F-117s for the RAF?

A recent posting on the UK Defence Journal states that Reagan explicitly offered the British government the chance to partner on the F-117 program in 1986. They declined.

If the British had instead participated, what might have resulted from it? What gets cut in order to pay for it? Less Tornados? Less spending on other branches? Reduced participation in the Eurofighter program?

What might be the operational history? Presumably it would be similar to the USAF's use -- the Gulf War, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan.

Would British Night Hawks still be flying today? It seems unlikely, given that the US has been done with theirs since 2008, but I suppose the question is worth considering.
 
With RAF seeing that stealth actually works from 1st hand, probably the boxy Eurofighter takes a major punch in the chin? I know that tasks are not the same for those two A/C. The Jaguar gets an earlier retirement (too bad, I like the Jag), same for Bucc?
 
The RAF turned down the offer because by 1995 they saw the F-117 a pretty much obsolete technology. BAE and the MOD had already proved to the Americans that they understood 'stealth technology' enough to construct their own deep strike aircraft with a comparable level of low observability to the B-2, with the REPLICA program.
If they had wanted such a narrow focus aircraft as the F-117 they would have used the REPLICA program to produce a much superior plane. Instead the RAF wanted in on the Americans next generation fighter program, then known as JSF, they used REPLICA to gain an advantageous position in the program, hoping to get enough of a say in it that it is best suited to their needs.

However as we know, the JSF became the biggest defense spending blackhole in history, and the RAF got very little input. Mostly being used by the USMC to promote the VTOL version in their bid to get aircraft carriers for themselves.

With RAF seeing that stealth actually works from 1st hand, probably the boxy Eurofighter takes a major punch in the chin? I know that tasks are not the same for those two A/C. The Jaguar gets an earlier retirement (too bad, I like the Jag), same for Bucc?

The RAF already knew how low observability worked, REPLICA proved that to the Americans. They also knew enough that going all out stealth compromised air to air combat effectiveness, whihc is why the EAS and then Typhoon where not designed with it in mind, as they were always intended to be pure high performance interceptors. The Typhoon does have some low observable design aspects as well as RAM coating, but nothing was permitted to compromise air to air performance.


In fact the whole idea that the Americans discovered 'stealth', is also wrong. The initial theoretical work on low radar observability was done in the Soviet Union, and the soviet militarily was well aware how all the techniques that went in the American 'stealth' aircraft worked. However they did not consider it's drawbacks worth for use on fighter or strike aircraft. And did not have the money to invest in a fleet of LO strategic bombers like the USAF's B-2s.
 
The RAF turned down the offer because by 1995 they saw the F-117 a pretty much obsolete technology.

While the rest of your points are valid, I'm referring to the offer of 1986, not the offer of the "F-117C" in 1995. In 1986 the Nighthawk was a considerably less obsolete technology.
 
While the rest of your points are valid, I'm referring to the offer of 1986, not the offer of the "F-117C" in 1995. In 1986 the Nighthawk was a considerably less obsolete technology.

86 seems a little late, it was already operational by then.
 
I imagine that even back then the F-117 looked to be an aircraft with too limited focus for the UK to be able to afford. They were much better served by the Tornado which could fulfill far more roles even it wasn't as capable at single target deep strike as the F-117.
 
There was no much of multi-role in Tornado IDS, Jaguar, Bucc in the 1980s, apart from capability (when realized) to carry anti-ship missile.

The RAF already knew how low observability worked, REPLICA proved that to the Americans. They also knew enough that going all out stealth compromised air to air combat effectiveness, whihc is why the EAS and then Typhoon where not designed with it in mind, as they were always intended to be pure high performance interceptors. The Typhoon does have some low observable design aspects as well as RAM coating, but nothing was permitted to compromise air to air performance.

The aircraft with slanted sides and tail, curvy air passage(s) to the engine and other tweaks towards low observability will not be 'compromising the air to air performance', but improving them since it will make enemy radras less effective. BTW - on the Eurofighter we don't see the movable nozzles, not 2D let alone 3D, so I'd say that permitted compromising the A-to-A performance.


