Here are some flag drafts - the most important one being that of the Union of Equals, what do you think:
uoeflagworkshop018ckn2.png


Based on this design, my favourite for the Finnish Federative Republic would be this:
flagfinnishfederative5jj4a.png

A version with the lion could roughly look like this.
flagfinnishfederativer7k94.png
P.S.: I realized I should have created a shadow or drawn a line around the Finnish ones because, well, otherwise it's white on white here. Anyway, just drafts.
 
Kaiser Billy screwed that one up. It's looking like Poland will get more western territory than OTL, especially since Pilsudski is discredited and the recognized Polish government is sitting in Poznan.
 
On my iPad screen it is definitely not white on white. More like white on... very light grey? I like the flags but rectancular Coat of arms on last flag... I am not so sure.
 
On my iPad screen it is definitely not white on white. More like white on... very light grey? I like the flags but rectancular Coat of arms on last flag... I am not so sure.
Yeah, I didn't particularly Like that one, either, but could not pin the problem down. Thanks! More like a shield form?
 
Kaiser Billy screwed that one up.
Yes, AGAIN. I was in the middle of writing Germany onto its path of reform and pragmatic diplomacy when I realized, hey, what is Billy going to say to all this, and from the previous decades of his reign, it felt that he simply had to say something dangerously stupid, something proud and brainless and utterly undiplomatic. Everything else would have been out of character. And, hey, as so often in Wilhelmine Germany, while half the country is embarrassed and wants to get rid of him, the other half loves him for just this. Even when they have just been demonstrated so thoroughly where all this leads.
It's looking like Poland will get more western territory than OTL, especially since Pilsudski is discredited and the recognized Polish government is sitting in Poznan.
They can get a bit more If they don't screw up, too.
 
Like the UoE flag! I'll let Finns deliberate over the Finnish flag. The Red base of the UoE flag is a definitive break from the Tsarist look, which is good. Not sure the stars should be green but there needs to be some green somewhere I think; the sun should definitely be gold. The alternating sinuous rays might be a bit much for flagmakers but hey, not nearly as tricky as say lion emblems, and it definitely helps for the sun not to have just angular triangular rays for a nice organic look; a simpler sun would look too much like the ROC flag of OTL. Mind, I think the Reds would want a little more and such symbols as hammer and plow (former ambiguous between SR/Narodniks and Social Democrats, the latter clearly underscoring the peasant majority's predominance, though that could be done with more OTL symbols the Communists appropriated such as wheat sheaves of course) might fit in well, but alas we don't want it to be too busy!

Searching for Narodnik symbols myself I found an image of clasped hands in an oval (with words around it, something the Bolsheviks in the Revolutionary/Civil War period were somewhat addicted to--but I think verbal slogans will be points of contention and so agreeing to disagree involves omitting them, just as well). And an intriguing reference to the folklore witch figure Baba Yaga--her symbolism involves a house on chicken legs (it walks around) and she flies around in a mortar steered or propelled or something with her hands on the pestle. But I can't say that would resonate.

