Es Geloybte Aretz - a Germanwank

[Arrix85]

Nevertheless, I wouldn't rule out annexations. As IOTL, though, not many Germans will go there. But one thing is for certain: any Jew that has a hard life in the East will be glad to relocate to newly annexed German territories in the East. The Jewish Homeland ITTL might be a state within the German Empire...

Just the possibility of this happening is incredible (this is Alternate History at its best)

 

[Eurofed]

If opportunity arises, though, the prospect of some additional new states on former Russian territory fully dependent on German support and with a native German elite are nice to have.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't rule out annexations. As IOTL, though, not many Germans will go there. But one thing is for certain: any Jew that has a hard life in the East will be glad to relocate to newly annexed German territories in the East. The Jewish Homeland ITTL might be a state within the German Empire...

Yep.

Following this line of thought, I would point out that if France joins the war, and although TTL Germany isn't going to annex large swaths of French territory for various reasons, it is still quite likely that a few relatively minor border adjustments would take place to annex certain ethnic-German or economically/strategically-valuable territories. This would in all likelihood mean Luxemburg (if it is France to invade the Low Countries, they are much more likely to accept becoming a German state), Belfort, Longwy, and Briey. Even more so since Italy would surely get Nice, Savoy, and Corsica no matter what, and so make a precedent.

 

[wietze]

On the other hand, the baltic is ideal territory for the use of MTB's.
Are the Germans developing/using them there at the moment?

 

[The Blue-Eyed Infidel]

that's a conservative-völkisch idea and I doubt that the young Emperor or the parties he'll more and more rely on will support that.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't rule out annexations. As IOTL, though, not many Germans will go there. But one thing is for certain: any Jew that has a hard life in the East will be glad to relocate to newly annexed German territories in the East. The Jewish Homeland ITTL might be a state within the German Empire...

Intriguing...

Another source of possible settlers for any newly annexed territories might be the Volga Germans; after a long war, and the attentions of the Patriotic Union, I can see many of them being willing to emigrate.

TB-EI

 

[carlton_bach]

On the other hand, the baltic is ideal territory for the use of MTB's.
Are the Germans developing/using them there at the moment?

Outside of their fleet bases in Wilhelmshaven and Kiel, the German presence in the Baltic is largely limited to torpedo boat flotillas. Their bases are Travemünde, Rostock, Swinemünde and Danzig (there are also North Sea torpedo boat flotillas out of Hamburg, Cuxhaven and Bremen). German MTBs are small by the standards of the British and especially French fleets, and not considered truly seaworthy craft, but they are fast. The latest generation (about a third of the total establishment) is powered by oil-fired turbines, which gives them both a few knots of extra speed and room to carry four more torpedoes than the old ones. The first generation (built 1897-1903) run at 26 knots top speed, the second generation (built since 1903) can manage 34 knots. German torpedo boat doctrine is aggressive, focusing on mine and torpedo warfare targeting capital ships.

 

[carlton_bach]

You are forgetting that the Baltic was Teutonic land for quite some time and Prussia was the successor state to the Teutonic state

Pretty much every German historian alive ITTL will tell you that Reval, Riga and Kurland are German soil, civilised by the culture-bringing mission of the German people. Of course there is the problem that they are full of Russians and Balts. That doesn't mean they're automatically targets for annexation, though, and certainly not for forcible Germanisation. The range of opinions on that in the political parties in Berlin runs from "Freedom for our Slavic Brothers" and "Who cares, once we have built internationalist Socialism" to "Fate has given our superior race dominion over these subhumans who sadly will now become extinct. Let's help."

