army and Air Force. Spain supported the Japanese proposal for a similar reasons, they were never going to fight Japan and smaller ship sizes thus made the smaller ships they could afford more competitive.

The really surprising part was that France and the Netherlands, both of whom were worried about potential Japanese aggression against their colonial possessions, were considering Japan’s position and that Britain was not dismissing it out of hand despite the IJN being the RN’s premier threat. The former two were well aware that they could not fight the Japanese on their own, and expected to have British help, making Japan stronger was seen as outweighed by making the smaller ships they planned to build more competitive. The British, with the most direct contact with the Japanese were worried about a failure of the treaty system, given the tone of the Japanese negotiators. If the Japanese withdrew that would mean an expensive naval race at the time expansion to the RAF and British Army was eating the budget. Strengthening Japan was thus seen as the lesser evil provided it remained substantially weaker than Britain.

The British, French and Dutch thus began working on a counter proposal, that they hoped would get the Japanese to agree while still being less than what they demanded. Namely from 70% in Capital Ships and 80% in lesser units, they hoped to try 67% or 65% and 75%. This along with a united front might be enough for the US to agree, and thus the treaty system to be salvaged. Failure of course would see the Japanese leave and the treaty system break down…

…The planned compromise was soon overtaken by events. Namely the outbreak of the civil war in Spain saw the Spanish delegation divided, with the military side supporting the Burgos government while the civilian side supported the Madrid government. This led to the suspension of the Spanish delegation and the exit of Spain from the Treaty system…

…The Spanish distraction extended negotiations over a potential compromise long enough for fighting in China to heat up again as the government of Inner Mongolia violently asserted its autonomy against the KMT with Japanese aid in Chahar and Suiyuan provinces. This seeming aggression on the part of a Japanese proxy saw the British, Dutch and French delegations forced by PR to abandon their support of a compromise. The 40,000 ton reduction was thus taken off the table.

However the Japanese remained adamant about an increase in lighter units due to their “legitimate security concerns in supporting the legitimate Chinese government,”. This was of course unacceptable to the US, or now the British, French and Dutch. The Japanese government thus left the conference for “failing to address their legitimate security concerns,” effectively sealing the end of the Treaty system…

…In an effort to salvage something the remaining powers agreed to continue to abide by the overall tonnage limits and individual ship limits as long as Japan did, and to make no more than the “minimum necessary” diversions to match the Japanese…

…The failure of the Second Wilmington Naval Conference saw the functional end of the interwar Naval Arms control system, and with it the experiment in multilateral arms control it represented. Never again would voluntary arms limitations agreements involving multiple nations occur…

-Excerpt from Naval History Between the Wars, Harper & Brothers, New York, 2007
 
That compromise looked like a decent one, so close.... I wonder, had the SCW and Second Sino-Japanese War started a few months later, how long would the treaties have lasted?
 
…The failure of the Second Wilmington Naval Conference saw the functional end of the interwar Naval Arms control system, and with it the experiment in multilateral arms control it represented. Never again would voluntary arms limitations agreements involving multiple nations occur
No SALT treaties. Oh shit.
 
I honestly wonder how many Yamato class battleships Japan will be able to build before the west figures out that they aren't sticking to the treaty.
 
I honestly wonder how many Yamato class battleships Japan will be able to build before the west figures out that they aren't sticking to the treaty.
If the dice rolls favorably, a long time after the dust settles and beyond relevancy. If you look at a side by side comparison of the OTL Yamato and its contemporaries the physical dimensions aren't that much bigger (and the differences being even less obvious if using photos from aerial photo recon). You can hide a lot of displacement withn various tricks. The cannons themselves could be given different names to imply smaller sizes (which was what Japan did OTL for their 460mm 406mm "special")
 
Having binged this over the past few days, I must say, this is quite an engrossing timeline. Given the premise, I think it strikes a good balance between similarity and difference when compared to OTL. The future that's constantly hinted at is both dark and intriguing.

The few issues I have with TTL are minor in comparison. Mostly I find the fate of the USSR to be a bit too convergent so far; as implausible as Hitler's rise to power might seem, that of Stalin is about as contingent. It's also the less interesting road to take in my opinion.

But speaking of the Bolsheviks, what has become of Trotsky's posthumous opposition movement? The fact that he's associated with TTL's equivalent of the Kronstadt mutiny is rather ironic; still, such a united Left Communism ought to be slightly more substantive than any OTL equivalents, especially as Stalin's USSR discredits itself more and more. In general, it seems the International Left isn't too prominent by TTL's present day, at least given the lack of a socialist perspective in the historiography provided. Or maybe that's exclusive to the US, and the anti-communism of its historians is a response to greater successes elsewhere. I guess we'll see.
 
Having binged this over the past few days, I must say, this is quite an engrossing timeline. Given the premise, I think it strikes a good balance between similarity and difference when compared to OTL. The future that's constantly hinted at is both dark and intriguing.

The few issues I have with TTL are minor in comparison. Mostly I find the fate of the USSR to be a bit too convergent so far; as implausible as Hitler's rise to power might seem, that of Stalin is about as contingent. It's also the less interesting road to take in my opinion.

But speaking of the Bolsheviks, what has become of Trotsky's posthumous opposition movement? The fact that he's associated with TTL's equivalent of the Kronstadt mutiny is rather ironic; still, such a united Left Communism ought to be slightly more substantive than any OTL equivalents, especially as Stalin's USSR discredits itself more and more. In general, it seems the International Left isn't too prominent by TTL's present day, at least given the lack of a socialist perspective in the historiography provided. Or maybe that's exclusive to the US, and the anti-communism of its historians is a response to greater successes elsewhere. I guess we'll see.
I'll admit things are more convergent than they should be, this TL is really notes I had from 3 TLs awkwardly shoehorned together, so I needed to drive things a certain way, most importantly the first of those was a WWI TL, the Second was a Pacific War TL, so I needed to set up for the latter despite changes that should arguably come from the former

I'm trying to balance hints about the future without giving the whole game away, though that will become obvious eventually
 
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