One fact about the February Revolution OTL, carrying over here as pre-POD, is that the actual insurrection was triggered by women protested lack of bread in Petrograd. So perhaps this carries over among the SRs, and thus encouraging less Leninist-disciplined radical Social Democrats too, to take a strong feminist line that might get Baba Yaga or other Russian peasant feminine imagery carried over. The way Western stories carry over Russian folktales, Baba Yaga is a scary figure, but maybe that is exactly what strong Russian women's movements would want--a quasi-matriarchal vibe in Russian peasant culture, which I think the Bolsheviks did capitalize on a bit. While largely shoving women into auxiliary roles in practice, but honoring them in theory--much as the cosmonaut program would eventually launch one token woman into orbit before the Americans had gotten one man up there, then not again until Sally Ride's first-American-astronaut-woman mission was scheduled, and they quickly sent up the second woman into space in the early 1980s twenty years later--and the men in the Salyut space station her mission joined gave her the traditional woman's greeting gift of an apron--for in Soviet society as it developed OTL, women worked two shifts; on paper, they were exact equals of men and supposed to work full factory shifts, and on paper their traditional household duties were to have been supplanted by communal rationalized centrally organized institutional organization, with individuals designated as cooks and cleaners and everyone eating from central kitchens cafeteria style, central baby creches and so forth--but a) the regime always skimped on actually providing these dormitory facilities, it was always "build the factory first, then later we'll get around to the worker housing," by which time the workers had long ago improvised primitive, largely traditional lodgings of some sort, and b) nobody actually liked the idealized Communist central living options and took every chance they could get for individual household kitchens, cleaning, raising their own babies, etc. (And the highly pro-regime Bolshevik novel Tsement, "Cement" in English, was actually kind of blood curdling in how they presented the idealized good Bolsheviks handing their kids over to centralized care--the kids do not prosper, they suffer badly from neglect, and somehow this is a good thing, for it shows the parents were dedicated revolutionaries unmoved by bourgeois sentimentality and accepted the suffering of their children as part of the sacrifices of building the new worker's order!) So in reality, Soviet housing turned into separate family dwellings, as much as possible, and guess who did all the housework? Not most of it--all of it. No second shift of domestic maintenance for male "comrades!" Eventually, after the collapse of the USSR, an interesting memoir by a young left wing Tejana (Latina Texan that is) American published in the mid 2000s called Around the Bloc, about her travels in post-Communist Russia, Cuba and the PRC, described an incident where she is hanging with some Russian women and they are bustling around cleaning and cooking and so on while the man of the house sits around being waited on, and when this young American with US feminist sensibilities asks them why they don't try to get Vasily to get up and help them at least a little, they explain while vigorously working, "Because...he's...incompetent!" So apparently just by responding to any desperate pleas to please help a little bit by screwing up the housework royally, Russian men exempt themselves whenever there is a woman around to do it all for them. The Soviet regime of OTL never really addressed this apparently. Hence the highly insulting aspect, as I interpret anyway, of the "gift" of the apron to that second woman cosmonaut!

So perhaps one effect of the multiparty split of power will be for women of several major tendencies, including both revolutionary branches, the SRs and the SDs, to hive off strongly feminist chapters of their respective movements and gain some serious electoral and other political clout for some serious feminism. Hence my wondering whether Baba Yaga imagery might turn up, if not on the national flag, then anyway somewhere in UoE political culture. Or some other strong female imagery?

Certainly I think if the UoE were ever in straits comparable to the OTL USSR under Nazi attack, we would definitely see lots of women fighters; OTL they did all sorts of things--snipers, fighter pilots, night bombers, tank operators. I remember glancing at some BBC documentary made in the '70s, World At War I believe it was called, and seeing translated accounts narrated by female Red Army generals.

OTOH, the universal conscription for Soviet military service (mostly Red Army, some to Navy and other services, and while in theory the service was universal there were "soft" postings reserved for Party privileged people's offspring and promising rising Komsomols and so on that were much less brutal than standard Red Army stints) was universal manhood service; between major wars women were not generally wanted quite so much, though I suppose that until Western forces started allowing women to serve more comprehensively between the 1970s and 2000 it was still more women in Soviet bloc forces than in Western ones, and with a lot less concentration of them into clerical and medical service almost exclusively.

I know that at least some of the OTL Left SRs in brief alliance with the Bolsheviks for a year or so after the October Revolution were women, including some chief leaders, but I don't know how typical or atypical they were.

Weeks ago I tried to start formulating a general response to the thread focused on the USA scene, and it turned into rather monstrous recounting of pre-POD US political factions. I wanted to stress strongly that OTL, prior to the POD, way back in the later 1880s and early '90s, the US People's Party was in fact in some communication with Russian Narodniks, and took some rather sophisticated ideas from some of the Narodnik intellectuals, such as a scheme for formulating a new basis for US money based on government warehouses accepting delivery of various commodities--agricultural produce, metal ores (miners being part of the Populist coalition) and basing the value of the dollar on the basket of goods produced by US industry across the board. (The eventual "free silver" platform championed by William Jennings Bryan in his successive failed bids to become the second Democrat after Grover Cleveland elected President since the Civil War was a grotesquely dumbed down version of the actual People's Party platform on money).