 

[wietze]

Outside of their fleet bases in Wilhelmshaven and Kiel, the German presence in the Baltic is largely limited to torpedo boat flotillas. Their bases are Travemünde, Rostock, Swinemünde and Danzig (there are also North Sea torpedo boat flotillas out of Hamburg, Cuxhaven and Bremen). German MTBs are small by the standards of the British and especially French fleets, and not considered truly seaworthy craft, but they are fast. The latest generation (about a third of the total establishment) is powered by oil-fired turbines, which gives them both a few knots of extra speed and room to carry four more torpedoes than the old ones. The first generation (built 1897-1903) run at 26 knots top speed, the second generation (built since 1903) can manage 34 knots. German torpedo boat doctrine is aggressive, focusing on mine and torpedo warfare targeting capital ships.

was wondering, because successes with torpedoboats might easily lead to a few wrong learned lessons

 

[carlton_bach]

was wondering, because successes with torpedoboats might easily lead to a few wrong learned lessons

They already have. German torpedo boat doctrine is poor, though. They'll figure that out quickly.

 

[carlton_bach]

15 February 1906, Essen

The Villa Hügel was designed to impress, and Hershel Kanitzky was willing to be impressed. Of course, he was also shrewd enough not to let himself be manipulated by a crude display of wealth. He had spent enough time in Russia to understand that size and ornateness did not equal any real importance or effectiveness. Still, for all it being vulgar and bombastic, Villa Hügel had a sense of might that was refreshing. It hammered home to you that its owner would not take any disrespect from anyone. It broadcast overbearing pride. And it was owned by a Yid.

Well, not a Yid in the sense Kanitzky had ever thought of using the term. He had considered himself a fairly worldly person, in no way pious or virtuous. Walther Krupp zu Rathenau, though, did not even sound or look Jewish. He did not feel Jewish. If Kanitzky had not known, he would have taken him for any German industrialist. Of course, this was a conspiracy, and conspirators could not well apply the smell test to everyone they cooperated with. Rathenau was a powerful influence in the Jewish movement. His money spoke as eloquently as Herzl's and Nordau's pens. Speaking of which, Kanitzky had bad news.

“Nordau will not come. He has formally declined the invitation to the congress, citing other engagements. Of course, he is needed in Paris for the elections. I am afraid, though, he considers all we are doing a distraction from the true goal.”

Rathenau sighed. He had feared as much. Zionists were admirable men, but they could be rather boneheaded about the realities of the situation. Damn, why was it so hard to get them to devote their energhy to doing something for their Jewish brethren here and now instead of waiting for the remote chance to send them to Palestine?

“All right,” Rathenau said. “Have you heard anything from Wolffsohn?”

You could send invitations by post, but there were things that needed to be discussed through trustworthy messengers. Kanitzky may not have been a Zionist, but everyone agreed he was trustworthy.

“He will come, and he is willing to use his influence for our cause. He is wary of it, though. He actually said he didn't want us to be too successful, or the situation might get too good. Funny, the things a firm belief can do to someone's mind.”

Shuffling papers, Rathenau made notes in the folder labeled “Lemberg Conference”. He was not officially inviting, but the funding was his. That had to be worth something.

“All right,” he said. “I know that Otto Warburg is willing to help with humanitarian things. He also agreed to manage the emigration fund. You've heard about that, I assume? The Jewish Militia is sending money to Germany so they can go to America if the Poles sell them down the river. They are remarkable young men, aren't they?”

Kanitzky nodded. “I think I met Brigadier Ferber before the war, actually. Back in Radun, when I was ferrying money and travel papers. They say he was already thinking of a military career back then. He wanted to emigrate to America and go to West Point.”

Rathenau shrugged. “They'll say a lot about people. I doubt he had anything like that in mind. He's pretty good for all that, though.” He absently leafed through the guest list. “Zangwill, Oppenheimer, have we heard anything from Ussishkin?”

Kanitzky's face fell. “I'm sorry, Sir. He was in Berdishev when the Patriotic Union came to the shtetl. Some refugees say they saw the gendarmerie arrest him, but his name doesn't appear on any official court list out of Russia. Alav-ha shalom.”