In fact the whole idea that the Americans discovered 'stealth', is also wrong. The initial theoretical work on low radar observability was done in the Soviet Union, and the soviet militarily was well aware how all the techniques that went in the American 'stealth' aircraft worked. However they did not consider it's drawbacks worth for use on fighter or strike aircraft. And did not have the money to invest in a fleet of LO strategic bombers like the USAF's B-2s.

Nobody claimed that USA invented stealth. They came out with stelath aircraft, that counts very much in the real world.
Let's also not pretend that mis-steps in procurement of military hardware were just happening in the USA, nor that what other countries did was the next best thing since canned beer.
 
The aircraft with slanted sides and tail, curvy air passage(s) to the engine and other tweaks towards low observability will not be 'compromising the air to air performance', but improving them since it will make enemy radras less effective. BTW - on the Eurofighter we don't see the movable nozzles, not 2D let alone 3D, so I'd say that permitted compromising the A-to-A performance.

From memory that's just because nobody wants to pay the money for the development of it, the consortium has been floating it for years now I thought.
 
There was no much of multi-role in Tornado IDS, Jaguar, Bucc in the 1980s, apart from capability (when realized) to carry anti-ship missile.



The aircraft with slanted sides and tail, curvy air passage(s) to the engine and other tweaks towards low observability will not be 'compromising the air to air performance', but improving them since it will make enemy radras less effective. BTW - on the Eurofighter we don't see the movable nozzles, not 2D let alone 3D, so I'd say that permitted compromising the A-to-A performance.

I meant that no low observable features were used on the Eurofighter that would have compromised air to air performance. The lack of thrust vectoring nozzles doesn't come under that, and as another poster has said they weren't implemented due to lack of money.
Exterior shaping of an aircraft to create a low RCS very much does affect air to air performance. It reduces the maneuverability as the aerodynamic shaping in no longer completely optimal. The utility of very low RCS or 'stealth' in A2A combat is a highly debatable subject. Mostly dependent on the idea that volleys of BVR AAMs can be fired with good kill probabilities without alerting the targets. Given modern signal processing, and jamming technology this capability is suspect to say the least. Almost all air combat experience dictates that eventually the combatants come to the merge, and maneuverability in WVR dog fighting is critical.
Jamming is a far more effective solution to the problem of radar detection, it does not affect aircraft performance anywhere nearly as much, is effective in almost all conditions, and can be retrofitted and upgraded on existing aircraft, allowing even older aicraft designs to survive in modern environments.

RCS reduction is a materials engineering solution to an electronics problem. When materials science has to compete against electronics, electronics is going to win.
 
I meant that no low observable features were used on the Eurofighter that would have compromised air to air performance. The lack of thrust vectoring nozzles doesn't come under that, and as another poster has said they weren't implemented due to lack of money.

I agree that lack of money was a problem with European procurements, especially after ww2.
However, I'll not agree with your statement that Eurofighter was an 'uncompromised air-to-air machine' - it was not, due to high RCS and lack of thrust vectoring.

Exterior shaping of an aircraft to create a low RCS very much does affect air to air performance. It reduces the maneuverability as the aerodynamic shaping in no longer completely optimal. The utility of very low RCS or 'stealth' in A2A combat is a highly debatable subject. Mostly dependent on the idea that volleys of BVR AAMs can be fired with good kill probabilities without alerting the targets. Given modern signal processing, and jamming technology this capability is suspect to say the least. Almost all air combat experience dictates that eventually the combatants come to the merge, and maneuverability in WVR dog fighting is critical.

The stealth comes not only from exterior shaping and materials choosen, but also from LPI electronics and capability to carry ordnance within the aircraft. The Eurofighter carries ordnance outside, hence there is no remote possibility to be considered as a low-observable A/C.
There is nothing debatable in ability to be 'hidden' from Electronics means of surveilance. USA have had the money to back up the will do it, European countries lacked either money or will or both. Money was already spent on separate deveopment of Rafale, EF and Grippen, when Cold War ended.
Russia and India invested their money together in a low-observable fighter.

Jamming is a far more effective solution to the problem of radar detection, it does not affect aircraft performance anywhere nearly as much, is effective in almost all conditions, and can be retrofitted and upgraded on existing aircraft, allowing even older aicraft designs to survive in modern environments.

Those with money don't believe that just jamming is the answer to an offensive air service.