My more recent searches for Narodnik symbols confirmed what I suspected--the straight Russian to English translation of Narodnik is in fact--"populist." Note that that word did not exist in English until the People's Party coined it to describe themselves, and they may well have simply been taking the Russian word literally.

Suffice it to say, I don't think the USA will be quite identical to OTL in the 1920s. To an extent, the Red Scare of OTL was one of those things where if the Bolsheviks did not exist, people like Wilson and Comstock and that advertising guru Wilson hired to run US WWI propaganda would have invented them--but the reality of the hard Leninist line I think gave Wilson and his Republican successors leverage they might lack if the face of revolutionary Russia is more plural and less unequivocally scary. The fact is, the multiple UoE factions will find many American counterparts, and something like a revival of the old People's Party program, hopefully updated to be more inclusive of at least sectors of less agricultural interests, would be in the cards, as in fact the early 1890s heyday of the People's Party itself is well in living memory, and here their Russian counterparts have made something more or less great of themselves. The diversity of the American left in various somewhat mutually exclusive but also vaguely fellow-traveling forms might serve to undercut the legitimacy of sweeping repression, and call forms of repression that were accepted by leading elites with little comment OTL into more controversial question, and permit local bastions of various factions--agrarian neo-Populists,but also more Social Democratic or more radical still (Wobblies that is Industrial Workers of the World, and yes some Leninists, some Trotskyists and some followers of yet other OTL Bolshevik leaders who in the ATL run various splinters of the far left of the UoE SD movement, also non-Marxist anarchists and syndicalists) taking some root in various communities. The more extremely revolutionary will be repressed piecemeal, but the less overtly extreme or more cannily opportunistic might well put down roots, elect some Congressmembers, run towns and even bid for control of, or anyway established minority presence (based on strongholds where they are not minorties) in various state governments and perhaps with several such states neighboring, regions.

As someone deeply interested in electoral reform, I can also point out that these early decades of the 20th century involved the adoption of Single Transferable Vote in many city governments, and while as a rather radical advocate of what I call "positive representation" I have some quarrels with STV, it certainly closely approaches what I consider proper proportional representation. It involves ranked choice voting, the same as one uses in Instant Runoff (advocates of which seem lately OTL to be avoiding that once-popular label) but as it elects multiple members in larger districts instead of just one in each, the practical dynamics are quite different. But the electoral mechanism is the same. STV cities grew in number OTL until reaching a peak in the 1940s, then a concerted campaign to shut it down on the claim it was "Communist" somehow largely swept it away. While it operated though, voters on the whole seemed quite capable of handling the ranked choice votes to their advantage, and the outcomes were greater diversity--multiple parties, and also much closer to proportional representation of ethnic and "racial" groups.

So I have to wonder too--can the poorer "grounds" for repression in the USA, as the UoE is less terrifying objectively and harder to spin as some sort of sweeping existential threat, lead to even more widespread and accelerated adoption of STV voting in reformist or semi-revolutionary bailiwicks, perhaps as the established two parties realize they are in grave danger of being pushed out by new parties claiming "majority" rule on grounds as spurious as the mainstream old parties were accustomed to, and caving in to STV reform as a way of preventing themselves from being sidelined completely? STV with 3 representatives per district actually tends to reinforce a two party system--not as strongly as either our current FPTP single choice to elect one rep per district does, or as IRV still tends to do, but pretty strongly gives the upper hand to parties able to muster more than 1/4 of the whole vote, and rather slim opportunities for those not commanding at least a fifth or more. So the devil is in the details, but I would think that if a partial form of proportional representation can be introduced, eventually the electorate will demand more effective PR.