It needed not mean anything. There were secret tribunals these days, and administrative detention. Still, it was not encouraging. If the Patriotic Union men had gotten their hands on him – if they had figured out who he was, they might have contented themselves with humiliating him. If he was just another Yid, though, they could well simply have killed him, or left him to starve or freeze to death on the road.

“Anyone out there who takes a more – active stance?” Rathenau asked after a second's silence.

“Israel Zangwill came out with the idea that the Jews should rule the pale of settlement when the revolution has succeeded.” Kanitzky answered with a bitter smile.

“We'll put that with the motion to provide wings for pigs.” Still, Rathenau thought. It was a thought worth holding. What should the status of the Jews be after the whole thing ended? What could they ask at the conference? Damn, if the Zionist fools could just once agree to stand up and be counted for something that didn't have anything to do with their precious Judenstaat! Their prestige would have helped. He idly wondered on which side Herzl would have come down.

 

[Adler]

Two years ago I was in Riga and saw the remnants of the German heritage there. There are still German graves and church inscriptions. In OTL most of the Baltic nobility was German (Lambsdorff, von Tiesenhausen,...) and also most town inhabitants were German, but not the rural population. In TTL I expect the German and Baltic population becoming more fusioned because of the Czar's policies. The Latvians and Estonians are also protestants as the Prussians are. Given the history of the Prussians, the German nationalists could argue, they are Germans or kind of Prussians, too. This is not as wrong as it looks like on the first view. The Masurians were Poles. And the Lithunians in Germany and Memelland were Lithunians. But both saw themselves as East Prussians and Germans! As they had no cultural ties than the language to the Catholic Poles and Lithunians.

Of course, the Latvians or Estonians doesn't feel "German". But if they were liberated in the way to become a member state of Germany, including minority rights, or stay under Russian tyranny or fear of being invaded the next moment the Russians have a possibility, they will soon accept to be a kind of protectorate. And considering the feelings for the Russians in Latvia or Estonia OTL and today...

The Lithunians are catholic and have much less points of common culture with the Germans though.

Adler

 

[Monty Burns]

Two years ago I was in Riga and saw the remnants of the German heritage there. There are still German graves and church inscriptions. In OTL most of the Baltic nobility was German (Lambsdorff, von Tiesenhausen,...) and also most town inhabitants were German, but not the rural population. In TTL I expect the German and Baltic population becoming more fusioned because of the Czar's policies. The Latvians and Estonians are also protestants as the Prussians are. Given the history of the Prussians, the German nationalists could argue, they are Germans or kind of Prussians, too. This is not as wrong as it looks like on the first view. The Masurians were Poles. And the Lithunians in Germany and Memelland were Lithunians. But both saw themselves as East Prussians and Germans! As they had no cultural ties than the language to the Catholic Poles and Lithunians.

Of course, the Latvians or Estonians doesn't feel "German". But if they were liberated in the way to become a member state of Germany, including minority rights, or stay under Russian tyranny or fear of being invaded the next moment the Russians have a possibility, they will soon accept to be a kind of protectorate. And considering the feelings for the Russians in Latvia or Estonia OTL and today...

The Lithunians are catholic and have much less points of common culture with the Germans though.

Adler

A liberal, democratic Germany, economically healthy and peaceful, that annexes parts of the Baltics and grants them extensive minority rights actually has a very good chance in Germanizing these lands over the years.

It also has a good chance in alienating Britain, though. A couple of independent buffer states is ok with Britain. Germany stretching up to Reval is something different.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

Do not forget that the upper classes of both Estonia and Latvia were German (or Balts considering themselves German). And Russians were small minority.

 

[Larus Marinus]

Historically, the United/Grand Baltic Duchy was a proposal by the German and Russian nobility of Livonia. Wilhelm II turned the proposal down for a variety of reasons, most important of which were probably related to losing the war and facing unrest at home. Perhaps a similar offer will be made to the young Kaiser of this TL as well, even if annexing the Baltic countries won't be on his original agenda? I could see him turning it down as well, albeit for different reasons though.