RCS reduction is a materials engineering solution to an electronics problem. When materials science has to compete against electronics, electronics is going to win.

As above - RCS reduction comes out from many factors, not just matrials choosen.
 
I agree that lack of money was a problem with European procurements, especially after ww2.
However, I'll not agree with your statement that Eurofighter was an 'uncompromised air-to-air machine' - it was not, due to high RCS and lack of thrust vectoring.

I didn't say Typhoon was totally undo promised, but rather that what low observable features were implemented on it (and it does actually have quite a few) were not permitted to compromise aerodynamic optimisation and high manuevrability of the airframe shaping.
The idea that you need to have thrust vectoring to be truly highly manuverable isn't really correct. Thrust vectoring is heavy and for some aircraft that have very good natural aerodynamic characteristics it s benefits do not outweigh thus weight penalty, or are at least do not enough to justify the extra expense and maintenance costs.
Aircraft like the F-22 which sacrificed a lot of aerodynamic optimisation for low observability shaping, have to use thrust vectoring to brute force their high manueverability. Even then the Typhoon is a superior close quarters combatant, especially during the merge to dog fighting where its manuever ability at supersonic speeds is exceptional.


The stealth comes not only from exterior shaping and materials choosen, but also from LPI electronics and capability to carry ordnance within the aircraft. The Eurofighter carries ordnance outside, hence there is no remote possibility to be considered as a low-observable A/C.
There is nothing debatable in ability to be 'hidden' from Electronics means of surveilance. USA have had the money to back up the will do it, European countries lacked either money or will or both. Money was already spent on separate deveopment of Rafale, EF and Grippen, when Cold War ended.
Russia and India invested their money together in a low-observable fighter.

LPI is only a temporary solution, and highly likely to be rendered inffective in a jamming heavy environment. increases in the effectiveness of onboard signal processing is likely to lead to the point where LPI simply isn't. Whilst straight jamming has far more life time potential than an RCS shaping + LPI combination.
You could improve the LPI but there is only so much that can be done, and the diminishing returns likely escalate quite quickly, and reach what is effectively a hard ceiling. However your opponent will likely always have access to more powerful hammers and better signal processors.

RCS reduction is of course useful for air combat, but once you start sacrificing aerodynamic performance for it, the costs start to outweigh the benefits. Unless of course you subscribe to the BVR + LPI godmode win strategy being viable.

Those with money don't believe that just jamming is the answer to an offensive air service.

Well that really depends, that statement was possibly somewhat true in the 90s and even early 2000s but subsequently that isn't true so much anymore. Even the USAF has started to push the once vaunted 'super stealth' F-35 as a forward electronic warfare platform.

The Russians effort has far less LO features than American designs and is very much about keeping aerodynamic capability. The Russians and the Europeans hugely invested in Jammng technology. As is the US Navy. The idea that the stealth costs more than jamming in development is also very wrong. The electronics required for jamming and signal processing is very high cost, and large amounts of money has been poured into that area. If the UK had wanted to it could have had an indigenous deep strike stealth aircraft by now. Money was not the issue, instead that a great deal of people outside the USAF were not on the BVR death spam hype train.

As for the Chinese, I'm uncertain exactly what they are up to. They appear to be following the late 90s American full stealth model. Whether that is because they believe it will be effective from their own research, or out of cargo cultism, I don't know.

Finally none of this to say that radical RCS reduction on aircraft is a universally a bad idea. It is a highly viable strategy for deep strike aircraft like the B-2. Just not really worth the costs for air combat.
 
I blame this on the USAF for calling the Wobbly Goblin a stealth fighter and assigning an F prefix to its number. When introduced, it could do amazing things like dropping guided munitions down into heavily guarded ventilator shafts at night without sustaining losses. If that's what you wanted to do, that was the bird to do it. For any other purpose, it's a whole new ballgame. Either the Brits didn't want that, or couldn't afford to do that, and besides, the Nighthawk lacks provision for tea.
 
If the British had instead participated, what might have resulted from it?
What does the Nighthawk give the British? Why would they want it?
It would give them very little industrial work so its mainly just spending £ in USA.
What capabilities does it give and are they worth UK having them rather than relying for them on USAF?

I just don't see why UK needs the numerically limited very specific top end capability it gives them at such a high cost, if Tornado cant hit it I think you may need USAF anyway?