So perhaps, STV can move beyond city government, and become the means of electing some state legislatures and perhaps even state senates. And in this era, unless some special ATL judicial or national-political reaction moves to block it with ATL early measures, nothing stops a state apportioned multiple Representatives to Congress from electing them with STV too. In Australia, hundreds of offices are currently filled in systemwide races in some states or Territories there, or states with big apportionments can create a few large districts for smaller numbers of seats, say 5-7, while many states apportioned more moderate numbers in that range--anything from 2 to 9 or so--can hold them statewide at large. OTL, the US Supreme Court refused to get involved in such matters until the 1950s and '60s, until then holding that state electoral systems were matters for state courts and state politics, and all Federal offices are in fact elected by the various states. Nowadays, a combination of case law and Congressional statue forbid anything but single member district elections for the House of Representatives, but that is not embedded explicitly in the Constitution. So it would be possible, if STV is popular enough, for some states to elect their Representatives that way, and perhaps eventually for a national reform bandwagon to mandate it across the country. (This would leave states with single representatives in effect forced to use IRV, and I can see eventual challenges on equal protection grounds, but perhaps the response to that would be to argue House races are truly national and not properly state at all, and devise ways for votes to be consolidated across state lines, or even nationally--which would lead to what I call positive representation).

I actually have a different approach to PR I much prefer, but as noted, OTL STV had a bandwagon going in these decades, and so it is the best bet for a serious ATL approach to US proportional representation. One grounds it would be opposed on, quite frankly and openly in these pre-Cold War, pre-Civil Rights movement days, would be racist--if STV is in place, as noted, if African Americans and other "minorities" are allowed to vote equally, they can and probably will get their own representatives elected. Not just African Americans of course--Asians in various cities and the far western states, Native Americans in states like New Mexico and Arizona, Latinos in the southern border tiers of states, urban ethnic concentrations in the various big cities notably in the Northeast and Midwest. A lot of things in OTL history have been attributed to efforts to keep these groups out. So I would expect progress, as I see it, on this front to happen in places that are already pretty progressive. But it might be a surprising pattern--in the Jim Crow South, where African Americans are entering a particularly dark chapter (at least OTL, and I fear it would be utopian to hope for much relief in the ATL though I do think, as with possibly feminists in the UoE, they might have some leverage to get some bastions of relative safety or respect in some places, perhaps even in places in the South--overall I think proper comprehensive Civil Rights will wait a generation or two, but perhaps have more traction to be less token, limited and reversible in practice than OTL when that day does come) exclusion of AA from voting, Constitution be damned (Reconstruction Amendments forbid this from being done by direct mention of race, and also give Congress remedies to penalize states that manage by some subterfuge to disfranchise large portions of their adult citizen population, I assume that in the USA by now women are also Constitutionally enfranchised by Amendment). In such states, perhaps reformist movements understood to benefit "whites only" lock in voting and other formats that in later years when AA and other minority voting rights are enforced prove too popular to be reversed just to minimize African American voting impact, not with Civil Rights movements with teeth watching anyway.

So I'm just putting all that out there as possible groundwork for a later harvest of much more deeply established effective democracy in the USA, without the Bolshevik Red scare stick to beat all reformists with. Sure there will be some kind of anti-radical reaction, I'm suggesting though it that cannot be as sweeping or effective with Russian diversity mirroring American diversity.
 
mf8nwgf.png

Like so, with darker hue of blue at the top?
This could be the Presidential Standard, with the non-heraldic "plain" blue-and-white sun emblem serving as the official flag.

Edit: I also realized that with design there would be uniformity in the western member state flags of the UoE: Blue-and-white in Finland, red-and-white in Poland, and blue-and-yellow in Ukraine.
 
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@Shevek23
what a wonderful post - I am so glad to have you among my readers on this thread, too!
I will have to take some time to write a proper reply, so it will probably take until next week. Lots of excellent suggestions!
 