Ah, I've been reading this for a while now but could never think of anything to post. It's too good for complaints and posting solely to compliment such an awesome TL seemed a bit redundant. Keep up the good work!

 

[Monty Burns]

Historically, the United/Grand Baltic Duchy was a proposal by the German and Russian nobility of Livonia. Wilhelm II turned the proposal down for a variety of reasons, most important of which were probably related to losing the war and facing unrest at home. Perhaps a similar offer will be made to the young Kaiser of this TL as well, even if annexing the Baltic countries won't be on his original agenda? I could see him turning it down as well, albeit for different reasons though.

I'm convinced that a similar offer will be made ITTL as well. And as I expect the Russians to loose badly, I think that it has a decent chance of realizing.

The question is merely how those Baltic states that will emerge are related to Germany. An independent Baltic duchy under some German prince is likely - taking a German prince for a new kingdom is the traditional approach, after all, and the British won't object that tradition. There were ideas IOTL, though, that Wilhelm II should be Baltic duke in personal union or some similar binding to Germany. I'm not sure if Britain would be happy with this - or the Emperor for that matter.

All in all, I would expect the war to spawn kingdoms of Poland, Lithuania, Finland, and a Baltic duchy (or duchies of Livland, Courland and Estonia or some weird combination thereof), all constitutional monarchies under a new branch of a German ruling house but not, but none of them member states of the German Empire.

 

[Larus Marinus]

The historical proposal involved the Grand Baltic Duchy being made part of the Kingdom of Prussia with the Duke of Mecklenburg as head of state, I believe. It being a vassal/dependency of the Prussian Crown rather than the German Empire as a whole - if there is a distinction at this point - could probably work quite well. Seriously doubt young Wilhelm would approve of the actions and attitude of the Baltic German and Russian nobility against the local Latvian and Estonian peasantry, however.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

And there you are wrong. It would have been an idependent state like Poland, Ukraine and Finland.

 

[Larus Marinus]

According to Wikipedia:


"The proposed United Baltic Duchy[1] also known as the Grand Duchy of Livonia[2] was a state proposed by the Baltic German nobility and exiled Russian nobility [3] after the Russian revolution and German occupation of the Courland, Livonian and Estonian governorates of the Russian Empire.
The idea comprised the lands in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Belarus and included the creation of a Duchy of Courland and a Duchy of Estonia and Livonia that would be in personal union with the Crown of Prussia [4] under the German Empire's occupied territory Ober Ost before the end of World War I covering the territories of the Medieval Livonia what are now Latvia and Estonia."

Now, I am not claiming that Wikipedia is the most reliable site out there for researching history, but [4] links back to a book about the Baltic States from 1938, and pretty much outright quotes from it. I don't know how reliable *that* source is either though.

It only says it would be in personal union with Prussia, come to think of it. It could be an independent state with close ties to Germany/Prussia through having the same monarch.

 

[Barbarossa Rotbart]

And read different in a much more recent history book. BTW i would not take things for granted that are written in a German book from late 1930s (Nazi Propaganda).

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

Ah, I've been reading this for a while now but could never think of anything to post. It's too good for complaints and posting solely to compliment such an awesome TL seemed a bit redundant. Keep up the good work!

I know what you mean. I've been reading from the beginning, and it's one of my favorites, but I don't have anything intelligent to add. I just wish there were a "like" button.

 

[Larus Marinus]

And read different in a much more recent history book. BTW i would not take things for granted that are written in a German book from late 1930s (Nazi Propaganda).

Any recommendations or examples of books concerning the United Baltic Duchy? I am interested in the topic, and would like to know more. The wiki article on it always seemed dreadfully lacking, and I guess I know why now.

(Though the one referenced in the article seemed more British than German, given the title.)