My only thought would be the RAF would want it to carry a small number of nuclear bombs to hit USSR as an RAF attempt to use a small tactical force as a strategic V-bomber force?
 
I agree that lack of money was a problem with European procurements, especially after ww2.
However, I'll not agree with your statement that Eurofighter was an 'uncompromised air-to-air machine' - it was not, due to high RCS and lack of thrust vectoring.

Why have you decided that Typhoon has a 'high' RCS? What are you comparing it to?

No idea where they got the numbers from but Global Security seem to think it has a smaller RCS than virtually all their contemporaries.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm
 
The F-117s modus operandi looks to me as drawing from what Mosquito did in ww2.

...
The idea that you need to have thrust vectoring to be truly highly manuverable isn't really correct. Thrust vectoring is heavy and for some aircraft that have very good natural aerodynamic characteristics it s benefits do not outweigh thus weight penalty, or are at least do not enough to justify the extra expense and maintenance costs.

Thrust vectoring, when/if installed, made Su-30 more maneuverable than Su-27/30 versions without the VT, and I think that we can agree that Su-27 family was very maneuverable from the outset. It is not heavy, since we know it was an addition to the aircraft already in production. The '3D' nozzles were installed away from the centre of gravity, meaning that any excessive weight (had it existed) would've made aircraft unstable.
The right excuse for non-installation of thrust vectoring is 'this or that country either does not want to spend money on it, or it does not have the money', plain and simple.

Aircraft like the F-22 which sacrificed a lot of aerodynamic optimisation for low observability shaping, have to use thrust vectoring to brute force their high manueverability. Even then the Typhoon is a superior close quarters combatant, especially during the merge to dog fighting where its manuever ability at supersonic speeds is exceptional.

Is the 1st line an opinion, or proven fact? I'd say an opinion.
After the days of biplanes, Oscars and Zeros, going for a maneuverability as the 1st thing for a fighter was proven wrong. Zeros lost to Hellcats, 109s lost to P-51s, Migs lost to the F-4/15/16.
Typhoon ( or any other 'classic', non-stealth fighter) vs. a stealth fighter means that 'classic' has 1st to dodge missiles incoming, while pilot is questioning him 'who is actually lobbing those missiles at me?'. The wide gapping intakes helping the stealth attacker to get firing solution dozens of miles away.

LPI is only a temporary solution, and highly likely to be rendered inffective in a jamming heavy environment. increases in the effectiveness of onboard signal processing is likely to lead to the point where LPI simply isn't. Whilst straight jamming has far more life time potential than an RCS shaping + LPI combination.

The usage of stealth/low observable A/C does not mean that airborne jammer is somehow forbidden. Quirk might be that having no jammers around, or a low number means that low observable A/C still can operate, the 'classic' is in trouble.
LPI is perhaps two decades around, does not look like a temporary solution.


You could improve the LPI but there is only so much that can be done, and the diminishing returns likely escalate quite quickly, and reach what is effectively a hard ceiling. However your opponent will likely always have access to more powerful hammers and better signal processors.

RCS reduction is of course useful for air combat, but once you start sacrificing aerodynamic performance for it, the costs start to outweigh the benefits. Unless of course you subscribe to the BVR + LPI godmode win strategy being viable.

Too many 'likely' qualifires to make a response. The battle between electronics measures and counter-measures is a see-saw one.
Neither F-22 nor T-50 are sarificing performance because they employ low observability features, neither is slower than Eurocanards. BVR plus low observability result in ability to strike 1st, and was used in last 25-30 years with success, BVR a decade or two longer.


Well that really depends, that statement was possibly somewhat true in the 90s and even early 2000s but subsequently that isn't true so much anymore. Even the USAF has started to push the once vaunted 'super stealth' F-35 as a forward electronic warfare platform.

The USAF has no other combat aircraft to use, so F-35 became do-it-all. BTW, I don't rate F-35 that high - European airforces need an affordbale fighter that is vastly better than F-16C, while USAF needs a bomb hauler better than F-16/F-15E/F-117/A-10 - and IMO F-35 can't do all of that. Toss in the need for the Harrier replacement and cost overruns are not surprising.