Like so, with darker hue of blue at the top?
This could be the Presidential Standard, with the non-heraldic "plain" blue-and-white sun emblem serving as the official flag.

Edit: I also realized that with design there would be uniformity in the western member state flags of the UoE: Blue-and-white in Finland, red-and-white in Poland, and blue-and-yellow in Ukraine.
This looks awesome. I'll change the hue of the blue in a second. Good idea about the Presidential Standard.
Also, awesome idea about the Western republics, but I'm not sure what the Poles of TTL's 1918 would think about your idea ;-)
 
@Shevek23
what a wonderful post - I am so glad to have you among my readers on this thread, too!
I will have to take some time to write a proper reply, so it will probably take until next week. Lots of excellent suggestions!
Been reading it a while; as I said I tried responding several times but kept bogging down in lots of opinionated "background" on stuff USA history buffs would probably already know anyway. And I do have electoral wonkiness on the brain these past few years.

But you do have an interesting ATL going here; I am grateful!
 
Thanks for the very informative response (and belated thanks for the response on German federalism).
Interestingly, though, this is the order of things of OTL, too.A land reform, meaning what you explained, was legislated in 1921 (although landowners were compensated through a national fund and implementation was super-slow - Romanian wiki page here), while the eight-hour workday didn't happen until communist times.
Fascinating. I didn't think you made it up, but I found it surprising.
There is a reason for that...
IOW, strength versus strength giving a decisive result, as opposed to weakness versus weakness, where not much happens.
 
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I like the state flag and yes the lion bring a lot of aristocratic feeling but it seem also a big symbol of Finnish nationalism so i think that while some will not like it the greater part of the population will accept it
 
Like the UoE flag! I'll let Finns deliberate over the Finnish flag. The Red base of the UoE flag is a definitive break from the Tsarist look, which is good.
I'm glad the UoE flag draft seems to be generally popular :)

Not sure the stars should be green but there needs to be some green somewhere I think
I wasn't sure about the green stars, either, but I thought, too, that the flag needed green. (Just consider the thread's title...) And also, the SR party emblem does have green stars.

The alternating sinuous rays might be a bit much for flagmakers but hey, not nearly as tricky as say lion emblems
Yes, I think so, too. The flag, without the green stars, was one of the propositions for the flag of Macedonia in the 1990s IOTL.

More leftist symbols would really make the flag look chaotic, I have tried a number of possibilities and didn't like either of them. Also, it gets utterly messy in the small version for the federative republics. But hammer, plough and sheaves of wheat as well as the clasped hands could certainly work for specific state institutions... I'm specifically thinking about a flag for the supreme soviet, or maybe for the Inter-Soviet Office of Mutual Aid, which has a mighty career ahead of it as the country's most important source of credit...

Regarding women and feminism

Much of the mix of factors which led to a number of impressive female leaders to emerge across all revolutionary socialist parties in Russia between 1917 and the early 1920s can probably be summed up as a general breakdown of old cultural models, which often opens up vast possibilities for a short time, especially when an ideological movement with close ties to early feminist thinking such as the various schools of socialism were is on the rise. When the Soviet system stabilised itself IOTL, some progress towards gender equality was certainly permanently achieved (and this applied to some extent even to other Eastern Bloc nations - hell, even today, creche places are more easily available in the Eastern half of Germany than in the West, owing to much earlier widespread childcare facilities and general female employment in the GDR when compared to the FRG), but in other domains, windows closed again, especially when it comes to political leadership.

To some extent, I think it would stretch the boundaries of plausibility to expect this to be entirely different ITTL. The social and political transformation is less ruptural and less traumatic ITTL, which also means we shouldn't expect extremely fast and extremely deep cultural transformations. Catherina Brezhkovskaya, the "grandmother of the revolution", has been mentioned as the chairwoman of the Constituent Assembly of the UoE, and I may have plans for the future of the much younger Irina Spiridonova from the left wing of the SRs. But, as the dust of the revolution will settle, there's no escaping the realization that patriarchy is still deeply entrenched in Russian society, like in most others at that point in time. I expect the first Russian dumas to end most of the LEGAL discrimination against women. As for social mores, who does the unpaid housework, childcare etc., I am not quite so optimistic...

I know that at least some of the OTL Left SRs in brief alliance with the Bolsheviks for a year or so after the October Revolution were women, including some chief leaders, but I don't know how typical or atypical they were.
Typical, but not representative, I would say. The same goes for the Bolsheviks, too, just think of Alexandra Kollontai...
Now, pluralist democracy will mean lots of tendencies will be able to freely express themselves. From there to setting the country's agenda, it's a long march, though.

As far as culture is concerned, one thing I'm particularly trying to wrap my head around is how, if something akin to OTL's "Roaring Twenties" happens ITTL, too, such cultural changes are going to interplay in Russia and other UoE member states with the more homegrown transformations.

Weeks ago I tried to start formulating a general response to the thread focused on the USA scene, and it turned into rather monstrous recounting of pre-POD US political factions.
That is always welcome; my grasp of the US situation is not very comprehensive.

I wanted to stress strongly that OTL, prior to the POD, way back in the later 1880s and early '90s, the US People's Party was in fact in some communication with Russian Narodniks, and took some rather sophisticated ideas from some of the Narodnik intellectuals
I know. Some sort of New Populism in the 1920s and 1930s is definitely on my list of things to conceptualise. I'm still collecting inspirations for a manifesto I'll have the Finnish Maalaisliitto leader, Santeri Alkio, write in 1919. How all of this could play out in the US is very, very difficult for me to imagine, but I'm curious about it, too. Push for electoral and administrative reform may indeed be part of it - in the UoE, there are tendencies to radicalise the "Primary" system, for example, as we have already discussed in this thread, so maybe this strengthens reform tendencies back in the US, too... but I'm honestly not deep enough into US politics of that time to tell. I would be absolutely delighted to receive a guest contribution from you on any US-related topic, though, if you're interested?!!

My more recent searches for Narodnik symbols confirmed what I suspected--the straight Russian to English translation of Narodnik is in fact--"populist." Note that that word did not exist in English until the People's Party coined it to describe themselves, and they may well have simply been taking the Russian word literally
Indeed. I am trying to avoid the word as much as possible ITTL, primarily because of the connotations it has acquired over the past decades, at least in Europe. In Romanian, for example, there is the world "populism", which means roughly what German "Populismus" also means, i.e. "a political style or tendency which lays blame for everything on hazily-defined "elites" and claims to represent the interests of "ordinary folks", while not really doing anything against inequality, oligarchy etc. and often worsens the situation for unpopular minorities, even if the latter are by no means "the elites"". And then there is the word "poporanism", which is the historical translation of Russian "Narodnichestvo" and only used to denote a historical political movement in Romania in the last decades of the 19th and into the early 20th century.
At least ITTL, the Partidul Taranesc in Romania will probably not cease to view itself as "poporanist"...

To an extent, the Red Scare of OTL was one of those things where if the Bolsheviks did not exist, people like Wilson and Comstock and that advertising guru Wilson hired to run US WWI propaganda would have invented them
.... which is why I have them undertake a witch-hunt against a differently denominated enemy in TTL's 1919. I'm not yet exactly sure of the exact label - "anarchists" has been at the top of my list for a while, but I have a few developments in Italy and probably also in Germany on my mind which might give it a new twist.

but the less overtly extreme or more cannily opportunistic might well put down roots, elect some Congressmembers, run towns and even bid for control of, or anyway established minority presence (based on strongholds where they are not minorties) in various state governments and perhaps with several such states neighboring, regions.
Any suggestions where and who could achieve that are more than welcome...

I am not very familiar with STV, but if you want to do something with it, then by all means you're more than welcome to flesh out something (perhaps an electoral coverage in a newspaper? but it might still be a few years in the future, if I understand you right...)
 
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