The Russians effort has far less LO features than American designs and is very much about keeping aerodynamic capability. The Russians and the Europeans hugely invested in Jammng technology. As is the US Navy. The idea that the stealth costs more than jamming in development is also very wrong. The electronics required for jamming and signal processing is very high cost, and large amounts of money has been poured into that area. If the UK had wanted to it could have had an indigenous deep strike stealth aircraft by now. Money was not the issue, instead that a great deal of people outside the USAF were not on the BVR death spam hype train.

I don't buy it that electronics for jamming are of higher cost than developing a brand new aircraft. Electronics can draw from commercial stuff that makes great strides as we speak, but low-observable A/C can't do that.
I'm not sure why you did not include the USAF into air force that invests into jamming. The BVR is not 'death spam hype', the BVR air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles are in European inventories for decades now. I'm not sure what part of it's armed forces UK will delete in order to acquire, in numbers, an own deep strike aircraft on their own.
The T-50 combines shaping, internal missile bay(s) and Materials in order to lower it's observability. Don't think that non-classified sources can tell exactly how the T-50 compares with, say, F-22 in stealth.

As for the Chinese, I'm uncertain exactly what they are up to. They appear to be following the late 90s American full stealth model. Whether that is because they believe it will be effective from their own research, or out of cargo cultism, I don't know.
Finally none of this to say that radical RCS reduction on aircraft is a universally a bad idea. It is a highly viable strategy for deep strike aircraft like the B-2. Just not really worth the costs for air combat.

As above - not being seen until too late is an asset.
 
Why have you decided that Typhoon has a 'high' RCS? What are you comparing it to?

No idea where they got the numbers from but Global Security seem to think it has a smaller RCS than virtually all their contemporaries.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

The Typhoon (without missiles?) is listed at that site as with 1/2 of RCS of Rafale (also without missiles?). It's RCS is 100 times greater than of the F-35 (only internal weapons?), and 167 times greater than of F-117. Four orders of magnitude greater than of F-22?
 
The Typhoon (without missiles?) is listed at that site as with 1/2 of RCS of Rafale (also without missiles?). It's RCS is 100 times greater than of the F-35 (only internal weapons?), and 167 times greater than of F-117. Four orders of magnitude greater than of F-22?

Both aircraft specifically designed to be 'stealthy'.

I wouldn't describe an aircraft which (apparently) has 1/15 the RCS of an Su-27, 1/25 of an F-15, ~1/3 of the F-16C and 1/2 that of the Rafale and F/A-18 as having a 'high' RCS...
 
The US 'teen fighters' will not do well in comparison of RCS vs. the 20 years younger Typhoon. Advent of composite materials brought down the RCS on it's own, but it took careful shaping fuselage and internal armament storage to cut the RCS several orders of magnitude under what it was for Typhoon or rafale.
Let's arm the Rafale/Typhoon/F-18E and compare them with RCS of armed F-22/T-50.
 
RCS of armed F-22/T-50.

Is that carrying internal weapons only or a realistic external load?

Is the T-50 even in service yet?

How often do you think any of the aircraft involved ever actually achieve the touted RCS and how much difference do you think alternative detection methods, experienced radar operators ('I've just seen a bird doing Mach 2 over our coast', 'I don't think that was a bird mate...'), unit tactics etc make?

I mean, the Serbs managed to shoot an F-117 down with a 35 year old missile system after allegedly detecting it between 50 and 60km out by putting a little bit of thought into what they were doing and taking advantage of some poor NATO choices...
 
The US 'teen fighters' will not do well in comparison of RCS vs. the 20 years younger Typhoon. Advent of composite materials brought down the RCS on it's own, but it took careful shaping fuselage and internal armament storage to cut the RCS several orders of magnitude under what it was for Typhoon or rafale.
Let's arm the Rafale/Typhoon/F-18E and compare them with RCS of armed F-22/T-50.
What about the dates of the things?

T50 - First flight 29 January 2010
F22 - First flight 7 September 1997

Typhoon First flight 27 March 1994 but EAP 6 August 1986
Rafale First flight 4 July 1986

F18 First flight 18 November 1978
F15 First flight 27 July 1972

I think we are talking about 3 distinct generations with the Euro canards (and T50) being slow to introduce due to end of the CW?
 
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